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Pope banning contemporary worship

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  • #16
    Wow...mikeym and don z., your posts were amazing. Great thoughts and compelling writing. Score another 20 points for TWC.
    All that hath life and breath, praise ye the Lord!
    In His Name,
    Kim

    http://soundcloud.com/inhisname

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    • #17
      Pope's music

      I'm not sure if the article was taken entirely in context or not. With foreign news, sometimes things are missing in the translation. To me it seemed there was more energy being directed at the local music situation and some quality issues, as opposed to a general change in the music of the greater church. That being said, I agree with the prior post that suggests the Pope is a bit disconnected from the flock. His comments over time demonstrate a pattern of scholarly expertise but also a lack of real world experience. His insensitivity to the nature of people and where they are today is most concerning. If he really is moving toward a return to the Gregorian Chant, and other forms of older music, it would put him at a seriously troublesome crossroads in the life of the Catholic Church. He would be dwelling in the land of man made rules and preferences, as opposed to the Kingdom of God. I would hope and pray that he find ways to follow Christ's instruction to Peter, and "feed my sheep". The sheep want and need fresh grass, and properly made and stored hay and grain. They need fresh water. Depleted pastures and old feedstuffs are not good for the flock, and can cause harm. Maybe a bit of time with the flock would be instructional to this Pope?

      Blessings...
      Dave

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      • #18
        As a Catholic, I find this thread rather condescending.

        The last two popes have traveled far more extensively than 99% of all evangelists before them. They had carried the weight, not only of being true to Christ (as dictated throughout the Gospels, and throughout all of Church history, all twenty-plus centuries worth) but weighing those factors against the diverse myriad cultures and customs and languages and political systems and flavors across seven Continents.

        Could it be that it is _we_, who live in a bubble, of our own culturally-defined choosing? If so, wouldn't it be prudent to respectfully hold our tongues until both musical traditions, chant and contemporary, can be fully understood?

        Respectfully,
        Nick
        Nick Alexander
        Host, The Prayer Meeting Podcast
        Worship that is Contemporary, Traditional, Charismatic, Contemplative, Spontaneous, based on the Church calendar, play it whenever you want.
        Find out what Nick Alexander can do for your conference, retreat or workshop.

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        • #19
          Nick,

          I agree that the last two Popes traveled. That is in part to the age we live in and the ease traveling has become.

          That does not detract from the main argument that figureheads surround themselves with other academics. You will not see the Pope surrounding himself with a committee of knowledgeable musicians of this generation to really look at the lyrical and musical content of contemporary Christian music. What you will find is a group of academics approximately 55 years old or older - all out of touch with trends of young people today.

          Music is icing on the cake. It does not have to exist in a service at all. However, if you are going to praise or worship with song, then you have to use music that actually gets people of the current time period praising and worshiping. I do not think that can be done with a complete diet of traditional or Gregorian chant. Better to remove music entirely and face the music, pun intended, of having our young people find other churches than to plan on using the wrong music and they leave the church entirely because they cannot relate.

          If the Pope really wished to make a wise decision, he would put a committee together of priests from a diverse set of circumstances and then build a quorum of ideas from that. He may be very surprised to see what sort of responses he would get.

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          • #20
            Don,

            in all due respect, I have watched the pope use contemporary worship at large gatherings, as well as culture-specific worship when travelling at other countries.

            I suspect you would prefer he drop every musical style in deference to your own. Because if your preferred musical form were to take careful analysis and investigation (for all it's merits and faults... lots of faults, lots of merits...), then it would be only fair for the numerous myriad musical traditions to also have a seat at the table.

            In the meantime, i find your condescension towards this current pope absolutely laughable. Have you actually watched these last two popes--different personalities and styles--address the different youth from across the countries? These two fully connected with their audience, esp Benedict, who is a teacher by trade. I have quoted him from his Cologne appearances, and they do not fail to inspire those whom I am addressing.

            I like both chant and praise and worship. But for a Catholic liturgy, the music isn't the end-all and be-all. It is Christ Himself. Chant has the benefit of being around for many many centuries, including the theory that Pope Gregorythe Great (4th century) wished to return to the musical forms from the time of Christ. That makes a legitimate theory as to the reason chant is preferred.

