The purpose of musical worship: Is it solely for God, or partly for us, too?

[AD(J)]

Hey all, it's been a while, but I'm glad to be back around.

I'd like to get your opinions on corporate musical worship (as opposed to a living a life of worship, which I will try to define below) and its intent; Is it purely for God or do we get something out of it as well?

The framework I am interested in is that of comparison to other religions, and the reason I ask is that I recently heard a sermon concerning music that troubled me.

The only other thing you need to know (if you don't already) is that I am the 'music guy' at my church. This has a great deal of bearing on my views, their relation to my pastors views, not to mention the people who I am charged with leading in weekly worship.



The framework: I see most world religions as having a characteristic 'way to live,' dating as far back as the 700's BC with Lao Tzu and The Tao (literally, 'the way') and on up through the ages, including Christianity.

For Christians, we see this way summed up when Jesus was asked to define the most important commandment. He replied, "Love the Lord your God with [everything] and love your neighbor as yourself." To me, this the scriptural definition in the simplest terms of being a living sacrifice, a life as an act of worship to God. There are other scriptures that speak of a being a living sacrifice, but I think this verse sums up the nuances of all the others very succinctly. To be a living sacrifice, to live a life of worship is to put God first and to love others (which is unnatural) as you love yourself (which is natural). It's the fact that this is so simple and yet so difficult that it is characterized as being a sacrifice. It's hard to do.

Furthermore, I see this paralleled in many other world religions, some phrase it differently, others would define it's purpose differently, but there is a common theme of love for God or The Way, and love for your fellow man, social justice, doing the right thing, etc.

No worries up to this point.... Okay.




Now to get more narrow in scope; Where does musical worship fit into this picture?

In other religions, I see the use of music or even mantra/chant elements as performing a sort of centering function, the method in which people connect to God. Even in early Christian tradition we see Gregorian Chant and other monophonic traditions that closely resemble this idea of reciting spiritual truths and thus worshiping God, but the difference (as it has been articulated to me, at least) between Christianity and other world religions is that musical worship is solely for God and we, as worshipers, should have no agenda or expectations.

For most other world religions, adherents have spiritual experiences during musical worship/meditation/chant/etc... This is often how people commune with God, by closing themselves off from the outside world through a repeated mantra, phrase, melody, or even in reverent silence. The musical or repeated elements of this worship experience seem to have a mildly manipulative quality, serving to shut down the critical mind and allow the worshiper to be enveloped in the experience. People whom I have spoken with from other religious traditions would not disagree that there is an almost hypnotic effect to musical worship or the use of mantra; they would say it is a means to connection with God, a connection that necessitates such measures on the part of the individual.



The similarity I see is that with Christian worship music, though it has been influenced by western music structure, ie, verse, chorus, verse, bridge; we still have repeated spiritual truths and attributes of God, much like these ancient traditions. We just put a more modern spin on it with the musical styling, but it all grows out of the old school Gregorian Chant and we can trace it's history without missing a beat (no pun intended) right up to these modern guys like M W Smith and Chris Tomlin.




Now I've been told that when we 'enter into worship' it is solely for God and we should not go into the experience selfishly, looking for anything of our own to take away from it. Most other religious traditions will admit that the use of repeated phrases and melodies is a somewhat manipulative device that allows a worshiper to turn off their critical mind, the mind that would inherently doubt the intangible realm of God, in order to draw close to him and experience his reality.

But the moment I brought up this parallel with a collection of people at my church, the opinions of whom I have come to value, I got a resounding response to the negative. They wholeheartedly rejected the idea that music is a 'hypnotic device' in any way, and maintained that Christian worship is solely for God and God alone.



The sermon: This leads me to a recent sermon (which I have to believe was somewhat prompted by my apparently scandalously open minded view of musical worship) that served to establish that Christian worship is solely for God, and while we may experience a closeness to God during that time, it is only by His choosing to reveal himself to us and is not something we should ever seek, because to do so is a confusion of what worship is intended to be.

Now I feel suddenly on the outs with some of my close friends, and also with my pastor. It's like no one in this church has ever been confronted with the idea that music can and often is mentally stimulating in these sorts of ways. Beyond that, it seems like the consensus is that for me to go into worship expecting to connect with God is selfish.

Can't I just be admitting what should be happening if my worship is pleasing to God by expecting to connect with and experience him?



I'm not sure exactly what direction this should go, I know this could be a big topic, but I'm interested in some other view points.

Thanks so much!!
Tony

[coleslaw09]

I can honestly say I've never thought about it in that way before. All I know is that in my experience, a part of worship, a very big part, is all about seeking God. If we (being our worship team here at church)ourselves aren't fully expecting an encounter with God ourselves how could we lead others to him.

But I guess all of that is based on meeting with God and "encountering" (for lack of a better word) Him being a important part of a corporate worship service. But as far as it being selfish, I don't think it is at all. I think God wants us to seek him.

