Copying CD's for band members: Useful tool or copyright infringement?

[AD(J)]

Let's be honest. I've compiled new songs onto a CD for my band members, and I've also received many of these 'New worship compilations' from other WL's in previous churches.

So... what's the deal? Is it Kosher?


EDIT: Yay means no issues, go ahead and burn the CD's: Nay means don't do it.

I suppose there should be a third option for the way Darryn has suggested. Oh well, can't edit the poll now.

[Darryn]

Hello

As far as I have been instructed by people in the industry, there is no copyright infringement if you provide an mp3 to your band for learning purposes as long as you track the copies you create and destroy them once you are done.

I have been handed a burned CD of music for that Sunday and we were to return it at the next practice.

Most people that burn music do not know this... but they also don't care. I have been approached many times by people who say that you should not put a price or sell music that is for worship. I have asked these people if they are willing to steel Bibles (the words of God and much more important then worship). I have never gotten a response.

Anybody elses comments...

[russhutto]

From what I understand, it's both...

1) Useful Tool

and

2) Copyright infringement.

1) Useful tool: As a team we need a practical way to learn music and for members to practice outside of rehearsals on their own. Solution? Burn individual copies for everyone OR convert files to mp3 and upload to some sort of password protected directory. Legal? No.

2) Copyright infringement. A copyright is a copyright. The only legal way to make copies of ANY music is to obtain permission which is an administrative nightmare. In some cases, permission to make lead sheet copies/transparencies/presentation copies is licensed and therefore legal. But I'm not sure of ANY license available yet, that covers actually making rehearsal copies of the recording itself.

An ethical quandary to say the least.

[fmckinnon]

as a resident publisher and somewhat "copyright" knowledgeable person, I'll comment here.

For the most part, it's absolutely 100% a copyright violation. There are cases where some worship leaders will say "I don't care, I'm just happy you are using the songs" .... in this case, you have permission.

I'd like to think that if you copy them, distribute them, and then collect/destroy them that it would be OK, but this is something we've justified, and not really part of the copyright law.

That being said - I'm guilty. I've done it, I do it, and I struggle with the balance of the "letter of the law" versus the "spirit of the law".

I think we should do whatever it takes to try and honor the law. As a published writer myself, I know that it makes a difference when you get those royalty checks. I know that if 100 people decided to let their friends burn my CD, I'm blessed that 100 new people enjoy my music, but what about the $10K in debt I still have from post production, and the $1,000 of income that would've been had they just paid the $10 for the cd.

Lastly - before we tear it all down, let's offer some alternatives. This is where I'm headed ....

We're budgeting to buy each of our praise team members an iTunes gift card, or assign them an allowance in iTunes (which is easily budgeted and managed). Assuming you even teach 20 new songs over the course of a year, that's only $20/person. Not a bad investment for ANY CHURCH BUDGET to know you've obeyed the copyright law.

Just my $.02 - I'm going to email this thread to Susan Fontaine Godwin at Church Copyright Administration and see if she'd consider joining and posting here as well - she's the "Copyright Queen".

Fred

[Darryn]

I must say that I was surprised to hear that you could use mp3's for learning purposes. A good friend went to a national conference and learned that information there. I am now very curios as to the real answer.

To be honest, if I know that it is not legal then I will not do it. I work in music and am very sensitive to legal issues. For that reason all the music we sell at the store I work at comes with a license to create copies for all the musicians in your organization. We would like people to do that.

But.... I would like to know for sure if it is legal in other venues. If not, we should uphold high standards as leaders in our organizations and fallow the letter of the law. I am sure that we can find the right thing to do and still get the things done that we need.

[El Ben]

I do know that with iTunes, the music you buy in mp3 format is legally allowed up to be shared on five different computers, but this is with the express understanding that they are all your personal or business computers, not random friends. You are, of course, allowed to make a hard copy of your music. Personally, I use my iPod so much, I could probably make one CD and let it circulate, but that almost defeats the purpose.

Technically, I suppose you could have your team bring in their various mp3 players and upload the music there, but honestly, wouldn't it just be easier to do what Fred was talking about and budget a small amount of money for your team to have iTunes allowances or cards?

[fmckinnon]

Yeah, I agree - be sure you don't confuse those 5 "authorizations" iTunes gives you with the liberty to give away 5 copies of the tune to other people. For most people, they may want to copy it over to their laptop (or desktop), to their iPod, and burn a CD ... so 5 authorizations is already pretty generous, and is probably in place to minimize the # of claims they get from people accidentally reformatting their drives, etc., without first de-authorizing.

Like I said - if you are going to use mp3 ... (like I do) .. either get permission (if it's an indie), or buy the mp3. It's VERY EASY to get iTunes gift certs (click on the little 125x125 square banner on the right sidebar here on TWC and we just may earn a whopping penny or two from that!) and give them to your praise team.

