!-- Beacon Ads Ad Code -->

Sponsor Ad:

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Our drummer is too loud. Crazy right?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I’m sorry, there is only really one answer to this - your drummer is crap and needs to learn how to play. Drums don’t have to be super loud.

    You should start by sitting the guy down, in love, with the worship leader, and senior pastor, and say ‘we love you and we support you, but we need to work together to make the volume work for our congregation'
    Please check out my Christmas Blog at www.12daysofjesus.blogspot.co.nz

    Comment


    • #17
      We're encountering this at my new church, but the drummer is in his 30s and appears to be very experienced. He also plays with full "can" headphones. Here is a clip of a drummer using some rods ( Vic Firth Rute 505s ).
      So far the music pastor says we're not going to use rods, but seems to have no other suggestions on toning down the drums. I'm assuming either the drummer doesn't want to use rods, or electronic drums, or will quit if asked to change. ?? When he stays on the high-hats its good, but from where I sit out in the pews, when he smacks the snare or ride cymbal it briefly wipes out every other instrument and vocals.
      I don't get it. I've played with a good drummer, while I led on guitar and it was fantastic. I've also played without drums and didn't really suffer all that much. Since the pastor leads on acoustic piano, maybe he just loves drums. The guitars are pretty much inaudible in the house ( they use in-ear monitors only with no amps ). Its tough when you have some controlled sound sources and others where the sound booth has no control.




      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maAqyhwlReI
      Carvin AE185 guitar

      Comment


      • #18
        Getting our drummer some multi-rods to use instead of regular sticks changed everything for us. They give a much lighter sound which helps tremendously with volume issues.

        We joke about 'playing with Q-tips' - sometimes that analogy can be helpful in explaining how much lighter their touch needs to be.

        Comment


        • #19
          Playing drums in a cage DOES NOT lessen the volume... it just redirects it.

          If a drummer needs earplugs / noise cancelling headphones than they are playing too loud.

          Never turn up the monitors / headphones when a drummer is too loud, as that makes them feel like they need to play louder. Do the opposite & turn them down.

          Hot-rods are rarely the answer. They alter the tone (sound) of drums. They can still be played very loudly (you just have to hit harder). Lighter sticks might help, but probably not.

          I suggest some informal jam-session where an unplugged group plays... really you just need acoustic guitar, vocal, and drummer. Talk about the need to listen to each other, and the need to balance the sound. When you're playing live, play the same way & the sound tech will turn up the volumes as needed for the congregation. You do have the drums mic'd, right?

          Comment


          • #20
            I guess we are very blessed in that we have never had a problem with drummers that will play, and enjoy playing an electronic kit. And I suppose that's why my tolerance level for the dinosaurs that insist on acoustic kits has worn so thin. The point is the music, and whatever contributes the most to the music is what you choose. Whatever detracts from the music is what you don't choose.

            It's rare you can ever get an acoustic set to sound as polished and balanced as an electronic kit. It's a simple fact that without constant tuning they simply can't compete. Not to mention you can't make a Ludwig acoustic set sound like a Rogers acoustic set. But you can do that and more on an electronic kit with a simple selection at the brain of the unit. More importantly, outside of a controlled studio environment it's is impossible to mic an acoustic set to get the balanced sound and clarity of every drum and cymbal in the same way you can with an electronic kit simply by plugging it in. It's almost embarrassing to me to hear how bad most acoustic sets sound live when you're used to hearing an electronic kit.

            I can only come to one conclusion. The only reason for an acoustic set in most smaller indoor situations is to serve the ego of the drummer, not to best serve the music.
            The Posse Band live performance tracks can be heard by CLICKING HERE

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by DunedinDragon View Post
              I can only come to one conclusion. The only reason for an acoustic set in most smaller indoor situations is to serve the ego of the drummer, not to best serve the music.
              I totally disagree. An electronic set is a poor substitute for an acoustic set of drums. They lack the real feel, head response, and in most cases don't sound like a real set of drums. A skilled drummer, while hard to find, can play softly when needed.

              Comment


              • #22
                Bottom line, a skilled drummer can make acoustic & electric drums both sound great... and an unskilled person that hits things will struggle with both.

