How to help a "Christian Universalist?"

[Viclyn]

So, I'm in a new church and praying to see how God can use me. My prayer is that I want to minister to people and I want God to show me where He wants me to do this.

I wasn't singing this week, so I sat down and introduced myself to two women sitting on either side of me.

One began to cry during the worship and I made a point to try to talk to her after--not a divine appointment however, and she walked out after the service before I could strike up a conversation.

The woman sitting on the other side was much more open and God had set this appointment. In a very short amount of time I found out that she is a universalist and has been church shopping (interesting) but doesn't like how the different churches literally interpret the Bible. She decided to come to this particular church because her son likes the youth group and because she likes the music. She has read a book called "Inclusive Christianity" and said she really liked it.

I was wondering if anyone knows of other books that might counter such universalists arguments that I can recommend.

I offered to go to lunch with her next week if she wanted. I come from a background where I once searched out the question "are there many paths to God," so I know what my experience led me to believe and can use that experience, but I thought, since she is seeking info through books, that it might be helpful to have a good reading list. I know of the McDowell books and the Lee Strobel books as well. Are there any books any of you encountered that were compassionate to the soft hearts of those who want to believe that people aren't going to hell, but yet lays out the supremacy of Christ?

Thanks for the help!

[Don_Z]

Originally Posted by Viclyn

So, I'm in a new church and praying to see how God can use me. My prayer is that I want to minister to people and I want God to show me where He wants me to do this.

I wasn't singing this week, so I sat down and introduced myself to two women sitting on either side of me.

One began to cry during the worship and I made a point to try to talk to her after--not a divine appointment however, and she walked out after the service before I could strike up a conversation.

The woman sitting on the other side was much more open and God had set this appointment. In a very short amount of time I found out that she is a universalist and has been church shopping (interesting) but doesn't like how the different churches literally interpret the Bible. She decided to come to this particular church because her son likes the youth group and because she likes the music. She has read a book called "Inclusive Christianity" and said she really liked it.

I was wondering if anyone knows of other books that might counter such universalists arguments that I can recommend.

I offered to go to lunch with her next week if she wanted. I come from a background where I once searched out the question "are there many paths to God," so I know what my experience led me to believe and can use that experience, but I thought, since she is seeking info through books, that it might be helpful to have a good reading list. I know of the McDowell books and the Lee Strobel books as well. Are there any books any of you encountered that were compassionate to the soft hearts of those who want to believe that people aren't going to hell, but yet lays out the supremacy of Christ?

Thanks for the help!

The book of John.

It is a straight, no nonsense accounting of God's plan. The road that Christians travel is narrow and some people simply cannot bear to hear the truth. Like some of Christ's disciples, they cannot handle the truth that is presented to them in the Word. In John 6:60-68, Jesus just finishes up telling the Pharisees and his disciples that He is the Bread of Life and that all the eat of His flesh and drink of His blood will have eternal life. Many of His disciples found His words too difficult to hear and abandoned His teachings. Only the twelve that would later become His Apostles remained. The path to salvation is not one that we can simply make up things to make it all soft and cuddly.

Jesus has clearly stated that no one can get to the Father but through Him. We know that Christ died for our sins and that all we have to do to receive that gift is to believe in Him.

The universalist believes that this step is unnecessary. Every one is 'of God' so we will all meet up again in heaven and God will sort us out. If this is the case then Christ's sacrifice is also not needed and God would need another criteria to base our salvation on. What would that be? They claim to be Christian, but they cannot be because they clearly do not believe the Word of God.

I would study the book of John a chapter at a time. There is a lot of stuff in there that is awesome to take in. It is my favorite book. Please feel free to IM or post any questions you may have. I am open to an on-line Bible study )

Blessing,

Don

[simon]

There is a (reasonably) well known story that goes something along the lines of:

After a horrific accident a man opened his eyes to find himself in the most beautiful place. "Where am I?" he gasped, "heaven", came the reply of an angel, "let me show you around".

The man was amazed to find smiling faces of all different colours, backgrounds and religions. They walked past a smiling Buddhist monk, he saw a Shi-ite holy man laughing and talking with a Hassidic Rabbi, and over in the trees he saw a Wiccan and a Navajo Medicine man.

As they were going along they came to a large wall behind which there were sounds of singing. "What's this, and why is there a wall?" the man asked. "Shh", said the angel, "it's the Christians, and they think they are the only ones here!"

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Now I am not a universalist myself, however after reading Don's post above thought I should provide a bit of balance - check out the wikipedia article on atonement and especially the "moral influence theory". Not all Christians (even evangelicals like myself) believe in hell and damnation for all those who are not confessing Christians. I think we will be surprised who we find in heaven.

[phil77]

In regard to Simon's post, I do not believe we will be surprised at all who is in Heaven, it will be those who profess Christ and have a personal relationship with Him; no one else. Not those who do good deeds, who give to others, who do not commit crimes, who are generally "good people", even those who practice other religions, all without Christ. They will be cast aside; not my words, but God's; Don referenced the scripture in his post. I know plenty of "good people", but they are not followers of Christ, therefore they will not have a place at His table. It's unfortunate, but it's true, God's Word says so.

