What Is The Presence Of God

[bishop]

So many times we always speak abt the presence of God but the question is. What is the presence of God and how do w connect with it.

[glory]

So many times we always speak abt the presence of God but the question is. What is the presence of God and how do w connect with it.

UGH! I typed this big, long reply and somehow lost it.

We believe God is omnipresent so a more accurate term is the 'manifest presence of God'. Other expressions commonly used include 'the glory', 'the anointing', or simply, the Holy Spirit.

This is an EXTREMELY important topic that is often overlooked. Personally, I'd like to have a big, long conversation with everyone who would like to contribute in fleshing this out.

I feel it, that's how I access it. It's like wind, I don't have to see it to know it's real. I feel the anointing and it's wonderful- other descriptions that I might use that may be lacking, it's 'intoxicating', it is 'to die for'. Generally, I don't see in the spirit. For those who do, that may be another way of accessing this substance we are talking about.

Something that is fascinating is how the anointing may or may not be paired to Christian worship. Woo hoo, now we're really talking! The manifest presence of God should be the focal point of worship, but is it? There is much to be said about the personality of the anointing, it's proclivities, this is something that really needs to be examined. So, anyone want to examine it? Discuss it? This is maybe my favorite topic.

[glory]

Nobody to play with right now, I'll make a soliloquy. I've heard of preachers who wouldn't go out to their audiences because they had to wait upon God, they knew that they alone had nothing to offer. It's a situation that calls for brutal honesty, 'what is our first allegiance?' Generally or always, God will deliver for the people, but our hearts get tested and don't we all hate it when we realize we are bankrupt and ministering in the flesh? We have to nip that in the bud.

We'll do well to have a similar orientation in worship. I remember once, the worship leader Don Potter closed out a set saying simply, 'I don't hear anymore.' So, we stopped.

Sometime, I'd love to hear a worship leader strike just one note or one chord so that everyone can hear it and feel it. If you don't feel it right away, strike another, and just wait on the anointing. The congregants need to learn, we're doing this with and for God, it's OK to search him out. And too, pleasing the assembled audience won't take presidence over pleasing God.

I'll pause, does anyone want to come out and play?

And FTR, I started doing the soundboard at my church since I was last run out of here. I don't have the creds of a singer or musician but I'm trying to give people a reason to listen to what I have to say. So far, 'worshipper' isn't a real position, but I hope audio tech is a little closer. ;-)
'

[glory]

Continuing this dissertation, worship leaders, you don't think it's all about you, do you? How God manifests himself during worship is related to more than the skill, sincerity and cleanness of the worship team. Is there a strong correlation between 'his presence' during rehearsal and your cleanness and right living? Hey, there is nobody else to factor in. In front of an audience, however, there is more to the story.

I'll provide just one example. I was at Morningstar Fellowship back when they were in the warehouse. The place was pretty packed. The worship team launched out. I could feel it, something mighty wonderful was looming, it was right there at hand. But then, I noticed a circle of people hanging out in the back of the room chit chatting. Morningstar was like that, uber casual, and I'm sure the feeling was, 'hey, it's the back of the room, we wouldn't go down to the front of the room and carry on like this.' Wrong answer. I was frantic, I could feel the anointing just waiting to fall, but I could tell the casual attitudes of these people and probably some others "grieved" it. Not wanting to miss what God had for us, I went back to these people and started flapping my fingers like a duck to mock the conversation they were having and the detrimental effect they were having on the entire atmosphere (not just any distraction they provided to those closeby trying to hear the music). Yeah, FYI, I'm banned from a couple churches right now.... Anyway, one of the ushers saw both me and the 'partiers' and chose to stay out of it. Well, I do have my limits, and I see atmospherics destroy worship all the time, so I backed down. Later, when the worship was over, Rick Joyner commented something along the lines, 'wow, that was something, I thought we were going to have something break in any moment.' Well Rick, we were....

So, in addtion to the condition of the worship teams, the audience and the atmospherics have an impact on His manifest presence- the hunger of the congregants, the loudness, the mix, sensitivity to and respect for the Holy Spirit...

The worship teams are always so busy with chord progressions and all the intricacies of actually making the music, I think oftentimes many things are left unattended. Are you the worship leader? How big is your sphere of influence? Does the audio team give the house what you want or is that their turf? Do they jack up the amps so that they personally feel powerful, do they have a label on the main loudness slider that reads "Holy Spirit"? Is their ear for bass atuned by lowriders at stoplights in the hood?

If you are the worship leader of your church, if it's your house, you probably ought to take responsibility for the conduct and culture of the audience and the entire worship atmosphere. I see it all the time, the worship team is wonderful and they're pouring out their hearts and the experience is just so so, because of things left delegated to others.

[Uneeknitter]

I think the answer is different for so many different people. For me, it is a feeling of being overcome by emotion that wells up and makes me feel like bursting. To connect I often will lift my hands in praise. I play the keyboard so sometimes it means just stopping in my play. Other times I know the song well enough I can close my eyes and just play one handed chords while I lift my hands in praise and worship.