            But it does not mean praise and worship has no place in the full spectrum of opportunities to witness to the broader culture. Just not at Mass. For some of the poorly written praise and worship out there (MWS' _Agnus Dei_ being the worst offender), I cannot agree more.

            But if there was a way for the styles to work, it would take some training in humility on your part. There is a whole lot more here, and I am scratching the surface as I study both groups for myself.
            Last edited by NickAlexander; 08-03-2010, 10:34 AM.
            Nick Alexander
            Host, The Prayer Meeting Podcast
            Worship that is Contemporary, Traditional, Charismatic, Contemplative, Spontaneous, based on the Church calendar, play it whenever you want.
            Find out what Nick Alexander can do for your conference, retreat or workshop.

            Comment


            • #21
              Nick,

              I disagree. I do not think that any one music is the solution. That is the entire point to my post. You have to use all the tools available to you to reach the diverse community of people that is out their.

              I am in a community where we use traditional hymns mixed in with lightly blended contemporary charts. I am sensitive to my congregation's worshiping needs and that is what is important.

              I suggested the diverse committee of common priests and clergy because they are NOT academics and therefore 'of the people' for the most part. The Pope would benefit from receiving council from those that are sitting in the trenches on topics such as this. Those that sit so far removed cannot truly find the pulse of the church. It is the same in our denomination. One must never believe him or herself above another. Christ said that he that seeks to be first will be last and those that are last will be first. We should always look to this when we approach servant leadership. We lead, but we lead as Jesus lead. He was willing to wash the feet of His disciples... The heads of the church must be willing to do the same.

              Music is a powerful tool for worshiping God. David proved that. The Pope simply has to be cautious with whom he surrounds himself with. Everything he does in today's society is being watched and I am sure like you mentioned there is a lot of that article that got lost in translation. Still, the whole world is watching to see what policies he sets. It is the price of doing business for the RCC.

              Peace,

              Don

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              • #22
                Don,

                You're not quite seeing my point.

                Mass holds a very different function, than say, a tent revival or a praise and worship event.

                The latter can be likened (in a positive way), to a Beatles convention. The former can be likened to hanging out at Paul McCartney's house. Very different places, very different functions.

                And all the talk of the Pope being so out of touch... Did you not read my comments? This Pope knows his audiences incredibly well. I even gave you a reference to read for yourself.

                You are entitled to believe what you want about the pope, but much of your opinion here strikes me as bearing false witness.

                There is more to this story, and you really don't have a grasp about the differences between music for liturgy, and music for evangelistic purposes. And then to add to that your faulty analysis about being out of touch...while not recognizing how he has indeed related to the millionsof diverse pilgrims.

                And if you don't care for the office of the Pope, that is a subject outside the scope of these forums. There is much written here that simply isn't on the same page.

                Peace,
                Nick
                Nick Alexander
                Host, The Prayer Meeting Podcast
                Worship that is Contemporary, Traditional, Charismatic, Contemplative, Spontaneous, based on the Church calendar, play it whenever you want.
                Find out what Nick Alexander can do for your conference, retreat or workshop.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Nick,

                  I apologize if we seem to be running around in circles here.

                  The RCC and the Protestant Church do not agree on many things. I do not want to keep this conversation going because I am concerned that we will only end up hurting each other with what we will say.

                  We obviously have different opinions on this matter and I think we should simply back away now and leave it be.

                  Peace,

                  Don

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                  • #24
                    Don, I accept your apology. If I offended you in like manner, please accept mine.

                    I do want to be clear, however.

                    It is one thing to look upon the papal office, and have theological disagreements with how the Roman Catholic Church had interpreted Scriptures to come up with the doctrine it now has (which, let's be honest, is far different from what a lot of non-Catholics presume it to be... journalists included).

                    It is another thing to taint a person's character, painting with a broad brush, basing your thesis upon a newspaper article (which, we can agree, can be faulty), and your perceptions of the day-to-day life of this person, from afar.

                    It is of the second issue I take umbridge with. I do not expect much anybody else here to hold the same theological convictions I have, and I do wish to be tolerant of our differences.

