Looking the Same
September 15, 2009
God calls us to be set apart.
2 Timothy 2:21
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
I have been part of several discussions recently regarding this question; Is it okay to use foul language, get tattoos, piercings or socially drink (just to name a few) in order to create opportunities to share the gospel?
One dear friend in the Artists Small Group that I lead described the church her son is involved with and how she attended a baptism and heard even leadership use foul language. She was trying to figure out how to justify this in her mind. Asking the group their opinion, she went on to describe the incredible life changing results she sees at this ministry. People experiencing authentic life change and maturity in Christ, how can this be?
My own kids have justified some decisions they have made in the same way. They are not afraid to go right out into the world, in places I would not go, in order to influence kids for Christ. Is that necessary? Or a justification to do and act like one wants to? The argument they use of course is that Jesus went in among the sinners and ate with them and formed relationships with them.
So the question is this I suppose. Do we need to look or act like those around us in order to ‘get in’ and form relationships that ultimately lead to opportunities to reach them for Christ?
Then the debate can transfer of course to the church itself. Contemporary vs. traditional model.
Our ministry is willing to use secular music on occasion even from some questionable artists if the message is the very best one we can find to support our teaching topic. And occasionally we get questioned about our decision. This is easily defended because our ministry was launched from the beginning to reach the lost, not to be a ministry just for believers. Within reason, what Satan intended for evil we can use for good!
My personal belief is that we never have to compromise to reach the lost. They are not looking for someone who looks and acts like they do. I suppose your appearance can definitely help with a first impression, nerdy vs. trendy. But beyond that when Jesus ate with sinners he never changed who he was or how he looked to gain their acceptance. They saw something authentic, unique and non-pharisaical that they had never seen before. And they wanted it!
So, what is your opinion; Should we as Christians only look and act a certain way?
If we keep to ourselves looking very conservative and only associate with believers for the most part, is this more pleasing to God?
Is it ok to purposefully look and act similar to the world to gain entrance into their circle of influence?
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That's a hard question to answer! Because it's more of an individual thing, really. Sure, there are some BIG things you probably shouldn't do as a christian ... but as far as what you're asking goes - I think it depends.
My best guess is this - your individual life should look changed to others. The crowd you hang with should notice a difference.
Does that mean no more social drinking? No - Jesus did that. But should you get sloshed? No - clearly a no-no in the Bible.
Foul language? Probably not ... but it goes much deeper than that - that whole let your yes be yes and your no be no thing.
So that's my stab at it, anyway!
You answered your own question. Jesus did NOT change who he was, unlike Satan who posed as a being from within the garden to sway Eve. Satan didn't show himself, he deceived, to gain entrance to their circle. Be the you God has made, the light reflecting you that makes you, you. If you act any other way, one has to ask, "which you is the real you?"
Nicely done, MITS!
Smitty
An interesting point you make was that Jesus was able to connect with the people because he was genuine, and non-pharsiacal.
A question for ourselves, are we being pharasitical (ie like the Pharasies, sorry for the spelling) by doing things because we think we "should" do those things and traditions.
Just throwing a stone among the pidgeons.
I hear people take the stance that Jesus hung with sinners to justify where and with who they hang quite often. There is some validity to it but Jesus didn't sit with the tax collectors and rip people off, lay with the prostitutes or take part in the temple with the money changers. He ate with them and taught them and they turned from their sins.
So, in short the post answered the question with the opening "God called us to be set apart". We should not look like the world. I agree I should "Be the me God has made" but there is still A LOT in me that God did not intend to be in me and I'm not going to accept it as "just me". People fall in that trap with all kinds of stuff. From out of control temper all the way to addiction. We all need to be careful we are not using our "beliefs" to make us feel comfortable about thing God never intended us to be comfortable about.
I won't even touch the social drinking thing because I don't have the time right now.
I'm glad Jesus didn't mind stepping out of eternity and into the frail and dirty robe of humanity to become one of us. I'm glad He "looked the same" as us. I'm glad that Jesus as a man was God with us.
The very fact that He came to be one of us, makes me very cautious about setting up some sort of religious box that I have to stay in in the name of being "set apart."
The bottom line is that we are called to be set apart. And that set apart-ness is because of who HE is in us, not who we claim we are, or try to be in our own efforts.
I get what the author is saying, but I for one WANT to look the same as those I'm trying to reach, because God Himself did so.
Yes, God says to "come as you are." Does that mean we stay that way? Not a jab, just a question.
My point is that we ARE the same. It's JESUS in us that makes the difference. I'm not saying that we should continue living sinful lives. I'm not saying that we should not pursue holiness.
What I am saying is that to take the whole "in the world but not of the world" comment and shape it into some sort of legalistic mumbo jumbo that creates a religious box is not being different, it's not being set apart, it's not the answer.
Sure, we ARE to be in the world, but not OF the world, but that has nothing to do with appearance, and in my opinion has nothing to do with who you hang out with either. If that were the case, Jesus would be a drunk and a tax collector.
