YHWH songs

[yod1948]

Originally Posted by travisvwright

This is the second time in my life I've heard this refered to as the 2nd commandment. Yod what are your ten? BTW I'm fascinated. If that is 2 I can't get to ten.

From the top of my head so not word for word.
1. No other gods before Me.
2. Make no craven images.
3. Do not use the name of the Lord in vain.
4. Honor the Sabath
5. Honor your father and Mother
6. Do not kill.
7. Do not commit adultery
8. Do not steal
9. Do not lie
10. Do not covet.

Anyway if you hvae my three at 2 then you have another commandment that I don't have unless you only get up to nine??? Please set me straight.

I'm not sure what I was thinking but I count them the way you just did. The Catholic way of counting has it as the 2nd Commandment though.

[mikeymo1741]

Growing up Catholic we had separate commandments for coveting your neighbors's wife and coveting your neighbor's goods. ( 9+10) Maybe Nick can comment on if that's still the current teaching.

[NickAlexander]

Originally Posted by mikeymo1741

Growing up Catholic we had separate commandments for coveting your neighbors's wife and coveting your neighbor's goods. ( 9+10) Maybe Nick can comment on if that's still the current teaching.

Now that I have a catechism before me (which has devoted an entire section on the Ten Commandments, pp496-611).

It appears they take the two instances of the Ten Commandments being recited (Exodus 20:2-17 and Deut 5:6-21), and combine them so as to form ten distinct commands.

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me. (this incorporates "graven imagery" into the commandment).

2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

3. Remember to keep holy the LORD's Day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

So my earlier post today was incorrect.

Peace!
Nick

[travisvwright]

Ok seems between us we've kind of come up with 11, then either combine 1 and 2 Have no other gods, Make no other gods. Or 9 and 10 covet neighbors wife and covet nieghbors possesions.

Apologies for the thread hijack.

[russhutto]

For the sake of discussion, could yod or Nick, give some specific examples of using the Lord's name in vain? And/or how does actually saying The Name (in a worshipful and reverent manner cross the line into vain usage)?

I'm not trying to argue a point here, I'm just curious what the perspective is.

[NickAlexander]

This is a very big issue, and in preparation for your answer, I googled online for what the Catholic Catechism had to say about this issue. (CCC 2142-2167).

They referred to a number of instances where God's name could be revered, and other instances where God's name had been abused.

One issue where it is revered is in the act of baptism, where one is baptised "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", as dictated in Matt 28. When one commits their life to Jesus, and is baptised by use of God's holy Name, you are officially linking your commitment to Christ with His holy Name. And if one chooses later in life to forgo their decision, they are dragging God's name thru the mud.

Another issue is that of swearing of oaths. In short, if I lie to you, I commit a sin. But if I go to a court of law, and put my hand on the Bible, and swear to tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth... and then lie, I commit a crime. The crimes' rootedness is on dragging God's holy name thru the muck.

A couple of days ago my Bible study group came across a discovery--there were two instances where Abram/Abraham tried to pass off Sarai/Sarah as his sister, to a visitor in their home. The second instance the visitor was given a much sterner rebuke from God, and the reason for the much sterner rebuke? God had, inbetween both of these instances, had sworn a covenant to Abram (thus, Abraham). Thus, when Abraham lied, he was dragging God's name through his lie.

Related to these offenses is the act of, of course, misusing God's name, most likely as a cuss word. This is, unfortunately, common in our society, and I believe it is one which we are all in agreement.

Lastly, the issue about "YHWH" words are not mentioned in this text. I think the pope's admonition to refrain from the term came about through conversations with our Jewish copatriots, who take it to mean to not recite this name aloud. (The term itself means "I Am", and it gives a wonderful new context as to why the Jewish authorities were offended when Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I Am.").

Yesterday, I was enjoying a new song (which I will leave nameless), up until the final minute, where, out of the blue, the lead singer started screaming "YAHWEH! YAHWEH! YAHWEH! YAHWEH!" And to my ears, it was an affront. I know he didn't intend for it to be offensive, as repetition connotes intimacy and reverence. But in this case, I thought he was betraying intimacy for theatrics, reaching for a reverence that simply wasn't there. And it broke my heart. If I choose to keep it, I will probably snip that last part out.