                    It may be that one day, our liturgies would be purged of anything modern-sounding. But this lone article was published years ago, and I can attest that nothing has been done to eradicate liturgies from modern musical elements. It's a long, long road from the pope, to the cardinals, to the bishops, to the local parish priest, not to mention the politicking behind liturgical music publishers and differences in language and style. Even for those few places where there has been a change (eradicating "Yahweh" from texts, for example), it does not change the fact that sometimes, a music minister and corresponding priest would be oblivious to the pope's call to action, and nothing would be changed.

                    It is far, far, more complicated than the discussion on this board gives credit to, and it is in this manner that it felt right to step in and object. In the meantime, whereever God has been blessing you, may He continue to allow His graces to bless you and your family, in abundance.

                    Nick
                    Nick Alexander
                    Host, The Prayer Meeting Podcast
                    Worship that is Contemporary, Traditional, Charismatic, Contemplative, Spontaneous, based on the Church calendar, play it whenever you want.
                    Find out what Nick Alexander can do for your conference, retreat or workshop.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Common Ground

                      Nick:

                      It has been my experience that the more complicated we make things, the more we distance ourselves from Christ. This site is no exception. When we get buried in the complexities of human preferences and traditions, we step away from the pure message of God's love that makes us one. There is no condescension in Christ. There should be none in His Church, but unfortunately that is part of the human condition. Please accept my apologies if you took offense at my comments. I certainly intended no harm, and fully respect your right to worship and serve in your traditions. I would hope you are of the same cloth with respect to mine.

                      Blessings...
                      Dave

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                      • #26
                        So, in a COMPLETELY unforeseen development, I will be assisting a local Catholic parish develop their LifeTeen program. I will be co-leading music with a local worship leader. Neither of us are Catholic.

                        This should be interesting.

                        ***Update*** I'm currently learning the Mass of Creation. Good stuff. ***Update***

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                        • #27
                          Congrats, El Ben!!

                          If you have any questions regarding how things are done in the liturgy, or for best songs that fit a specific theme or liturgical feast day, do not hesitate to PM me. I'm pretty good at this stuff.

                          LifeTeen, for those who don't know, was partially founded by Dove Award winner Tom Booth, who co-wrote the mid-90s Kathy Troccoli song "I Will Choose Christ." (Booth's co-partner, it should be noted, without going into detail, has scandalized himself and tainted the ministry... but the positive fruits of LifeTeen have lived on).

                          It was also positively written about in the Appendix of Sally Morgenthaler's _exceptional_ opus, "Worship Evangelism".

                          It should also be noted, if you are not aware, that the Catholic church is undergoing a significant liturgical change within the next year, updating its English responses so as to reflect all the more accurately (and beautifully, imo), what the Latin text said.

                          Peace, and Congrats again. This is a big deal.
                          Nick
                          Nick Alexander
                          Host, The Prayer Meeting Podcast
                          Worship that is Contemporary, Traditional, Charismatic, Contemplative, Spontaneous, based on the Church calendar, play it whenever you want.
                          Find out what Nick Alexander can do for your conference, retreat or workshop.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I've been Catholic & played for masses for years. First this isn't the Pope speaking infallibility, it's actually just his preferences. It's sort of like when a new President take office and the singers they bring to the White House are their favorites.

                            I'm sure the sacred music lovers are very glad to have a chant loving Pope because they feel a more formal music environment is needed and wanted. There are some Priests that believe this way and the people they hire reflect this preference. Most Catholic churches I know are somewhere in between. They usually can't afford the highly trained organist and cantors who really need a very high level of expertise and knowledge to pull of this music well. It's more than just three chords and a guitar, no offense. So, many masses of folky type music which was very big after VAtican II, which was a reform in the Church that promoted the music of the area and congregational singing.

                            There are some Catholics who are very loyal to the Pope's preferences just because he is the Pope. Interesting how the article mentioned some composers will be out of luck, so to speak. haha. I just went to a workshop because there will a be new translation of the mass as Advent. There were all types of new masses represented, and so, I don't think it's a church-wide thing but a happy bandwagon for the sacred music lovers to jump on.

                            As the article said, Benedict is very different than John Paul II on this topic.

                            I hope that helps!

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