The purpose of musical worship: Is it solely for God, or partly for us, too?

[Sacredise]

This is a great thread - and I'm sorry to be coming into it late. There is so much I'd love to pick up on, but for now let me just touch on one thought that keeps cropping up.

I have heard it said over and over in this thread, and lots of other places, that God does not need us. I understand why we say this and to some extent I agree, but let's stop and think about it (theologically) a little more.

As Christians, we affirm that God is Trinity - Three-in-One. What theologians have acknowledged through the centuries is that this means that the essence of God, the heart of God is community, relationship. God is always and eternally in relationship and seeking relationship, giving and receiving love.

What does this mean for us? Well, God created because in a sense, God had to create. God's nature required that the love relationships within the Trinity be expanded to include others, that the gifts and blessings of love not be withheld or hoarded within God, but be shared. So God created in order to lavish love on creation. With me so far?

So, in order for God's nature as love to be fulfilled, God needs to call us into relationship, God needs to pour love on us, and God longs for us to return that love in worship. When we worship, God's loved is 'fulfilled', and God's purpose in creating is fulfilled, and God's nature is expressed more 'fully'. So, in this sense, God does need us, and God does need our worship.

I could go on to say lots about how and why worship is for us, but for now let me just say that, from my point of view, worship is for God because God genuinely needs our worship.

In terms of the music, well, there are lots of reasons that music is, and always has been, the primary way that worship is expressed. Music is dynamic and constantly changing, and it cannot be "captured" in any way (even electronic reproduction loses some of the natural resonances and overtones that live music has). It represents nothing other than itself (except when lyrics are added to it - but they aren't music per se). It communicates at a level deeper than the intellect or the mind, and connects us with realities beyond what we can touch see and hear. In a very real sense, music is (or can be) a gateway between the 'physical' and the 'spiritual' realities - what Marcus Borg calls "a thin place". So, if God needs our worship, and music is the primary expression of worship, then God needs our music too - however clumsy our performance of it may be.

For what it's worth....

[bobbygilles]

Remember that the great hymns of the Church have often been about the spiritual formation of believers, to one degree or another. Even something like "Praise God To Whom All Blessings Flow," if you examine the lyrics -- it is not a song of vertical praise. It instructs us in Whom to praise. When we sing it, and many, many other songs -- old and new -- we are primarily instructing, edifying, encouraging and admonishing each other. This has been the tradition of the Church since the beginning, as it should be, because it is founded on Scripture:

Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
-- Colossians 3:16

So, of course "worship" is a continuous outpouring of all we have to our awesome God. But singing worship in corporate settings has both a vertical and horizontal dimension. Doing things (including singing) for God means, in large part, doing things for and with His people.

[travisham]

@ John/Sacredise: Interesting concepts, but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on a few points.

In talking about the Trinity and the way that fellowship and community are part of God's very nature, this doesn't necessarily create a need for Him to create us. If anything, the perfect fellowship and community that has eternally existed between the three persons of the Godhead removes any need for anyone else. I don't think that God was lacking in anything. If He was, then Paul wouldn't have told the men of Athens that, "the God who made the world and all things in it, since he is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things."(Acts 17:24-25) God said to Asaph, "If I were hungry I would not tell you, for the world is Mine and all it contains... Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I shall rescue you, and you will honor Me."(Psalm 50:12-15) Jesus even made it clear that He came "not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many".(Mark 10:45)

Granted, woven in God's character are love, grace, and a desire for glory so that it certainly makes sense that He would choose to create people with hearts and minds that could reflect that glory back to Him as they experience and respond to His love to not only create us but then redeem us. Still, I don't think He needed to create us, but rather that He graciously chose to do so and that His gracious choice came out of the overflow of His completeness rather than any void of need.

I would also respectfully disagree that music is the primary way that worship is expressed - especially considering that the New Testament seems to place a greater emphasis on worshiping God in every sphere of life rather than with music (Romans 12, 1 Cor 10:31). I've known deaf believers who have never heard music, but I'm positive that even though they may not be able to use that means to worship God that they worship Him still. I believe that the Father, in seeing His gracious character reflected back to Him as those He redeemed joyfully respond to Him and follow His Son in loving Him and loving others, is just as pleased with their worship as He is with the worship that is poured out in song on Sunday. Maybe even more so at times

Wow, sorry for going on and on. John/others I'm not wanting to cause trouble by stirring the pot, and I certainly don't mean to hurt feelings by going against the grain. Thanks y'all.