Deuteronomy 4:29-31 NKJV) "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

2 Chronicles 7:14-15 NKJV) "if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land

And that may be using those out of context, but I'm 16 and I'm not even going to pretend like i really know what im talking about.


But like I said before, I've never really thought about whether or not that should be a part of corporate worship, you bring up in interesting topic.


Also, I may have badly misinterpreted what you typed and if so just forget about all that..

[alhilgendorf]

After reading your post I had to pull out my copy of Jack Hayford's classic "Worship His Majesty". You really should read this book in order to fully answer your question, but let me quote a little:

"Again, I believe that worship is for people, not the other way around. God does not first receive worship; He first gives it. Just as the Sabbath was given to allow recreative reprieve for His most noble creation, God has given worship as a means for man's recovery, restoration, reviving, redemption and refreshing. ... In saying worship is FOR man, I have not said that worship is TO man. And in saying that worship is a gift to man, I didn't say it isn't to be expressed UNTO God. He - the Transcendant and Eternal One - is still the object of our worship and adoration. But in approaching the task of leading worship as I have declared it here, each time I step before my flock, I sense God's pleasure. I am leading them to Him, but I am doing it by means of a GIFT He has given for their blessing. Worship is for THEM, and I learned that they experience growth in every way as they receive this gift of worship as something that is THEIRS."

Also, as a side note, we must remember that every other religion has a moral code in order to ATTAIN salvation. As Christians, we have been given salvation as a FREE gift, so our good works (AND our worship) is a reflection of Christ in us!

Please read Pastor Jack's book.

[twc_admin]

Tony,

From what I can read, the basic premise of your post and issue is based on this summary:

Now I've been told that when we 'enter into worship' it is solely for God and we should not go into the experience selfishly, looking for anything of our own to take away from it.

First thought is that we must be careful not to use the words "music" and "worship" interchangeably, as if they are necessarily the same thing.

Ultimately, I think "music" can definitely be entertaining.

Now, I've not read Hayford's book, and he's a voice that I deeply respect. But my first impression is that "worship" is meant for God. Ultimately, the purpose of "worship" is to glorify God, to make Him known, to exalt and magnify (draw attention to) God Himself. HOWEVER, if we, the worshiper, get a benefit from that - (and I would say we DEFINITELY DO), my response would be "so what!?" ....

Ultimately, it's the very nature of God to bless us. I can't think of ANYTHING that we can do for God that doesn't come back and bless us. It's that reciprocal nature of God.

However, Tony - I think this is the bigger issue is the fact that we shouldn't let this be a "big issue". Honestly, I mean - some think that we shouldn't get ANYTHING out of worship. (I doubt that's REALLY what they mean, they are likely referring to our MOTIVES behind worship). Others think that we DO get benefits from worship. What is the "main thing"? WORSHIP.

I mean, in church-dom ... we are always going to disagree about some various philosophy and even some points of doctrine. What's important is that we come together and keep the "Main Thing" the "main thing".

I could see Satan using this disagreement in philosophy to sow seeds of discord and division into the church, and even in your own heart. First, it's just a curious question as to "which thought process is correct". Then, it's a more serious question as to 'why do they think that way". Next, it's a lie that somehow "you're on the outside" and "you don't fit in anymore". The relationship gets strained, and you and they start feeling suspicious and "weird" around each other. Before you know it, you don't think you can submit to that leadership anymore.

Don't get me wrong, Tony - I think it's great to have questions, disagreements, differing thoughts, etc. That's the BEAUTY of TWC forum, too - you can vent those out. But when it's all said and done, we just have to work to keep unity at work.

For what it's worth - music IS stimulating. Music is therapy (there are professions called "Music Therapy"). Music can manipulate, stir, calm, excite ... and so, since "music" is often a part of "worship", it only makes sense that these same thing can happen in worship.

Honestly, though - even in reading your synopsis of "The Sermon", I seem to read-between-the-lines a bit differently - that your leadership would be teaching that worship is for God, and that although we may experience some blessing or benefit in the midst of it, the ultimate PURPOSE, MOTIVE, and REASON that we worship should NOT be for our personal edification; rather, for the glory of God.

So, my response is waaaayyy too long already ... so let me just conclude by saying and encouraging you to NOT let this get to you ... don't let it stir around in your mind too much. This hill, IMHO, isn't worthy dying on. I'm not saying you are doing that, except for the line where you said "Now I feel suddenly on the outs with some of my close friends, and also with my pastor" ... and that greatly concerns me. It's not worth that ... just agree to disagree, or just don't even feel like it has to stay in a state of debate.

