Handling problem team members.

[Mike Darley]

I just want to get your thoughts and perhaps experiences on dealing with problem members on your worship teams. To give some examples from my team, we have two ladies who have a hard time staying on key to the point that it is becoming distracting. When I auditioned them they sounded fine. They weren't the strongest singers, but definitely on key. For some reason on certain songs they just can't hear it. I've done the whole general statement thing where I've said stuff like, "Let's make sure we're paying attention to our pitch here" and so on. I've even addressed them personally. Still nothing. What do you guys think? Do I just put up with it? Ask them to step down? I'm really not sure? When is the lack of talent enough to be removed from the team? I know now that I need to be a little more careful in the worship team tryouts, but where do I go from here?

We also have another lady who fancies herself a diva. I'm sure you know the type. She constantly wants to run the harmonies during practice before the service even when people are streaming in, and we've run over the songs like 20 times. She gets very upset if everything is not perfect. (We're in a temporary setting where we can only practice before services.) Anyway, I know I just need to sit down and talk to her, but maybe you guys can suggest some ways you've dealt with similar situations, or can give some pitfalls to avoid. Any advice would be much appreciated.

[PassageNorth]

Some situation you're in there! There are lots of options here for your singers that aren't on pitch. Have you tried getting them a cd with the songs on it for them to practice on their own time? Hopefully your musicians practice on there own to hone their craft. It should be the same with your vocalists. The songs they are having difficulty with could be in too high of a key. If this is the case you could assign lower harmonies, change the key to something more reachable for them, or even have one of them sing lead and you could sing harmony since you can hear it.

With your so called diva, here is what I would do. As the worship leader....DELEGATE!! Actually put her in place of working the harmonies with your group. If she ends up causing disunity or division, take the privelage away from her and tell her that it may be her gift to hear the harmonies but people are upset with her because of her know it all attitude. You gave her a chance to prove herself! She can't fault you for that. Your other people in your team may get upset with you but explain to them the situation. Who knows...maybe you have someone that will do a great job in the harmony department and it will free up your time for something else. Like keeping your drummer on time!!:rolleyes:

[Mike Darley]

I was able to talk to our diva today. It went well. I think we were able to hammer some things out. I believe things will get better.

As far as our flat singers. I've tried almost everything I can think of to help them. I don't think the problem is that the songs are too high. They don't seem to be staining when they're singing. I can't switch them to lower harmonies because they can't sing harmony. I've done everything I can think of to help them with pitch, but it hasn't helped. I'm basically dealing with two situations. I can either put up with it or find a nice way to tell them its not working out. I'm very excited about either.

[PassageNorth]

My honest opinion is that 3 people singing the melody all the time is overkill and frustrating when the notes aren't being hit! In some instances it is necessary to have that many singing melody, but all the time? Can't do it! Are they teachable? If you taught them how to sing harmony would they? At least then you could get a better grasp of what they do hear and are able to sing. Some of the problem might be their confidence level on the platform. That will come with time. If their heart is to worship...stick with them for a little longer. If it isn't....???

[worshiptrench]

Ahh, my case is made for a trial run for a month or so after people audition is made. We do this to see how they function in a "real world" situation. If they cannot sing on pitch, somehow you'll need to remove them, as painful as that may be. God has gift them for an area of service to the body and if you keep letting them sing (obviously not their primary area of service to the body since holding pitch is 101 of singing) you are actually robbing the body of where they could serve it. (You need to have the leadership star conversation...man i need to post that up on the trench soooo bad...i promise to do it this week).

True story, we had a lady audition for us. She was okay. She sang a couple of weeks and wasn't. We told her, "This isn't your primary area of gifting/talent to serve the body." She was a friend and said, "Wow, that is an elegant way of saying, 'Sorry,you stink.'" She was asked to lead a sports camp for kids that she agreed to do. There were 800 kids the first year, 50% of them did not go to NorthWood and large percentage of those were unchurched. She hit a home run in her leadership. One day I told her, "You did a great job on that." Her reply shocked me a little. She said, "Thank you for not letting me sing on worship team. If you had said yes to me, when they asked me to do sportscamp, I would have told them no, because my time for ministry was already committed." Just goes to show you, honest is the best policy.

As to handing leadership to someone who already has a diva-ish attitude....that would just be plain crazy. Only raise up to leadership people who first have the character and relational chemistry needed to lead. If she sucks the life out of you and others now, it will only be magnified if you extend her leadership. I wouldn't do it until I had seen a radical transformation in her attitude over some time period.

Just my thoughts.