Connecting others to that, well that is more difficult. Some people feel awkward around that type of emotional out pouring and I have seen people react differently to it. But my #1 goal in worship is to bring others closer to God. I think this can be accomplished by doing what the spirit leads me to do, even if that does make other uncomfortable. God will touch their heart and knowing he is present gives me confidence in that!

[Sambekzx]

In my personal experience, the times when I felt the "presence of God" the most were when it felt like an invisible substance in the room that felt refreshing like a fresh breeze that filled the space like a thick fog. It felt like something infusing everyone, causing people to suddenly appreciate the loving nearness and the transcendent awesomeness of God at the same time. It's an overwhelming feeling that causes most people to start crying uncontrollably like children. You're thinking, "GOD IS HERE!" and from the innermost parts of your guts you want to worship and love Him with everything you have. Usually, the verbal result of this isn't coherent singing, but cries, shouts, moans, and outbursts of prayer. It's too overwhelming.

I've been to revival meetings where there were individuals having their own encounters, but the ones I remember most and love the most were when there wasn't a single person in the room who wasn't having an encounter. It was instantaneously and simultaneously felt by all. I love those times and yearn for them every time I go to any worship gathering, whether or not I am leading praise.

As for "connecting". It's not so much you connecting with God's presence. Rather, it's Him coming down and STUFFING you with His indescribable "presence"! Just worship wholeheartedly, then He will come and show you His affection from time to time in powerful ways like this.

And one more thing: THE MANIFESTATION OF HIS PRESENCE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE "PRODUCTION VALUE" OF THE MUSIC. Those times I mentioned above came when I led with just an unplugged guitar among a few people or when a leader was leading very simple songs from a keyboard. It's the attitude of the collective heart that God sees and reacts to, not the quality of the music.

[WorshipVanguard]

Great words!!! I'm still learning discernment when it comes to recognizing the presence of God. In the ministry team I'm a part of, we minister to people with some serious needs. Our main focus is to "connect them with the healer." Through our ministry sessions, I've found that God's presence is everywhere, but he does not force is will upon us. Most of the time, he's standing in a corner waiting for an invitation. After all, he's a gentleman and sits at the end of the table until the host comes and brings him to the front. My desire is to invite him into every part of my life, whether mundane or grand. As Sam said, "It's the attitude of the collective heart God sees and reacts to." When the room is full of people who deeply desire God to be the focus of the gathering, he often comes and shows his glory. He's certainly a sight to behold!

[matreames]

In 2nd Chronicles Chapter 5, The Temple of Solomon was being dedicated, and if you read the passage, it is possibly the best instructional for Biblical Worship Leading in the Bible In my opinion. In fact, I teach at worship schools around the world and I always begin with this passage. Because it begins with the congregation coming together and the chapter ends with the presence of God.

I will save the sermonizing for another time but this is what I define the presence of God as.

"Tangible insurgence of God's presence is a moment where you, experience God. This experience causes everything else around you to fade to the point where you stop everything just to encounter and experience God."

How you experience him might be different than other people, but Larry Randolph once explained that very nicely.

"There are hundreds of leaves on a healthy tree, and when the wind blows, each leaf moves and responds differently to the wind. But each is reacting to the same wind according to the way it hits them. The same is true of christians and the Presence of God." - Larry Randolph.

When the presence came down in 2nd Chronicles 5, it appeared as a thick dark cloud, Clouds evoke every sense. You can touch, taste, smell, see, and even hear clouds. When the cloud came down all the ministers stopped because of how thick His Cloud was.

Do I mean we only experience the presence if we have a cloud. No, but the mark of the presence was that when they experienced it, they could not continue with the normal service. They recognized it, and stopped to experience it.

When God's presence comes, it requires that we notice. If he can enter the room and nothing notices, nothing changes, and nothing stops, I wonder if we really experienced His Presence or just a 'High' experience...

[glory]

From previous experience I've found that critical thinking can be interpreted around here as criticism. Referencing the theology message board I sometimes post to, I haven't seem anything around here that could be viewed as anything more than tame compared to those conversations and debates. So, I don't know what the reaction is going to be but it is my inclination to really think and dig and to not be overly concerned that I'm going to hurt someone's feelings. If the reaction is too negative then I'll just have to quit.

"Tangible insurgence of God's presence is a moment where you, experience God. This experience causes everything else around you to fade to the point where you stop everything just to encounter and experience God."

Trimming back unnecessary words, what is the difference between that statement and simply saying "tangible insurgence of God". And, insurgence connotes a rebellion or overthrow, and why this instead of simply saying that God's presence is "manifest"?

How you experience him might be different than other people, but Larry Randolph once explained that very nicely.

"There are hundreds of leaves on a healthy tree, and when the wind blows, each leaf moves and responds differently to the wind. But each is reacting to the same wind according to the way it hits them. The same is true of christians and the Presence of God." - Larry Randolph.

