Problem with our audio setup

[Michaeldt]

Good day,

I've been lurking around the forums for awhile reading and taking notes, but wanted to throw this out to see what some of you folks think. A little information.

I lead worship for our services, a blend of hymns, modern praise/christian music in our service. I apologize I don't know the name of our sound board, but it's a 32 channel board, pretty professional looking. It was an upgrade from a 16 channel board that had a small problem with it.

Our sound equipment is setup in a balcony at the opposite end of our sanctuary from the stage/musicians/choir/pastor. Our main speakers are suspended from the sanctuary ceiling, about 30-35 ft from the floor. We have had some issues with sound from our two 15" monitors on the stage, and getting vocals mixed well overall.

My question is this: Is it possible that the different levels of the musicians, sound team, speakers is making it difficult to properly get the sound nailed down? I don't know why they mounted the speakers on the ceiling, but I'm considering getting them pulled down from there and put them on stands on either side of the stage at stage level.

I'm also wondering if the mixing board and folks running the sound shouldn't be a little closer to level with the stage area/musicians/choir?

Any thoughts?

[mikeymo1741]

It would be helpful to know what the "issues" with the stage monitors is. In other words, what are you hearing that you don't like?

[Mike on Bass]

Yep. more info would help. However, there are some clues

Our sound equipment is setup in a balcony

By the nature of the beast, this is tough to deal with. For a long time, churches were putting sound booths in an aesthetically pleasing but acoustically devastating location. What you hear in the booth is likely not representing what the people are hearing below.

My question is this: Is it possible that the different levels of the musicians, sound team, speakers is making it difficult to properly get the sound nailed down?

It's very possible. Some people don't understand that it's not going to sound like their Backing Traxx CD/Karaoke machine/ CD player.

Something to keep in mind- people need to learn how to hear themselves in a monitor. What most people don't understand is that they hear their own voice on the back side of their ear drums, and what comes out of the monitor cancels out much of what comes from their own voice. Add that to most volunteer singers think they need to hear themselves head and shoulders above everyone else, this is where volume wars start. They hear everyone else louder than they are, and some of that can't be avoided.

I'm also wondering if the mixing board and folks running the sound shouldn't be a little closer to level with the stage area/musicians/choir?

People are starting to figure that out. The sound crew needs to be down where the people listening to it are at. The last church I was at moved their booth from the balcony to the ground floor- made a big difference. I have been in a couple churches built in the last 10 years or so and their sound booths were on the main floor right in the middle of the sanctuary.

So give us some idea of what you don't like and some other info

We see two monitors- on one channel or two?

How many mixes (aux channels) does your mixing board have?

How many sound techs?

Hopefully we can help you get some answers

[Michaeldt]

Argh, lost an entire post...

So here's the cliff notes version; thanks for your input gents; I'll have to get back to you on the aux channels and one or two channels for the monitors.

Basically our problem from what I'm hearing on the stage, and what a few people I've asked in the congregation, is that the vocals are well below sound-wise from the music.

Mike I understand what you are saying about learning to hear oneself in the monitors. From my history playing in bars and clubs with a small country/rock band in the 90's, I have a half decent ear for what should sound close on the stage.

For example yesterday, we had a trio sing with a CD track, strong voices, but my wife told me they could barely hear their voices over the music. I myself sitting on the stage about 15 feet from a monitor could barely hear the voices as well.

The band I played with in the 90's we had miniscule equipment (8 channel Peavey dinosaur mixing board, three or four 12" monitor wedges, and two 15" main speakers, and we could shake windows at just about every establishment we played at...I honestly think we have the equipment to shake our sanctuary windows (not that I want to) but just not sure we're using the equipment to it's potential.

One other answer; we have two guys who work together on the sound board (techs)...and they do a pretty good work with it...I just think that setup should be doing a lot more than it currently is doing.

[mikeymo1741]

Do you have live amps or drums on stage?

The speakers flown at that height may be causing some issues. Volume levels drop exponentially over distance. A speaker that is 35' off the floor is probably pretty far from the middle of the sanctuary. How far off the stage is the seating? A guy in the first row is automatically 30' from the mains - how far is he from the monitors?

