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Worshiping prophetically

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  • Worshiping prophetically

    While I was going through some pages of the book "Manifest Presence" I came acorss this scripture:

    2.Chronicle 25
    1 David, together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. Here is the list of the men who performed this service: 2 From the sons of Asaph: Zaccur, Joseph, Nethaniah and Asarelah. The sons of Asaph were under the supervision of Asaph, who prophesied under the king's supervision. 3 As for Jeduthun, from his sons: Gedaliah, Zeri, Jeshaiah, Shimei, Hashabiah and Mattithiah, six in all, under the supervision of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied, using the harp in thanking and praising the LORD. 4 As for Heman, from his sons: Bukkiah, Mattaniah, Uzziel, Shubael and Jerimoth; Hananiah, Hanani, Eliathah, Giddalti and Romamti-Ezer; Joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir and Mahazioth. 5 All these were sons of Heman the king's seer. They were given to him through the promises of God to exalt him. God gave Heman fourteen sons and three daughters. 6 All these men were under the supervision of their fathers for the music of the temple of the LORD, with cymbals, lyres and harps, for the ministry at the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun and Heman were under the supervision of the king. 7 Along with their relatives- all of them trained and skilled in music for the LORD- they numbered 288. 8 Young and old alike, teacher as well as student, cast lots for their duties.

    What do You think is this prophesying?
    The people weren't called to simply make nice music, they were called to prophecy, using this or that instrument.
    Where do we find this in today's worship culture? What does it mean? What do You think? How do You understand this?

  • #2
    Prophetic Worship

    Hi - Love your question... no, we don't see near enough of prophetic worship in most circles, it does happen and it is wonderful. If you are interested in learning more about it, I would suggest getting the minstral series from Ray Hughes' "Selah Ministries". It is like a 12 disk series on worship - amazing. Ray is a theologian and musicologist...

    Hope you find the answers you're searching for!

    Connie

    -----
    Voice of Hope Ministries
    www.voiceofhopeministries.com

    Comment


    • #3
      The modern definition of "prophecy" is not alway related to the biblical one.

      It's not more complicated than this: a PRIEST represents the people to God and a PROPHET represents God to the people.

      Remember when Saul (the King) was "found among the prophets"? He was simply speaking and declaring the Word of God which was something he wasn't known to do.

      In the case you mention, they aren't necessarily speaking of something to come in future. They are most likely just speaking the Word of God to the people. I believe at this particular point in history there was only ONE copy of the Word of God and it was stored in the Temple and only read once a year. So there was a definite need for the Word of God to be proclaimed by the Levites and the musicians and that was "prophesying"

      Whenever we speak what the Lord would say whether we are witnessing or making declarations or proclaiming His promises, THAT is prophecying according to the biblical definition.

      Yes, sometimes prophecy is speaking things that are yet to come but there is no requirement of an utterance being futuristic to be prophetic.
      Last edited by yod1948; 02-09-2009, 05:35 PM.
      8-)



      what? me worry?

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      • #4
        As followers of Jesus, we look to him as our ultimate Prophet, Priest and King.

        As our prophet, Jesus reveals to us by his Word and by the Holy Spirit the will of God for our salvation. (Westminster Shorter Catechism, Question 24.)

        So, the prophetic aspect of our worship means hearing the full counsel of God given to us in the Gospel. It means hearing the call to continual repentance and faith in Jesus. It means being encouraged to die to ourselves and live to Christ. It means being convicted of sin.

        That's got to be the starting point.

        Comment


        • #5
          I have the same view as yod about the prophetic ministry. Don Potter once said that the prophet (prophetic ministry/prophetic worship) calls the people back to God. This definition was very helpful.
          I either do not believe that prophetic means always things of the future. It's rather the word that God wants to release in that moment to call his people to him. And as You, yod, said this can be by everything, by witnessing, declaration, proclaimed promises, etc...that's true.

          Do You think that spontaneous worship is equal with prophetic worship?

          Comment


          • #6
            No. I do not believe spontaneous = prophetic.

            That's what's kind of happened in charismatic circles though. We have limited God's speaking to us to those times of "free" or "spontaneous worship, when in all actuality God is speaking to us every second of every day.

            Sure, God uses people, circumstances, Scripture, even nature to show us attributes about Himself. There are times when He speaks especially to our hearts in a way that is specifically for a group of people or an individual.

            I think if we take a view of "prophecy" similar to what yod and psalmsandhymns posted about, we are more likely to realize that prophetic worship is really and truly ANY worship that draws us towards God. Songs that sing about God and His goodness are prophetic. And the person singing them is worshiping prophetically, because they are representing God to those around them.

            Prophetic worship (imho) is a lot broader than any "style" or form of music. Just because people start waving warrior banners and dance like hippies to unplanned music progressions does NOT classify it as prophetic.

            Prophetic worship = worship that calls and points people towards the qualitites of God (which we know leads to repentance)...in the same way that the OT prophets called and pointed the people towards God.
            Associate Director of Worship & Media at St. Simons Community Church .He is also the content curator and editor here at The Worship Community.

            Comment


            • #7
              A song like "Lord, We Lift Your Name On High" is priestly (representing the people to God)

              A song like "You Shall Be Holy As I Am Holy" is prophetic (representing God to the People)


              So even spontaneously spoken (or sang) words can be either priestly or prophetic.

              If I start singing "we want to see Your face" it is priestly...but "Be strong in the Lord" would be prophetic.
              8-)



              what? me worry?

              Comment


              • #8
                What he said :P
                Associate Director of Worship & Media at St. Simons Community Church .He is also the content curator and editor here at The Worship Community.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Here's my question ... I've often heard (and even used) the concept that they were prophesying with their instruments ... as in ... not words, but instrumental "prophesy" ...