                There are MANY levels of electric drums. The cheap ones with rubber heads do not compare to real drums, but many electric drums have triggers under heads.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by pianomandan View Post
                  Bottom line, a skilled drummer can make acoustic & electric drums both sound great... and an unskilled person that hits things will struggle with both.

                  There are MANY levels of electric drums. The cheap ones with rubber heads do not compare to real drums, but many electric drums have triggers under heads.
                  While I agree with everything you've said, there are still a couple of caveats I would add. Bear in mind I'm looking at this problem from the perspective of production...or the end point which is how the overall sound of the music comes out. The drums are only one component of that as is volume of the drums.

                  A skilled and CONSCIENTIOUS drummer can make both acoustic and electronic drums sound great. Aside from playing the drums, they have to be able and willing to tune the drums to best fit the feel of the music, and to keep them tuned. This is the main weak point of acoustic drums in practice. As with all other instruments, what sounds great by itself may not blend well with others. Guitars, keyboards, and bass can make these adjustments pretty quickly and easily. Not so much on an acoustic kit. It takes a lot of time and diligence on an acoustic set. A GOOD electronic kit puts the skilled drummer on a level playing field with the other instruments in this regard.

                  But there are many things the drummer can't control when it comes to the sound of the drums within a live performing environment. Mainly the clarity and distinction of each piece of the drum kit. Isolation with a sound shield and head triggers can help greatly in this regard. But that still leaves cymbals and high hats that need mics. And once you add mics you add cross-feed and ambience to the mix.

                  Of course all of these things can be addressed on an acoustic kit and commonly are in larger live productions with unlimited budgets. But that doesn't typically fit the profile of a church setting. When you look at all the things that acoustic sets require in order to compete with the sound and controllability of a high-end electronic kit, it just seems unreasonable to insist on an acoustic kit in a smaller live environment such as most churches.

                  Believe me, I've heard all if not most of the arguments against electronic kits. But, aside from the arguments that involve a lack of understanding about high-end modeling in this day and age, it typically boils down to not having the "feel" of an acoustic set. They're not saying they CAN'T play them...they're saying they prefer not to..which ultimately supports my point about ego.
                  The Posse Band live performance tracks can be heard by CLICKING HERE

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I think you have the ego thing wrong. But we can agree to disagree.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Deuce
                      I totally disagree. An electronic set is a poor substitute for an acoustic set of drums. They lack the real feel, head response, and in most cases don't sound like a real set of drums. A skilled drummer, while hard to find, can play softly when needed.
                      A lot of it depends on what they use for the electronic drums. If they get a higher end Roland or Yamaha, for example, they are pretty close. If you try it on the $299 Simmons GC special, not so much.

                      I play guitar and bass. I can play drums, have done it on occasion, on both acoustic and e-drums.

                      From the guitar and bass perspective, we don't play on stage with our '65 Fender Twin Reverb and Ampeg full 8x10 bass stack anymore. Now the true purist in us wouldn't step on stage and plug in to anything but their old-school tube amp and full stacks. But we had to let go of our sacred cows and either run smaller tube amps (like a 5-10w) enclosed off in the corner and miked (still hard to manage), but most likely some kind of modeling amp or floor MFX unit. Bass is running direct through maybe a SansAmp or small kickback combo with a DI out. Even piano players had to move from an acoustic baby grand to a keyboard, giving up their full action for semi-weighted 76-keys.

                      I play through a Digitech RP500, using a '57 Fender Deluxe Tweed model. Is it the same? Of course not. Can I make it sound good, keep my sound crew happy, and position myself to NOT be a barrier to the congregation or the team experiencing worship? Absolutely.

                      Knowing the other major instruments on the teams had to give up something to move forward, I have no sympathy for drummers who don't want to budge. Acoustic kit? Ok- use rods, brushes, and manage your sound. Or, better yet, get a decent e-drum set. No, they aren't the same. I'm sorry. But you can surely tolerate the differences for a half dozen songs on a Sunday morning.
                      Last edited by Mike on Bass; 05-27-2014, 02:20 PM. Reason: running RP500, not 300
                      If we want to go places we haven't been, we will have to do things we haven't done.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        +1000 Mike!!!