The sound board should be ideally in the center of the room on the main floor, in front of the balcony. Of course, no one is going to do that. Next best choice is probably the front of the balcony in the center.

For example yesterday, we had a trio sing with a CD track, strong voices, but my wife told me they could barely hear their voices over the music. I myself sitting on the stage about 15 feet from a monitor could barely hear the voices as well.

That's definitely a mixing problem. If your sound guy can't hear that, then he's either poorly trained or poorly positioned. Perhaps you can work out some subtle hand signals to let him know he needs to adjust the mix. (For example, if we have singers performing to a track, they will subtly either tap their microphone or point to the floor wedge, and sound knows to bring vocals or music up.)

[travisvwright]

I think it would help to deal with this as two seperate issues front of house (what the congregation hears) is a very distinct thing from monitors. Normally when someone says it's hard to hear voices over the music I would assume they are saying their stage volume is too high. The drums & amps coming off the stage + through the speakers is louder than the singers voice coming off the stage + through the speakers. And the sound men in their posistion are only able to judge the speakers as the stage volume doesn't reach them. So I'd suggest working towards lowering stage volume.

Now for that to apply with singers and a backing track it means that the stage monitors would have to be so loud that the congregation is hearing it even over the mains. Easy to test set that situation back up and mute the mains, then mute the monitors. With the mains muted you are going to hear the monitors but it should be noticably quieter (the mains are closer to the congregation and facing them).

As far as monitor problems I'd recommend getting as many seperate channels to the stage as possible. What my bassist needs to hear is very different from what the backup vocalists need to hear. If you've only got two mixes I'd recommend one for instrument players and one for singers (the WL would be in both). That way you have less competition.

Note none of thsi may apply to your specific situation. I'm generalizing, assuming, and guessing. But it might.

[Michaeldt]

Do you have live amps or drums on stage?

We do have live amps (my acoustic amp is set front of stage and faces towards the back. It's pre-amped into the mixing system. We have another guitar (when he's there) and his amp is mic'ed to run through the system as well. Stage volume is usually quite low, although the piano is definitely the loudest instrument on the stage. Drums are on stage also back corner (I'd rather have them back middle but that's a future project) but so far nothing is mic'ed on the drums.

The speakers flown at that height may be causing some issues. Volume levels drop exponentially over distance. A speaker that is 35' off the floor is probably pretty far from the middle of the sanctuary. How far off the stage is the seating? A guy in the first row is automatically 30' from the mains - how far is he from the monitors?

Our front row pews are approximately 12 feet from the bottom of the stage. The sanctuary was built ascending from the front row to the back..not major probably six feet rise or so to the back of the sanctuary, so I do agree that the speakers are probably too far away from the congregation to start with.

The sound board should be ideally in the center of the room on the main floor, in front of the balcony. Of course, no one is going to do that. Next best choice is probably the front of the balcony in the center.

Agreed, that is something we'll have to discuss with the church staff. I have no idea why they built the sanctuary with the sound booth so far up...guess it was convenient.

That's definitely a mixing problem. If your sound guy can't hear that, then he's either poorly trained or poorly positioned. Perhaps you can work out some subtle hand signals to let him know he needs to adjust the mix. (For example, if we have singers performing to a track, they will subtly either tap their microphone or point to the floor wedge, and sound knows to bring vocals or music up.)

Thanks, reading some of the posts is confirming some of my guesses.

[travisvwright]

Piano? As in large acoustic un-mic'd instrument. Ok it's not the sound man's fault. There's no way from the balcony a sound man can have any guess how to match the sound level of a voice through the system to an acoustic piano for the people on the front row.

This may be heresy in your church, but repalcing a real piano with a keyboard so it can be mixed maybe be the better (easier, cheaper less of a fight etc.) solution than moving the sound booth. It won't be as accurate of a solution but it should go a long way towards getting you there. I know a church in TN that added a keyboard beside the piano so the piano player could do both piano and synth, but naturally just transitioned to only using the synth even with Piano patches.

Again generalizations and assumptions etc. But I hope it helps.

[Cliff]

What they hear in the sound booth way up in the balcony can be totally different then what everyone else hears.
Maybe sit up there sometime and listen then go to the floor.

Or perhaps they like the music loud, and the voices not.