                  I remember on the old "Lift Him Up" by Ron Kenoly, he says on the song "Ancient of Days" during an instrumental solo jam, "O Prophesy" to Alex Acuna, who then plays a diddy on the flute.

                  Was he "prophesying"?

                  When they say "prophesy" with the tambourine - is the instrument serving as an accompanying device to verbal/vocal prophesy, or can you "prophesy" instrumentally?
                  Fred McKinnon, Pianist/Composer/Worship Leader
                  blog: www.fredmckinnon.com

                  Please check out my piano/instrumental music at:
                  www.soundcloud.com/FredMcKinnonMusic
                  www.youtube.com/c/FredMcKinnonMusic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by twc_admin View Post
                    Here's my question ... I've often heard (and even used) the concept that they were prophesying with their instruments ... as in ... not words, but instrumental "prophesy" ...

                    I remember on the old "Lift Him Up" by Ron Kenoly, he says on the song "Ancient of Days" during an instrumental solo jam, "O Prophesy" to Alex Acuna, who then plays a diddy on the flute.

                    Was he "prophesying"?

                    When they say "prophesy" with the tambourine - is the instrument serving as an accompanying device to verbal/vocal prophesy, or can you "prophesy" instrumentally?

                    Doesn't Alex Acuna play percussion?

                    This is a great point. I've used that phrase a few times when it was time for a solo also. In my opinion, it's just a way of metaphorically saying "make that instrument speak"
                    8-)



                    what? me worry?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      First...thanks for all the answers...it is very much what I thought too.

                      For my opinion of the last question...
                      I believe that music has the power to touch people anyway. I believe it is part of the nature of music. Otherwise people would not associate so much with music, also with secular music. Somehow it talks. And most of the time people react on the style of music if they like it or not. I do not belive that very much people listen first of all to the lyrics, but to the kind of music.

                      And so I believe that music that is under the control of the Spirit of God will talk too and has the power to draw people to God. I believe that God uses music to reveal something of himself....his love...his grace...his power...whatever. In the same way like we can use music to express something before God and make something beautiful to God, God can use the music either to touch the hearts of people.

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                      • #12
                        Yod -
                        You are right, wrong player - it was Justo Amario ... but can't that be VERY misleading ... to use "prophetic" as a "metaphor"?

                        Don't get me wrong - I'm not really convinced that it CANNOT be prophesy ... musical interludes have "spoken" to me before in ways words couldn't have ... but I don't know if the musical interlude just provided a medium where I could hear God's voice and see His truth, or if God uses the instrumental sound TO prophetically say it ... wild, eh?
                        Fred McKinnon, Pianist/Composer/Worship Leader
                        blog: www.fredmckinnon.com

                        Please check out my piano/instrumental music at:
                        www.soundcloud.com/FredMcKinnonMusic
                        www.youtube.com/c/FredMcKinnonMusic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Technically an instrument cannot speak. And the technical definitions of prophesy include "to speak."

                          Metaphorically, I get what you're saying yod.

                          That being said, I do believe God uses music as a conduit to touch and speak to our hearts. But the music itself (IMHO) is not prophesying, nor is the musician (if they are not speaking or singing)...it's God speaking...or more specifically the Spirit of God speaking to us.

                          When prophesying occurs in the Bible, it is usually spoken (and in some cases sung) so we know that music can be tied to prophecy, but the music itself is not prophecy. Is it? How can it be?

                          Like I said, music in a Biblical sense is a conduit through which we speak about God to others, speak to God, and that God speaks to us.
                          Last edited by russhutto; 02-12-2009, 10:55 AM.
                          Associate Director of Worship & Media at St. Simons Community Church .He is also the content curator and editor here at The Worship Community.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            As musicians, we tend to think of music in terms of notes and meter and melody and harmonies, etc...but the non-musician hears something else.

                            I often try to remember what it was like before I was a musician. I can remember actually "hearing" a message in a lead guitar solo...as if it were crying or something. Music DID speak to me. It DID say something. It DID mean something in a tangible way even though it isn't literally communicated.

                            And I agree with Rahel about music expressing the glory of God even without lyrics

                            That doesn't necessarily contradict what your saying, Fred, about music not being the dicscernable voice of God. I just bring it up to redundantly say that music does affect people completely separate from the lyrics. It sets an atmosphere for the lyrics to flow through...and music provides a kind of pleasure to the soul that man NEEDS....or music would never have been invented and practised by every culture since Tubal-cain.

                            One really horrible case of hearing a message in the music would be Charlie Manson and Helter Skelter. In the opposite way, I'm sure that some people would believe that they "hear" God speaking in Johanne Bach or Jeff Beck.
                            Last edited by yod1948; 02-12-2009, 03:32 PM.
                            8-)



                            what? me worry?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him, worship Him in spirit and in truth.

                              Music has a spiritual side to it. For an instrument to "speak" to the spirit of man is quite feasible, in my opinion. As many of us are writers, think of how you work to get the lyrical content in sync with the musical flavor. Watch a movie and guess what's going to happen, based on what the background music is playing. Think about Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon." Great Gig in the Sky with that haunting piano and Clare Torry's vocals. No words, but powerful.

                              I'm guessing that most people's hesitation to include instruments in the realm of prophesy is the modern, charismatic notion that prophecy is some form of godly fortune telling. Was it yod who said that priests represented people to God and prophets represented God to people? Spot on. Regardless of our understanding, the long and sort of the matter is that the Bible declares it to be. I don't understand grace either, but I sure have benefited from it.

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