I've always wondered....

[WorshipFocus]

Very True. Can't we all just get along? LOL

"Young whipersnappers comin' in here changing OUR church. Who do they think they are!"

It's funny because I have experienced this at a church before. They want and LOVE a youth department until they hit 19, 20, 21 and start having opinions and begin blooming into young vocal leaders who make themselves heard. They can't (at that point) be talked to like children or made to hush. You can't threaten them with "no youth trip" this summer if you all keep complaining about the cookies. They actually vote at business meetings and serve in some very important positions within different ministries.

Often times its a power struggle. Giving some of it up to people you once taught in Sunday school cant be a good idea can it? LOL.

[louca]

When someone is lost and out in the world, what kind of music do you think they are most familiar with? Anything contemporary and many different styles of music.

While I definitely agree with playing the kind of music they are most familiar with, I do not think that is ALWAYS what they are looking for at church. My brother in law is a good example of someone who came out of a sinful rock-n-roll lifestyle and was looking for an alternative to the life he knew. He was more radical than most as he, to this day, detests any rock music or even music with drums in it (he used to play the drums).

Obviously, my brother in law is atypical. But I think some seekers want to see the church as somewhat bucking the trend of society. I realize that playing music familiar to non-believers can keep from turning them away (at first), and it is a good way to gradually introduce them to Christ. And don't get me wrong, I am ALL FOR THAT.

Folks here have raised great points regarding resistance to going traditional. Whenever this subject comes up, I can't help but wonder how the songs of traditional hymn writers hit the congregations of their day. Were they old and stuffy back then? Or did they sound modern and edgy? I think probably the latter. I know there are probably historians here that know the answer to that. Can you just imagine the day when congregations see Tomlin and Redman songs as stuffy, old fashioned, and "traditional"?

Lou

[tlhartsfield]

Whenever this subject comes up, I can't help but wonder how the songs of traditional hymn writers hit the congregations of their day. Were they old and stuffy back then? Or did they sound modern and edgy? I think probably the latter. I know there are probably historians here that know the answer to that. Can you just imagine the day when congregations see Tomlin and Redman songs as stuffy, old fashioned, and "traditional"?

Very true. It's funny to me to hear people say they kicked it up Old Skool with "Shine, Jesus, Shine."

[TruePraise]

well, if I remember what I have been told....many of our hymns have music that used to be drinking songs, because they were tunes that many people would recognize.

OTOH, you can often change this paragraph around say the same thing of the "contemporary pushers" (for lack of better terminology). People who enjoy and worship with traditional music often feel that they are the ones being pushed and that their generation is being lost because the younger generation wants church the way they want it and think is right

You know, that is very true, but as respectfully as I can, I would ask...who is the future of the church? who is going to be around in the next 20 years to carry on the heritage and gospel and the good works? If we dont reach out to the next generation, if we dont let them experience worship in a way that is meaningful to them, if we dont give them enviroments where they would feel comfortable bringing their unsaved friends, then we will lose a generation to other churches who will.

Trust me, I know what I am talking about. Our church has lost an entire generation because the older and very traditional folks have refused to allow significant change. Our children's department now consist of 2 infants, 1 15 month old, 2 five year olds, 1 six year old, 1 first grader, 1 third grader, and about 4 sporadically visiting children under the age of 10. The infants come with their moms, the 18 month old and 5 year olds come with their grandparents. (we had a thriving children's department of 30 plus children when we started attending, but those kids have grown up and not been "replaced" as families have simply given up on our church making any significant changes)

The Youth group is full of the youngest children (now mostly jr and sr high) of families who have been there for years, the 19 - 50 year age bracket consist of about 5 families, the 50+ bracket consist of the rest of our families (about 30). Because our church refused to change, and reflect the culture around them we lost 17 families (about 2 years ago in a huge mess), almost the entirety of our work force and the ones who would be bringing in their friends and their children's friends.

Older people need to remember what it was like 30 years ago, when they were on the cutting edge and doing what worked to meet their generation for Jesus and bring them into body life! And they need to realize that they are an important part of the church body, but they are not it's future. My own son, 19 has gone to another congregation because we could not offer him what he needed to grow and thrive, and he is not the only one. Our college kids are not coming back and settling here, our church is dieing and our older population does not get it. Their sunday school classes, and their activities go on without a hiccup, while the children and family ministries are almost non resistant. They need to remember that different and uncomfortable does not equal bad and wrong.