[cre8ted4praiz]

My thoughts on worship... it's been a discussion at our church of late.

I believe we are to enter INTO the presence of God on Sunday when we attend fellowship together. Our worship is FOR HIM, to give Him glory and honor and our offering... whatever we have to give. I also believe that while we are giving to HIM, we in return recieve His blessings and presence. It is our sacrifice, which He blesses and in response gives to us.

During a recent Wed. night study, two statements were made that truly annoy me (both by lay men in our church). One was "some days I leave service and worship service and think, UGH, is that all there is".... my question is... Did you come to GIVE to God, or to just get that really cool feeling w/out any offering to HIM. We MUST go into worship, in spirit and truth, to our Awesome God and Creator... If we leave feeling this way... what have WE missed? God is always there. Right?

The other thing was... "I remember when I came to church each Sunday expecting God to "out do" Himself from the week before, it's not like that now." HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! When did you stop coming and expecting. If we expect nothing... don't we kind of get nothing? I believe a true problem with us "pentecostal" types is that if there isn't a lot of "stirring up"... we feel like we have missed something. And I think that is kind of what this dear man was saying... it's gotten a little quiet... no stomping or snorting, or slaying, or whatever.... so where is God and why isn't He doing anything? My question... when did you stop expecting God to meet with us? He is there, we just need to enter in.

All that to say, I believe worship is for both God and US. How can we truly worship God and not be moved at the same time? I know I can't. When I go in with a free mind, and stop worrying about whether sister so and so is going to like the music, or the special, or whatever... when I go just for HIM, because He has been so good to me, blessed me so much, given me so much.... when I worship HIM.... my life is touched and changed and renewed!

[Sacredise]

Hi Travisham,

Sorry it took me so long to reply to this one - I missed your post when it came in. Thanks for your thoughts, and for the challenge you pose to my thinking. I must confess that it made me sit back and think for quite a while before replying. I always enjoy being forced to review my ideas - so thanks again!

I just have two things to say to bounce this back at you if you don't mind:

1. I think what Paul was saying about God not needing anything (as in your Acts 17 reference) is a little different from what I mean. Does God need to be served? Does God need to be fed, clothed, cared for, protected? Definitely no. This, in my view, is what Paul was referring to - because the gods of the people he was speaking to did need these things.

But - and here's the difference - does God need to love? I believe the answer is yes, because if God does not love, God is not being God. Does loving Himself satisfy this need? No, because this is not love in completeness. Love always needs an "other" to love - even for God. This does not somehow diminish God (which I think may be your fear) but rather shows how great God and God's love really is - that God would bind Himself to His creation in this way - even to the extent that God became human (a creature). That's why John says "God is Love" (1 Jn. 4:8) and why the Scriptures make sure we know that Jesus was not some "plan B" as a result of sin, but was always in God's mind - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world..." (Rev.13:8)

2. I agree with everything you said about people being able to worship without music. That's why I didn't say that music is the only way to worship, I simply said it is the primary way. By primary, I mean it is the way we most use, and which has historically been most used - a statement which is backed up by evidence that dates back to the earliest times of human beings. Also, (and to give all my reasons would make this post way too long), music is unique among the arts as a vehicle for worship and as a way to express worship. So, while it is not necessary for worship, it is, I believe, one of the most helpful tools for worship.

I agree that Scripture calls us to take our worship into our whole lives, but there is a distinction, I believe, in the Scriptures between the act of worship and the lifestyle that flows out of it. Paul says "pray without ceasing" but we still distinguish between 'prayer as an act', and 'living life prayerfully'. So, in terms of the 'act of worship', music is a primary (not only) tool. But, in terms of 'living a worshipful life', our actions, attitudes etc. are essential.

I hope this clarifies some of my thinking here. I'm happy for us to disagree on this, though. Thanks again for your thoughts and challenge.

Many blessings
John

[ChadBrooks]

Guess I am throwing myself back in.

As to the discussion involving the relationship within the Trinity. I don't think that God had to create-The Triune God created out of the desire to share this perfect relationship with something else. I will agree with Travis, I don't think God was lacking anything.

If we really want to think about the actions of God, we need to starting thinking about what the supreme attribute of God is-and how that affects everything that flows out of him.