We need to be light in darkness. The point of being in the world but not of the world has EVERYTHING to do with being salt and light. Let your light shine before men so that they will see your good works and glorify the Father. This is what I'm talking about.
To be the light and salt though I have to be where people are. I have to do, as GOD did, someting that bridges the gap. I have to "be" one of them. I don't mean putting on a mask, or changing who we are, but I mean genuinely walking where they walk and living outside of the four walls of what we call church.
The problem with the whole "not looking the same mentality" if taken to the extreme is that it creates dangerous sub-cultures of "Christianity" that lock themselves away inside a building or their house somewhere and they become so intent on not being like the world, that they lose any bit of common ground that they have with people who, when it's all said and done, are the same: human.
Be human. Not some fake wannabe superchristian.
Just for clarification I said "We should not look like the world" I meant look figuratively. I guess in some cases literally but I meant we should BE different.
The point I was trying to make is we can't use "Being In" and a license to "Be Of"
I suppose it's really quite simple ... (well, it's never really that simple) .... if trying to be "relevant" or to "look" or "sound" like them ... it causes us to sin ... we've missed it. Big Time.
So, it becomes an issue of "is this sin".
Then, it becomes "all things are OK, but not all things are profitable".
Truth is, only the Holy Spirit can give us the insight on the gray areas ... and if the Word of God is clear on something - take it for what it says!
I like this.
Awesome discussion guys...love it!
It's funny - I have always felt personally called to abstain from some things that other genuine believers are fine with, and I am totally not judgmental of the gray areas they feel free to enjoy!
What is hilarious are the characters I fill my house with - no lie - people that MOST Christ followers would avoid like the plague! For some reason I LOVE the unusual/artistic/creative/misunderstood people of this world and communicate quite freely with them! Isn't that weird?
I say this to make the point that - although I feel, for whatever reason, that God has required me to not partake in some things - it has not kept me from being among those who do!
So I agree - it's not about appearance - there I think, is a personal holiness that God calls each of us to separately. Some things as Fred says are clearly right or wrong and to be avoided, but others just don't profit us in anyway to participate in...and if there is a risk to our testimony - then I would just choose not to take a chance...
Be human. Not some fake wannabe superchristian.
There is a difference between being a clone and being relevant.
We should be the head and not the tail. We, of all people, should be the most original and innovative people on earth. Setting trends instead of following them...but that would require more work and human nature follows the path of least resistance.
We live in a world full of radical messages being multiplied through media of TV, movies, music, newspapers, internet, etc.
We preach the most radical of all messages; death on a cross. That will never be popular, but until we are resurrected to new and holy life it also won't be believable.
In summary, our outward appearance might help some people trust that we understand where they are coming from, but that will make no impact unless the individual carrying the witness is not a friend of the world.
.
Russ, Yod...nicely put!
Smitty
"I have been part of several discussions recently regarding this question; Is it okay to use foul language, get tattoos, piercings or socially drink (just to name a few) in order to create opportunities to share the gospel?"
I personally think that the question is a bit skewed up-front. Is it "okay"? Who should do anything because it is merely "okay".
It may be God's will - as evidenced by Paul's use of what was, in that day, considered foul/offensive language, and other instances in the old testament - in rare instances, for one to use offensive language to make a point. In Paul's case it was specifically to offend the self-righteous into recognizing/understanding the full extent of the Gospel.
Given that tattoo, as referred to in the Bible, and what we call "tattoos" today are completely different - tattoos in that day were a part of pagan religious rituals... seems to be a personal issue, and I don't know what the big deal is, honestly.
Piercings? What do piercings have to do with anything? Is that actually an issue? I don't know of anyone who does that to "reach out" - people get piercings so they can get a piercing... sorta like coloring their hair or painting their fingernails.
Again, Social drinking as outreach? If I choose to have a drink, it's because I want a drink - alcohol, Biblically, is a blessing from God to be enjoyed, and also, like Sex - also a gift from God - can be dangerous is abused or used improperly.
I guess I would assume that anyone condemning any of the above activities is likely as immature of a believer as anyone who would choose to do the above merely for the save of "evangelizing the lost". All of the above are non-issues, and up to personal conviction.
I say, in order to better share the gospel, we actually ... well... share the Gospel. And, in that context, what will make us better witnesses is NOT following a list of "do" or "don't", but living Christ among the lost - loving the lost with God's love. The rest of the formerly mentioned issues are entirely peripheral, if you ask me.
Good points Shannon.
I have never done anything appearance wise to "reach out" to others.
For me it's more about GOING where others are and BEING human (the same) with the intention of BEING light, hope, and love to others.
When was Paul using offensive language?
I personally think that the question is a bit skewed up-front. Is it "okay"? Who should do anything because it is merely "okay".
It may be God's will - as evidenced by Paul's use of what was, in that day, considered foul/offensive language, and other instances in the old testament - in rare instances, for one to use offensive language to make a point. In Paul's case it was specifically to offend the self-righteous into recognizing/understanding the full extent of the Gospel.