Then, they are equipped - I think they feel valued because you've invested in them, you set a high standard of ethics, it opens the door to the "why" we do it, is a great testimony/witness, and puts us on God's side for not stealing!

[russhutto]

Also, not to sound old fashioned here, but we USED to actually have "listening" sessions (during rehearsal) where we would all stop what we were doing, pop in the original cd and listen to the song about 3 or 4 times. Then immediately following we would rehears the snot out of it. Very effective.

It's actually more labor intensive, but maybe this is the solution (for now) until something changes...if you can't afford to dish out the fundage for everyone to have an itune account or buy cds?

[BillyChia]

At a quick glance I haven't seen anyone yet mention making our own recordings.

My church records the Monday night practice for the band to listen to all week long.

I believe Los (http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com)talked about this in a podcast. I couldn't tell you which one, but you should listen to them all anyway.

We are also going to start using iTunes more.

[fmckinnon]

Billy,
That's a great idea ... and if your church has a CCLI License (http://www.ccli.com) ... if you record your worship services (yes, even the music portion), those CDs are COVERED by the license as long as you don't charge more than $x.00 for them (I forget the amount, but I don't think it's around $5 or less).

It's a lot better way than just ripping the CD you bought at the store, or on iTunes (or worse, the ripped CD you got from somebody else, that they got from somebody else) and giving it away.

[AD(J)]

I think in our case then, I will probably have to end up not copying things anymore and start doing the listening sessions during practice probably, I've done that before.

As far as iTunes gift cards or recording our practices, well... we have no budget at all, so that's not really something that would work for any church, but I can see how it could for many. I mean, I don't even get paid. There is no music department budget or resources, so to speak, except for the things I'm willing to buy for the team personally. I can buy a spindle of blank CD's for 6 bucks, sure. But I can't really afford to buy iTunes cards. My wife's already put a limit on my personal iTunes spending ;) .


It'd be cool if you could make copies of CD's that would last for two weeks and then self destruct. That way, you could license the copying of them for like, .25 or something cheap, and not worry about them going too far. Educational purposes only... or maybe spy purposes, too. Cause spy things always self destruct.

[russhutto]

I think the recording of the rehearsal is a good idea, but doesn't help when you're trying to have your musicians prepared to come IN to the rehearsal ahead of time.

I would use that more for vocals who need to go over their parts more through the upcoming sunday. Or for musicians who just want to plug it in and "memorize" arrangements before sunday.

Here's the options I've seen so far:

1) Burn copies of the original cd (illegal)
2) Have everyone buy the cd (legal, too expensive)
3) Give every one an itunes gift card (legal, but not financially viable for every budget)
4) Have listening sessions (legal, but time consuming)
5) Record rehearsal sessions (legal, but doesn't address the "prepared ahead of time" issue)

Here's what I'm processing out:

If I combine 2 of these methods I can eliminate the need to burn illegal copies and shell out resources that could be used elsewhere.

4) Have a listening session SEVERAL WEEKS ahead of time. We do this 2 weeks out. We listen to the song, pass out lead sheets, and begin to work on the song that week.
5) Record and duplicate the best version from that rehearsal time. Have team members take the recording home and work on it. If the song is done the next sunday (after the immediate one) you can rehearse and record it at least one more time (which should provide team with an adequate rehearsal version).

As far as recording, what about teams that don't have the resources to get all fancy with recordings. What would any of you suggest?

We use a pretty simple cd recorder and then a cd duplicator. What are some hints and tips for doing it inexpensively for those of us here who don't have ANY equipment yet?

[Darryn]

Even if you create your own master recording the musical work is still not permitted to be distributed.

Listening to the songs as a group is a great idea that we have done. But if you listen to a song all week then you pretty much know how to play it by the time you get to practice.

[russhutto]

I'm curious to know which it is. Fred posted that if you have a CCLI license you CAN record the songs, but you just can't sell them. Maybe he meant if they were recorded as part of a specific worship service?

[El Ben]

Fred also brough up an INCREDIBLE suggestion at lunch the other day. Why not buy the same song on iTunes (for $.99) 5 times and burn five copies of it? Sure, you would have to rework your iTunes library a little, but it's a viable solution and you can still burn the CD. It's also a bit more budget-friendly than giving out $120 worth of iTunes cards that may or may not be spent on what you ask it to be spent on.

[WorshipCity]

What's the verdict with the new DRM option that iTunes is offering??? Does that make anything easier? I love the iTunes GC idea! BUT I think there is only 1 maybe 2 other musicians on my team that even have an iPod so life can sometimes be difficult.

[fmckinnon]

Hey -

Good question regarding the DRM option ... I'm not sure on this, but i *THINK* that this removes the "auth count" so you can make as many copies as you want .. but I'm guessing that this still refers to YOUR OWN, PERSONAL COPIES for use in multiple locations or for backups .. I doubt that the increased price is a blanket permission to give it away to whoever you wish.