In most modern (contemporary) theology, the attribute of God that is spoken as the most supreme is his sovereignty. But I really think that is a wrong way to think about God. While the triune God's role as king is one that is expressed a good deal, I think we need to start with God's holiness and our concept of person-hood. When we look at the Garden, we see that God made us in His image, and I bet you grew up thinking that meant God looked like a cool old-dude. But if we really break apart God's attributes, we see that God has attributes that distinctly make him God, like the omni's (his relative attributes) and his "absoluteness". But what God did decide to share is what makes him a loving God-this is the idea of biblical personhood and the fact that has humans we have the (limited) capacity to practice love, righteousness, grace, goodness, etc..etc...Basically, this is the fact that God allows humans (as He has these attributes) the ability to practice reason, imagination, emotion and will. Our idea of personhood is based on our abilities to practice these shared attributes in moral choices, freedom,creativity and responsibility. It is through God's holiness that these attributes are expressed, and this sharedness is what makes us in Gods image.

Holiness is the central biblical starting point. At Sinai God told Israel that He wants a holy people because he himself is a Holy God. It is this holiness that sets God apart from all of the various deities in the ANE. Holiness is originally defined in God, remember that many of our idea's of who God is (king, shepard, Father, etc..) is us trying to explain God using human concepts. God will communicate to us in a manner that we understand, as he does to the Jews in the OT, but God's holiness alone is the descriptor that we cannot name a earthly person.

This really affects how we view worship, because we place ourselves (through salvation)inside of the proper relationship that Man was destined for. Throughout the majority of Church History, mans songs directed towards God were not internal, but a re-telling of God's holy nature and a re-hearsing of the biblical history of salvation. So our worship is not just music, but is is us placing ourselves back inside this idea of a proper relationship with the God-head. Augustine taught that Man was originally was created posse non peccare et non mori ( (possible not to sin and die). We were created for the perfect relationship with God, and not acknowledging that in our relationship, and instead focusing on our attempts to come to God, is almost like being stuck in nuetral when you are trying to learn to drive stick...you give it tons of power, but never really go forward. Our worship is a lifestyle back with God-and one of the ways that this is acknowledged when gathered together is through song.

Sorry this was so long, and I don't want it to be harsh at all...I just have been watching this thread and trying to find a way to put all this together.

[Patrick DeRemer]

Jack Hayford wrote in his book Worship His Majesty (Regal Books) that “Worship is to God, but for man.” God deserves and demands the worship because He alone is worthy, but we’re the ones who benefit from worship – it doesn’t alter His worthiness in the least for us to worship Him or not.

[NLoomis]

I have not read every post here, but I would like to offer the following:

In a marriage, for whose benefit does a husband love his wife? The husband's or the wife's? Clearly it is for both. Worship should be the same way. We worship God because it is clearly His due, but at the same time, we were created to worship Him and doing so completes part of our purpose, something we certainly should enjoy.

As for whether or not music can be "hypnotic", I think the answer is almost certainly yes. My question would be, why would it be wrong to "hypnotize" yourself with Truth? I believe wholeheartedly that many religions turn to ritual in prayer and music as a way of "brainwashing" or "hypnotizing" their followers. I think the church has often done this as well. But, man's nature being what it is, our brains (and minds and hearts) need washing. As long as you're washing with the truth, I don't see the problem. No one would ever be criticized for repeatedly reciting a Psalm, even if "hypnotically." If it is the actual Truth of God going into your mind, its a good thing.

Nathan

[windbag]

If I can liken worship to prayer, what benefit do we gain from prayer? Both are communication with God, but why do we pray anything other than needs? Why are there prayers of praise and thanksgiving, if worship already covers that?

We boldly come before the throne of God, because of the blood of Jesus. When we enter into God's presence during worship, that in itself is a benefit to us. Namely, we are not consumed, and our presence is welcomed by Almighty God!! What a benefit. We stand before Him as friends and children. If that doesn't stoke us, what would?

Psalm 103 details some benefits that God offers us. Bless the Lord, oh my soul, and all that is within me. Bless His holy name. Bless the Lord, oh my soul, and forget not His benefits. It's okay that we derive benefit from our relationship with Him. It's more than okay; it's biblical.

[windbag]

I didn't check the dates on these posts, and realized after posting that this isn't a new thread. Consequently, I only read the first page of posts. Now that I'm up to speed on the conversation, I must chime in and address the concept that God needs anything.

God defined Himself in Isaiah 46:9-10. He says: Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

I will do all my pleasure. That, in essence, defines God.

If you have found anything-anything-that either compels or constrains God, then I suggest you begin to worship that thing, because it is more powerful than He is. God is complete within Himself. To suggest that God needs man is a dangerous notion to contemplate.