Given that tattoo, as referred to in the Bible, and what we call "tattoos" today are completely different - tattoos in that day were a part of pagan religious rituals... seems to be a personal issue, and I don't know what the big deal is, honestly.
Piercings? What do piercings have to do with anything? Is that actually an issue? I don't know of anyone who does that to "reach out" - people get piercings so they can get a piercing... sorta like coloring their hair or painting their fingernails.
Again, Social drinking as outreach? If I choose to have a drink, it's because I want a drink - alcohol, Biblically, is a blessing from God to be enjoyed, and also, like Sex - also a gift from God - can be dangerous is abused or used improperly.
I guess I would assume that anyone condemning any of the above activities is likely as immature of a believer as anyone who would choose to do the above merely for the save of "evangelizing the lost". All of the above are non-issues, and up to personal conviction.
I say, in order to better share the gospel, we actually ... well... share the Gospel. And, in that context, what will make us better witnesses is NOT following a list of "do" or "don't", but living Christ among the lost - loving the lost with God's love. The rest of the formerly mentioned issues are entirely peripheral, if you ask me.
bingo! We have a winner.
2 thumbs way up, St Lewis!
1 Corinthians 9:19-21 (New International Version)
Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.
Russ... amen, good points...
Travis, in Philippians 3:8 Paul states "For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as RUBBISH, in order that I may gain Christ" - the literal greek word for RUBBISH translates more literally as "Dog S***" - i.e., excrement/manure, etc, and appears to have been considered offensive in non-Biblical texts of Paul's day.
That is simply one example.
Jesus, in Luke 14:35, used pretty offensive language as the term for the pile that unsalty salt wasn't worth being thrown in was a pile of doodie. That's not the mention the many times the ancient equivalent to tampons are brought up in the Scripture in a critique/insult, or in the Old Testament when God jokingly states - in the lingo of the day - that Satan was on the crapper, or when Paul tells people who are encouraging circumcision to go all the way and cut their whole privates off.
The Bible isn't very prim and proper, to be honest - I think it was a book written to offend our sensibilities - to shock us into seeing the truth. That's why it is compared to a double-edged sword - no matter who you are, it will cut you. I can't think of a single time - even during surgery - when getting cut was pleasant, even though I can think of many times when it may be necessary.
REALLY liking this thread!
Shannon....brilliant!
Smitty
Love all of your insight!
I always feel sad for the ultra conservative churches that I know of (many of which my relatives are in) that are judgmental based completely on outward appearance. Sad.
I started to post earlier, but decided against it. A couple of points I'd like to toss into the mix...
Titus: to the pure, all things are pure. Wrestle with that one awhile, eh?
Concerning alcohol, in Deut 14 the Lord instructs Israel to spend their tithe money on wine and strong drink on their journey to present their tithes to Him.
Offensive language, to me, is the message more than the medium. If I tell someone to "go to Hell" is it the fact that I said H, E, double hockey sticks or that I desire the eternal damnation of another person's soul that makes my speech offensive? I vote for B. I recall reading an article somewhere in which the author declared that it was impossible for Bono to be a Christian, since he dropped the f-bomb on live television...right...
As far as appearance goes, it does matter. Here's where I hesitated to comment before, because I really don't want to start a flame war, going through everyone's wardrobe, declaring certain styles godly and others demonic. Every generation judges and scorns the one preceding it and succeeding it. M-m-my g-g-g-generation does/did it, my parents' did, my kids' does/will, and so does yours.
Having said that, I repeat that appearance does matter. I run a business where I don't allow specific things...baggy pants, hats at an angle, ripped clothing. There is no sign telling the employees what to wear and how to wear it. They know what is professional. They know what image it is we're trying to project to the public. Certain styles project rebellion, whether the wearer cares to admit it or not.
Are piercings okay? Why not? A tongue piercing? That sends a message, not one that I care for my daughter to be sending. Yes, appearance matters. Look around at church and notice how much cleavage you see (well...guys, ask your wife). I've seen enough guys, including adults, wearing hats in church. Ungodly? Depends on who you ask. Tacky and uncouth? Yup. Appearance matters.
We all make snap judgments based on appearances. Punkers mock the suits, who mock the skaters, who mock the emos, who mock the punkers, blah, blah, blah. Why is it that so often when the church gets a hankering to push the envelope, it's toward the world?
Let your moderation be known unto all.
Hebrews 10:24, y'all. Provoke each other to love and good works, not for the fun of it.
What if the Sermon on the Mount describes the life the Gospel empowers us to live to the T (t standing for transformation in this case)? That definitely would look different than the world, no? And it goes beyond legalistic rules to Spirit empowered living.
Lets all re-read it this week and come back for discussion.....
OK, let's do it!
I'm in!
Smitty
Matthew 5-7 IS the constitution of the Kingdom!!
I'm going to start a new thread where we can discuss this section by section. I think it's a great idea.
We'll officially start the STUDY Next week on MONDAY morning.
October 12.
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Constitution of The Kingdom Study (Matt. 5-7) - Groups - YouVersion.com: Online Bible