At our church, we have so many angles and views on various elements of the Gospel, though we all wholeheartedly agree with the core elements of the Gospel and Bible. But on issues such as charismatic gifts, expressions of worship, healing and miracles, suffering and sovereignty, "baptism of the Holy Spirit", etc ... we have MANY different viewpoints ... yet, we focus on what we AGREE on, and as a result, have a powerful team.

Hope this helps, man!
For the Kingdom,
Fred

[Edward]

So, Fred, what you are saying is both persons are right? RIGHT!

I too, after performing in 8 different CCPW bands hear the same comments about my gifts that God gave me. YES, I too have openly asked the same question. The hurt that I sense in this brothers post seems to have turned inward, somewhat, and yes Satan will use it against the Church corporate body. BUT, has anybody really answered his question? I know I can't!

He posted for our opinions, so here goes my two cents worth

I believe Fred is correct about keeping the peace in your church body.....I also believe others will try and restrict the freedom we might have in music based on their own personal opinion. Bottomline: Does it take you or the congregation closer to God or farther away from Him? If you find yourself growing cold and bitter, then something is out of place and I would advise a rest break with plenty of prayer (remember King David and his hiding places).
Also, speak privately with your pastor and friends, since I myself am guilty of trying to talk out issues with others. Usually, in my experience, yours or my perception of what is thought, is not what was really being thought at the time or conveyed. I also have sat in many services and had Satan whisper lies in my ear....Did the Pastor mean that about me? Why did he say that!

I'm a bit long winded so I will tell you what happened to me today and hope you will smile for awhile.

Today during sound check I bent over to turn on the effects pedal and ripped a rather large tear in the rear of my pants. Now I had two choices! Go home for another or put on a choir robe and hope for the best. I decided to go home. WELL, during the introductions the sound system went on the fritz and during my two worship songs the congregation gave me the "plastic" stare AND while I was singing " Jesus send the rain" by the PCD group. BOY did it rain!!!

I have never been so discouraged... SO keep your chin up and keep singing for the Lord whether others listen or not.

Oh and for the WorshipCommunity group....I joined because Fred responded to me about worship leader questions. Let me first say that I aspire to that position per a vision from God in 2000, but, do not hold a paid position currently. I volunteer.
Please do not hold it against me.

LOve,
Ed

[alhilgendorf]

There are some good thoughts here - there's wisdom in the counsel of many advisors (or something like that). I agree with Fred that we don't want to make this bigger than it really may be. And we don't want to fall into any sense of false paranoia. The enemy is always looking for a way to disrupt unity. But I think it's important to clarify our own philosophy.

The way we minister is a direct result of our philosophy of ministry.

For instance, if you think that emotion has no place in the church (an extreme example, I'm sure), then what kind of songs will you select? What instruments will you use? How will you lead? What results would you desire and how would you measure them?

If we believe our relationship to God through worship is one sided then what do we do? Do we not sing "I'm Trading My Sorrows" anymore? Do we get peeved every time someone says "Nice worship today!"? Do we feel guilty when we start thinking about something other than God during a song? Maybe I'm getting a little crazy here but I think it's important to understand why we believe what we believe, not for ammunition against those who think differently, but for the sake of our own ministry.

Wow, did I get off track here?

[twc_admin]

Al,
I'd say you are right ON track, and generate more interesting questions!

[AD(J)]

Good thoughts all around. And I will add that book to my short list of things to read. (My long list is one of those things that I will probably not even get to until retirement.... heh).

Anyway, I tend to agree with the overall response here; that this is a mole hill and not, in fact, a mountain.

I also feel most of the people in my sphere of influence would agree, most of those present don't seem bothered at all by this differing of opinion, and half of it may have been a semantics argument for them anyway.

Similarly, I meet with about 8 or 10 guys (and the occasional gal or two) once a week to discuss religion, philosophy, writing, etc... I brought this up and got a similar response, that there is a dualistic nature to worship in one sense, but that it is also to God even if we benefit. They even went so far as to relate other forms of worship to this concept; feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and all such acts of social justice.

Thinking about it this way, I would actually say that since I know of people who don't 'get into' musical, corporate worship as much as they do in other forms, acts of service or charity, that it is right for them to express their worship to God in those ways in order to seek connection to him.

But maybe I'm confusing things again.



BTW, any of you from the twin cities area? I'd love to invite you to our little troupe of thinkers sometime. Right now we meet on St Anthony & Main in Minneapolis, a place called Pracna.

Okay, that's all for now.

Tony

[worshiptrench]

Two heavyweight mentors of mine disagree...

John Piper says worship is for us for the best we bring God is slop (even on best day righteousness is as filthy rag) so it has to be about the Glorified God giving something back to us ...

Dr. Leafblad said at the same event that he doesn't have as much problem with the giving to God something of worth language.

I think it is a bit of both.

[travisham]

Here's a link to some of Piper's thoughts on the inner essence of what worship is: http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL...ce_of_Worship/

Great stuff.