I'm, sorry, I don't meant to rant, but I am so tired and weary and frustrated with our current situation....things are improving, but it is so slow and painstaking that our pastors recent warning needs to be listened too. Sigh...if we don't do something, if we don't let the Spirit lead and then have the courage to do what He says, our church will not exist in 20 years, or less.

[russhutto]

I'm not saying that the old "bar song" addage isn't true but....

More than likely it actually has to do with hymn writers using the bar "form" of music. It's an actual form that follows the AAB pattern. It's kind of a carry over from the Medieval Bar form in poetry. Luther used it in his chorales. And many hymn writers would follow suit.

That's NOT to say that you can't take lyrics and put them to popular music. That was also a common practice, but as a Music History and Theory nerd, I just want to point out that a lot of people commonly use the ol' "bar tune" (drinking song) line of thought when it comes to justifying contemporary music, and probably (notice I say probably) that isn't entirely accurate.

Carry on.

[Smitty]

This VERY issue is the biggest stumbling block I encounter as a worship consultant...surprised? Don't be...I wasn't.

If you really want to know which is the better road to take...ask yourself this simple question...or better yet, ask it of all the hard liners you may encounter...

"When you drive, do you drive by looking in the rear view mirror, or by looking IN FRONT OF YOU?"

Smitty

[TruePraise]

Russ, that may be true, and I am certainly no expert, but our pastor used some examples in a sermon series on worship a while back and actually sang one of the bar songs in church to prove his point. I think they really used bar tunes sometimes.

Now, I certainly understand that some folks have a problem with that, and I personally don't like using old "secular" tunes and adding christian meaning, but that is because I grew up listening to secular music and just have a hard time getting the old lyrics out (many that are really icky) and the new lyrics in, however I don't think it is wrong for people to do so and would never tell someone that they could not or that it was somehow evil.

Smitty, I am not surprised, just saddened. And I told my husband, I refuse to be one of those older people sitting on the back row all grumpy and whiny cause the service is not how I like it. If the church is full, and young people are coming and meeting Jesus and growing in Him and bringing others, then unless it goes against scripture, I am not going to be hard to live with!

[tlhartsfield]

30 years ago, my church was singing from a hymnal that had a mere handful of songs written after 1950. It never occurred to me as a teenager then to sing anything else. Nearly a third of the people sitting in the pews were under 25 (probably under 20).

The culture shift that is aging many of our churches is not due to mere music style.

Not all 20-somethings are interested in contemporary music for worship. Some will say that it's mere posing, and lacks authenticity. Yes, we should look forward, but we should have a clear understanding of where we've been. Check out Red Mountain Church (I have no affiliation with them, btw...) to see what else is happening in church music.

[way2tyred]

Smitty, I am not surprised, just saddened. And I told my husband, I refuse to be one of those older people sitting on the back row all grumpy and whiny cause the service is not how I like it. If the church is full, and young people are coming and meeting Jesus and growing in Him and bringing others, then unless it goes against scripture, I am not going to be hard to live with!

I understand what you're saying. But if we were all doing our job harvesting and raising up mature believers (on both sides of the age bracket) this wouldn't be an issue. But then again, (IMO) that goes back to the "food court" mentality.

[TruePraise]

Here is the thing. I know it is not about music style, but that is just the place it shows up the loudest. I get tired of hearing...you can't cause...

Can't do 2 services cause that will split the church and the older people will never see the younger people, and the younger people need the older people and the older people need the younger people...

Can't have coffee and tables in the worship center during the service because that is disrespectful and rude and it not conducive to a worshipful environment...

Can't wear jeans on stage because that is not showing respect for the church and God and the people in the church, did the rules about what you can wear on stage change?.....

Can't have the music loud or sound too much like the world cause we are supposed to be separate from the world you know...

Can't have a casual atmosphere because you can not really be reverent and meet God in that kind of atmosphere....

Can't sit on a stool and preach without a pulpit cause that is not church you know, when is that preacher going to get back behind that pulpit and preach? ....

Can't do something other than prayer meeting on Wednesday night, cause the church needs prayer....

Can't call the worship center the worship center, because it is the Sanctuary you know...

See my point? It is not the music, it is saturated throughout the attitudes of country club Christians who want everyone to come in and do church their way, cause it is the way, and if you are going to do church you better do it this way.....Oh, those people at X church can do what they want, What, they are growing? Oh, they do <fill in the blank>, That is great, but not in my church".....

Sigh...I'm sorry, I don't mean to go on and on...but this stuff just makes me tired.....Thankfully we have a wise pastor who is a man of prayer and only moves when he believes God is leading him.....and is willing to do what He says, regardless of the fallout, with grace and humility and love....We could all take a lesson.