Thank you for the opportunity to write about this. I don't expect believers of different denominations to come to these same conclusions, but I always find there to be a great way to worship God by understanding how those of different denominations come to love and respect God. He is bigger than all of us. I just hope I did this answer justice, in a way that lifts Him up, and does not denigrate those who hold differing perspectives.

Nick
http://www.nickalexander.com/home

[mikeymo1741]

I had also read that this was (in part) a response to some Jewish leaders making this request of the Vatican.



I also find it a bit ironic that this week's Free Song from Integrity is "Yahweh" by Hillsong. Hmmm....


Also, the Vatican's policy seems contrary to Catechism 2143: He will not introduce it into his own speech except to bless, praise, and glorify it

[NickAlexander]

Originally Posted by mikeymo1741

Also, the Vatican's policy seems contrary to Catechism 2143: He will not introduce it into his own speech except to bless, praise, and glorify it

Dude, I would appreciate it that if you were to quote the Catechism, to do so in its entirity.

Here's 2143:
Among all the words of Revelation, there is one which is unique: the revealed name of God. God confides his name to those who believe in him; he reveals himself to them in his personal mystery. The gift of a name belongs to the order of trust and intimacy. "The Lord's name is holy." For this reason man must not abuse it. He must keep it in mind in silent, loving adoration. He will not introduce it into his own speech except to bless, praise, and glorify it.[*74]

[*74]: Cf. Zech 2:13; Ps 29:2; 96:2; 113:1-2.

"Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling.”" (Zech 2:13)

"Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name;
worship the LORD in the splendor of his holiness." (Psalm 29:2)

"Sing to the LORD, praise his name;
proclaim his salvation day after day." (Psalm 96:2)

"Praise the LORD.
Praise, O servants of the LORD,
praise the name of the LORD.
Let the name of the LORD be praised,
both now and forevermore." (Psalm 113:1-2)

I don't know if the text here is "YHWH"--does someone have a Jerusalem Bible on hand?

Also, I think a quality question here is, can the term be abused, even in a worship setting? Would you not think that my example just before, would qualify? Or that if people turn their brains off while singing such songs, losing the reverence for this name, would this not qualify as well?

Nick
http://www.nickalexander.com/home

[mikeymo1741]

I had, of course, read the whole thing, not including it in the quote for brevity. The inclusion of the whole thing does not change the fact that it and the updated policy seem to be contradictory. It's as if Rome is saying "you can and should use the Name to bless, praise and glorify God, but we'll decide when that happens."

Obviously, your example is likely an abuse; some "vain repetitions" that we are warned against in scripture. Still, it seems a "better safe than sorry" approach. Again, this is really not a criticism, it just seems overly heavy-handed for my taste, and that is one of the reasons I left the Church.


The Jerusalem Bible uses the name Yahweh liberally in Psalm 29.

[NickAlexander]

Originally Posted by mikeymo1741

I had, of course, read the whole thing, not including it in the quote for brevity. The inclusion of the whole thing does not change the fact that it and the updated policy seem to be contradictory. It's as if Rome is saying "you can and should use the Name to bless, praise and glorify God, but we'll decide when that happens."

I didn't get that from the reading of that section. I got that here's a name that's so holy, that rather than risking inadvertant abuses of this name, better to issue a stern warning against its usage... and if one were to use it at all, it must solely be in the service of blessing and worshipping.

Which takes into account that just because one sings praise to God, that doesn't mean the person is actually worshipping God. They can just be a singer whose heart is far away.

That's why there is no contradiction. As for "heavy-handed", well, I find it light as a feather.

The Jerusalem Bible uses the name Yahweh liberally in Psalm 29.

tJB is good in distinguishing the differences between YHWH terms and Adonai, Elohim, etc (whereas in most other translations they're all "Lord."). That's why I asked. Of course, Hebraic readers would verbally substitute "Adonai" upon encountering YHWH, in keeping with the name's reverence.

Catholic or not, I hope this conversation can shine a unique perspective as to the potential controversies about the using of this very special Name in song. It just goes to show that even when a songwriter strives for reaching across all denominations, how they can sometimes still slip up.

Nick
http://www.nickalexander.com/home