[travisham]

I'm curious to know which it is. Fred posted that if you have a CCLI license you CAN record the songs, but you just can't sell them. Maybe he meant if they were recorded as part of a specific worship service?

I think you nailed it. The way I understand it, recordings of worship services are really the only recording area that CCLI covers. Currently our church records only the sermon portion of our worship services and I had an idea a while back to record the entirety of the service with the idea of using the song portion to begin creating an online archive of the "BCBC way" of doing songs for our musicians. I figured the archive idea might be kosher as the recordings of the songs would be made during morning worship. I ran the idea by the good folks at CCLI only to be told it would not qualify as legal... it seems the only recording that the license only covers are recording of songs to CD/tape for a worship service and only a certain # of copies can be made (I forget the number - maybe a % of you congregation?) and you must not charge more than $4 US for the recordings. Thus, if I understand correctly, recording a rehearsal may qualify "questionable" as well. Anyone know more about the rehearsal issue?

-travis

[worshiptrench]

From a writers perspective and yes I do get a little CCLI check bi-annually, here is my take.....(mind you this is not the technical way the law reads). If somebody puts my song on a password protected site or distributes a small number of CD's to band/vocal members, it is a win situation for me. The church does the song and reports the CCLI usage. People in the church who otherwise would have never heard my song, now have and might even ask the worship designer where they could get the CD (wallah, again economic gain for me). If I am a stickler and say, "No way you cannot put that song on your site," and they don't do it, I get nada. So it behooves writers to grant these permissions.

[fmckinnon]

Jordan,

I tend to agree - I love the big green CCLI envelope every Feb and August ... and I'm totally on board ... that's why I put all our songs on the site at http://www.highestpraise.com for FREE ... but it doesn't change the law ...

I think most writers are wanting their stuff out there .. but it's the legality and the big publishing firms that are tying them up.

[El Ben]

*shakes fist at the sky*

CURSE YOU, DON MOEN!!! CURSE YOU AND ALL YOUR PETS!!!

[worshiptrench]

I agree that it doesn't change the Law. I was just posting it in case 100,000 of your The Worship COmmunity readers wanted to use my songs....

USE EM BABY and burn em and triple post em on your website. just be good to daddy at CCLI reporting time...hahahaha

[fmckinnon]

Sure thing - seriously, do you have a single page or easy-access to where those songs are posted (ie. lead sheets, audio, etc?)

Do share! There is a songwriting forum here, ya know!

[mathnmusic]

Hey guys,

This is only my second post, but I'm wondering if anyone else has the dilema that I have. See, I don't use the same musicians week to week. I have around 30 to 35 musician's that rotate. They serve one week each month in the 2 main services (modern/contemporary/whatever you want to call it), and one week each month in our "Traditions" service (traditional, blended). Those who are worship leaders or apprentices serve more often in their particular areas. These musicians are varied in their experience from incredible to beginners (mostly beginners or at least young in their skills)

Here's what that means for me:
1) Can't do 35 gift cards for iTunes--$'s too steep
2) Try to get CD's returned to me, but (reality check) it's the last thing that they are thinking of when they get up to come in on Sunday morning, and the last thing that I'm thinking of while overseeing everything that's going on and getting ready to lead service.
3) House recordings from the tape out to CD burner stink! And I don't have time to go back and put all of the service recordings into my computer as mp3's and catalogue everything that we've ever used.
4) I like the listening sessions, but I have to do it 4 weeks in a row to hit everyone one time. (Although, this is what I typically do)
5) Not even mentally ready or willing to consider putting files online until someone tells me for a fact that I can do it legal and cheap.

So, does anyone else use multiple worship teams on rotation? and how do you handle this issue?

Also, those of you who have industry connections... how about starting something like ccli or cvli that allows worship pastors to do the very things that we are discussing and do "copy reports" every so often to take care of the details.

[BillyChia]

Hey guys,

So, does anyone else use multiple worship teams on rotation? and how do you handle this issue?



Bump.

I'd be really curious to hear an answer on this one.

[fmckinnon]

Hey,
We don't have totally different teams - but we rotate different people in and out ... try to keep the rhythm section together, pretty much.

[mathnmusic]

Fred,

I heard on your last podcast that you've got free time now that your company fow acquired... how about starting that service up for us? (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) Aren't you looking for a new company yet? (I haven't figured out the emoticons yet, but I'd put a few in if I could>)

[fmckinnon]

Hey,

Nice suggestion .. but NOoooooo WAaaayyyy!

That would be one massive undertaking, and would pull me away from my passion .. one of the whole reasons I got out of the hosting biz! (I actually enjoyed the whole server/hosting stuff ... it just got stressful and competitive, and working as a Full-Time Worship Director in my local church, I couldn't keep it going).