All that sounds good.

When the presence came down in 2nd Chronicles 5, it appeared as a thick dark cloud, Clouds evoke every sense. You can touch, taste, smell, see, and even hear clouds. When the cloud came down all the ministers stopped because of how thick His Cloud was.

His manifest presence as a cloud I get, but I ask, does anyone experience it as "darkness"? If we're all talking about something real and not something that lives only in our imaginations, I think there will be many common traits. I don't experience darkness, it's the opposite, shimmering light (when it's really intense).

Further, clouds don't evoke the five senses. We look up into the sky, how many of us have smelled or tasted the clouds? Stimulus of all the senses can be coupled with seeing a cloud but clouds themselves don't evoke them.

Do I mean we only experience the presence if we have a cloud. No, but the mark of the presence was that when they experienced it, they could not continue with the normal service. They recognized it, and stopped to experience it.

I need to dig these things out of the Word myself but I ask, are we establishing general rules based on a single experience? I say that because the Holy Spirit woos us and the truth is we yield to it in degrees.

When God's presence comes, it requires that we notice. If he can enter the room and nothing notices, nothing changes, and nothing stops, I wonder if we really experienced His Presence or just a 'High' experience...

The manifest presence doesn't require that we notice. Frequently, when it's hovering, many people will be oblivious. People sense it in varying degrees. It's like an opportunity. If we sense it and yield to it, it generally intensifies. If we don't sense it or we ignore it, it will lift.

This statement was made in an earlier post:

And one more thing: THE MANIFESTATION OF HIS PRESENCE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE "PRODUCTION VALUE" OF THE MUSIC. Those times I mentioned above came when I led with just an unplugged guitar among a few people or when a leader was leading very simple songs from a keyboard. It's the attitude of the collective heart that God sees and reacts to, not the quality of the music.

The production value can be related to the attitude of the collective heart. If we don't care enough to do the best we can with the production, that is a heart issue. In practical terms, I see a link all the time.

Alright, I'm not a kumbaya guy where everybody gets a trophy just for participating. I'm interested in truth and I hope we're all mature enough to set our egos aside for that common quest. But, this is a worship community, so, what is acceptable depends on the values of that community. Do we really hash things out here or is this more a place for happy people to say happy things- like Mr. Rogers neighborhood.

I don't read "dark" cloud in 2 Chronicles 5, what say you?

[matreames]

Trimming back unnecessary words, what is the difference between that statement and simply saying "tangible insurgence of God". And, insurgence connotes a rebellion or overthrow, and why this instead of simply saying that God's presence is "manifest"?

Yes, insurgence implies a warfare terminology. Because our Human nature does not focus on God's presence, nor do we choose when it arrives. It comes in and utterly undoes us.

His manifest presence as a cloud I get, but I ask, does anyone experience it as "darkness"? If we're all talking about something real and not something that lives only in our imaginations, I think there will be many common traits. I don't experience darkness, it's the opposite, shimmering light (when it's really intense). I don't read "dark" cloud in 2 Chronicles 5, what say you?

I am sorry, you are right, the word 'dark' doesn't appear in chapter 5, it is found in 6:1 different translations say 'dark' cloud, 'thick' cloud, or 'thick darkness' I forgot to specify that in my original post. As to your point about why darkness, God is light (paraphrased of course) God dwells in inapproachable light. He told moses if you look upon the fullness of my glory, you will surely die. therefore He covers himself in the darkness, or hides us in the cleft of the rock. this is so that the overwhelming weight of His Glory doesn't kill us. Look at the scriptures in Isaiah 6 and Revelation 1, where Isaiah and John saw the Lord in heaven, both times the person literally felt like they would die under the weight of God's Glory.

Further, clouds don't evoke the five senses. We look up into the sky, how many of us have smelled or tasted the clouds? Stimulus of all the senses can be coupled with seeing a cloud but clouds themselves don't evoke them.

I am assuming you live in flat lands then, because if you lived in mountains, your experience would be vastly different. I have walked in clouds. If you go high enough in elevation, you will reach the level where earthen ground is the same height as the cloud line, if you go higher you can look down upon clouds. When you are in the midst of a cloud, your senses will be evoked. But, I cannot properly defend this with a scientific explanation as I am not that smart, I can only speak to my experience.

I need to dig these things out of the Word myself but I ask, are we establishing general rules based on a single experience? I say that because the Holy Spirit woos us and the truth is we yield to it in degrees.

I do not make all my rules on a single experience, but I use the scripture as a tool. This is one of the few records of congregational worship in the house of God, so it is a good starting point when explaining worship in the house of God. As I mentioned at the outset of my original post, I teach schools of worship. Over the course of the classes, we unpack many more, but this is where I have chosen to begin. Since this is an online forum. I have chosen not to continue the whole discourse, but to break down to the piece that is pertinent to the discussion at hand.