                        Not to mention 99.9% of the audience can't tell the difference.

                        By the way, that's cool Mike. I also play through a '57 Fender Deluxe..at least on some songs. Other times I play on a 65 Twin, an AC15 Vox or several others in my Mustang IV amp..
                        Last edited by DunedinDragon; 05-27-2014, 01:42 PM.
                        The Posse Band live performance tracks can be heard by CLICKING HERE

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I play through a Super Sonic 22 and a Mustang Floor. But my church has a fairly high volume praise set. As a former drummer, I can hear an electronic set right from the start of a song. The bass is stronger and the cymbals just don't sound realistic to me.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I agree, there is a distinct difference in e-drums. Some things don't sound the same and it does take time to get used to. On a good set of e-drums, a lot of the parameters are tweakable- different zones, sensitivities, 'models', etc. The drummer using it needs to own the sound, learn the machine, and make some adjustments.

                            On the sets I played, they were higher end Roland, but a little older. The cymbal pads were pretty responsive, but still felt a bit like Tupperware lids. A lot of the harmonics are missing. But in the end it still sounded ok for what we were doing.

                            Even at that, the differences are usually pretty subtle and nothing a good musician can't make work.
                            If we want to go places we haven't been, we will have to do things we haven't done.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              One thing you learn fairly quickly about electronic modeling whether it be on an amplifier or a drum kit is you have to expect to do some learning on how to adjust the parameters because the factory presets are never going to be adequate. The modeling software these days is pretty sophisticated and you can get these systems to come so close they'll fool the vast majority of the people that hear them in double blind tests. But it takes time and patience to learn how to adjust all the parameters to get the sound where you want it.

                              On our Roland TD-15KV we don't use any of the factory presets. We purchased a set of after-market presets from V-Expressions LTD. These are MUCH better researched and baselined against real sets of typical drums (Rogers, Ludwig, Gretch, etc.) and provided a better starting point than the factory presets. The only thing we've really had to adjust is the volume level and ambience of the cymbals and high hat to better emulate the sound produced when you mic actual cymbals and high-hats in a recording studio. It's also important in modeling to be consistent with your approach across the band. In our case we use modeling extensively on the various instruments, but we chose to focus on reproducing a studio-based sound rather than a live sound.

                              You have to bear in mind that realistic modeling is based on processing power, and we can all attest to the leaps in processing power we've seen in typical off-the-shelf computers in the last several years. The same progress has been made in the digital processors used for modeling.

                              You're always going to have the purists who claim they can hear the difference. But it's always amazing how many of these purists get fooled when confronted with a double blind test on YouTube.
                              Last edited by DunedinDragon; 05-29-2014, 01:47 AM.
                              The Posse Band live performance tracks can be heard by CLICKING HERE

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                We have had good success in our church (200 attending, room will probably seat almost 300) with our acoustic set, but a lot that is due to a good all-around musician as the drummer who uses ONLY rods (both Hot and Cool). We also took some time and some strategically placed gaffers tape to tune the drums and cut down on some of the extra ringing.

                                Acoustic Drums: No mics, not shield, no headphones or earbuds, has a hot-spot monitor to hear the worship leader's guitar and voice, not much else goes in there.
                                Bass guitar: medium sized bass amp linked to a larger subwoofer.
                                Acoustic Guitar: Direct box into sound system.
                                Grand piano: Miced into sound system, personal hot spot monitor.
                                Vocalists: mics
                                Electric Keyboard: Direct box into sound system
                                (Bass, singers, keyboard, guitarist all hear from 2 main floor wedge monitors....Bass and drums are next to each other and can hear fine.)

                                The whole volume is not turned up that high, even though we obviously have to set levels to fit the drum set...with the rods it is not that high.

                                We only use a partial drum shield a few times a year near Christmas and Easter when we have a choir, We put it on one side of the drums to keep the cymbals from bleeding into the choir mics.

                                It may bug those used to in-ears, but it works for us, and We like the "live" "acoustic" feel of it.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X