I know, I know, there are those that would say that we don't know that for sure, and we can't assume that "Christians" are the only one's who God will allow, and that if we believe that we are trying to limit what God can do as if we completely understand Him. If that were the case, the ultimate sacrifice that He made would have been in vain, not just in vain, but completely unnecessary. The Bible spells it out plainly, we either accept it or deny it.

[Don_Z]

Matthew 25

The Sheep and the Goats

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

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Ezekiel 34

17 " 'As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats.

18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?

20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep.

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I put these two sets of scriptures here because I believe they may provide you with another way to open a door with your friend. We are all familiar with the Matthew 25 scriptures. Jesus is telling us about how He will sit in judgment of all nations and will separate the sheep and the goats. The goats are those that will have turned their backs on man. They broke the commandment of "Love your neighbor as you would yourself." Because of this major failure to man and thus to God's commandment, they are sent to their eternal punishment.

The sheep are those that fulfilled God's commandments that Christ described that concerned man.

In Ezekiel, we see that their are two types of sheep. It could be possible that those of us that have committed our lives to Christ, thus obeying God's first commandment of loving Him with all our heart, minds and soul would be taken like the lean sheep to our reward in the Kingdom. The 'fat' sheep are those that have not yet accepted the gift that God has given them, maybe they get a fina opportunity to hear the truth from Truth itself.

The reason I am arguing this is because Christ has seen in their hearts and sees that they are basically good people what they need to decide for themselves is whether they can be faithful people. Those that turn toward God go to heaven.

Perhaps those that understand the 2nd commandment are only resistant to loving God because they have not been told the Truth in a way that they can understand. There are many false trials that have launched people away from God. Many of us have to work extra hard to undo the damage that others before us have done. Sometimes the damage done is greater than what we can undo.

This is of course only my opinion, but it would be a nice middle ground to start a friendly conversation with your new friend. It gives you an island to step on and her a life raft to cling to.

I will pray for your success. I know that you will do a great job because you have placed her well being and growth first.

Don

[louca]

Springboarding off what some others have said, and not to give a lofty, pat answer, maybe what she needs is YOU. I know, she needs Christ in her life, but maybe the vehicle to guide her at this point is you. Maybe if you don't know a lot about being a Universalist, get a book on the cults and see exactly what they do believe. Meet her where she is, with what she knows and believes and slowly guide her.

I know your post was asking for a good book. But as good as a great book can be, it is nothing like a loving friend. In a lot of the successful cults, there is one common ground: they all have a welcoming, loving community. I am not saying your church does not have that, but am saying that kind of love can mean more to her than a great book, especially at this point in her journey.

Lou

[simon]

I entirely back up what louca says about getting to know her. A good relationship with someone is far more important than trying to "put them straight", preach to them or condemn them with scripture. Only when we have walked with someone do we gain the right to speak into their lives. Too often a Christian's first response is to try and "put someone right" rather than get to know them.

Now, regarding the theological aspects raised by Don and Phil, I think you guys are putting the cart before the horse. I fully agree that we only come to the father through the son (John 14:6), however whether someone needs to actually know this is another matter. Many millions of people have been born in places that haven't heard the good news or have had the good news warped in such a way that they do not believe it because it is no longer good news. To say that only people who have heard and understood the gospel in one specific way will get to heaven demonstrates cultural imperialism of the worst kind. The creator God is a lot bigger than our understanding of him. It is up to him to judge each one of us for the lives we have lived, not the culture we happened to be born into.

[Sambekzx]

Simon, I'm trying to understand what you mean by "culture." The Gospel transcends culture. Could you explain?

[Viclyn]

This is kind of heading in a different direction than I had anticipated. That is OK but I'm afraid is not all that helpful at this point and time.

I know that The Word never goes out void, but one of her comments is that people have used the Bible to defend Christ as the one and only way to God, and she says she knows it does, but she isn't sure about the validity of "The Bible" that we have. So, JUST pointing to scriptures may not be, at least in the immediate future, going to be effective.

Yes, relationship is important and of course my first objective is to be her friend and to love her where she is at. I was asking about books because that seems to be where she is willing to get some of her information. So, I was trying to approach it from what she chose to reveal to me.

I don't really need arguments because, as I said, I have taken this journey myself and know what the scriptures say and where I can go to get more. That's not really what I'm asking. I appreciate your input but I would really like to know what anyone knows about book resources that I may point her to.

Thanks

[phil77]

Simon said "It is up to him to judge each one of us for the lives we have lived, not the culture we happened to be born into."

Again, if we are to be judged on the lives we lead, the crucifixion and resurrection would have served no purpose, and a true relationship with God would not be necessary. Not assuming that you personally believe this, but if all that is needed to enter Heaven is to have lived a good life, that would mean that the Bible contradicts itself.

Sorry, wrong.

The fact that a person has not heard the gospel in a conventional manner does not mean that they have not been presented it in some way or another.