[AD(J)]

I hate divas. ;) I've dealt with a few back when I was just a lead guitar player, and they really can suck the life out of a band. I was struggling to worship at all because of the way things were going at times.

I have adpoted a motto that I heard a worship leader I worked with say quite often; 'I'll always take the mediocre player whose heart is in the right place, who always shows up for practice on time, over the incredible player who is only half committed.'

I think the essence of that idea can apply to this situation as well. If a person is taking more from the group than they are offering, that's an indication of their attitude towards worship. I want people who have a desire to worship God so we can hold each other up as worshipers and as friends. When someone in the group throws the dynamic off in a negative way, it has to be addressed.

I've never had to ask anyone to step down yet personally, so I cannot say I have experience in that specific area. But I have had 'the talk' with a couple people, and it really did make a difference. Each, in their own way, made adjustments and really began to add to the worshipful attitude of the group. The music part was always there, but the attitidue was now correct, and we saw a difference in the congregational response, too.

Bad attitudes on a worship team can most certainly hinder worship.

[SaintLewis]

I was able to talk to our diva today. It went well. I think we were able to hammer some things out. I believe things will get better.

As far as our flat singers. I've tried almost everything I can think of to help them. I don't think the problem is that the songs are too high. They don't seem to be staining when they're singing. I can't switch them to lower harmonies because they can't sing harmony. I've done everything I can think of to help them with pitch, but it hasn't helped. I'm basically dealing with two situations. I can either put up with it or find a nice way to tell them its not working out. I'm very excited about either.

for me it depends on HOW flat they are - if it isn't TOO bad, and they show some future promise, or just have HEART that encourages others to worship, let them sing, but either place them further from the mic (if in a choir setting) or tell the sound guy to keep their microphones lower in the house.

Anyway, those are ideas...blessings

[russhutto]

smite them.

just kidding.

[Mike Darley]

or tell the sound guy to keep their microphones lower in the house.

Problem is the the sound guy is one of the flat singers' husband.

[Mike Darley]

Ahh, my case is made for a trial run for a month or so after people audition is made. We do this to see how they function in a "real world" situation.
Just my thoughts.

Oh, sure. Now you tell me. Just kidding. That's really good advice. I wish I'd thought of it before this whole situation.

Another part of the problem is that some of the other team members have started to complain about the flat singing. These are people who normally do not complain. I've even had a couple of people from the congregation mention it as well. I know I probably need to talk to the ladies, I just want to know what I should say, and how to say it.

[AD(J)]

Problem is the the sound guy is one of the flat singers' husband.

Wow.. I'd call that being caught between a rock and a hard place.

[Mike Darley]

Okay, so I think I've come up with a half-way decent way to deal with this situation. To begin with, we have quite a few people who are in the process of joining the church, and will then join the worship team. (We have a policy that team member must be church members, but that's a subject for another post. :rolleyes:) Anyway, with so many new members joining I think I'm going to have to have a tryout. What I'm going to do is extent this "tryout" to current members, as well, since we never really had an original tryout. We're a small church plant, and originally had no worship team. When we started the team it was basically whoever knew how to play or sing. Looking back this was obviously not the best way to do things. In any case, we need to set up some kind of process, and I can see no better time to do it. I'll definite do the whole one month trial period mentioned. I will still be difficult to tell someone they didn't make it, but I think it will be easier on the gals as well as on myself, and it will be a way to begin a necessary process.

Let me know what you guys think.

[Mike Darley]

Wow.. I'd call that being caught between a rock and a hard place.

Tell me about it. I wonder how the guy will react if she's cut. He's actually a really nice guy. Very gracious, but if his wife's feeling get hurt you never know.

[El Ben]

Well, if you are sure your flat singers are not tone deaf, then I'd say that all you need to rectify the problem is time. Pitch, as EXHAUSTIVELY explained in my post concerning the basics of vocal dynamics (http://www.theworshipcommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234), is a delicate balance between an idividual's ability to hear and associate variances in the vibration of their vocal chords and the sound coming out of their mouth AND air support. A lack of the latter can be rectified with breathing exercises and just plain practice. The lack of the former is a problem of degrees.

As aforementioned, if your flat singers turn out to be tone deaf, then there's pragmatically no future in pursuing ministry via singing. There's just no point. It would be like a professional boxer with no sense of smell trying to be a professional chef. If, however, you flat singers just lack training or practice, then all you need is a little time (I'd give it a year or so) and they'll be fine.

I'd say 60% of being a great singer is being gifted and the other 40% is practice, practice, practice. I can remember a time when I couldn't tell you if I was even singing in the right key or not, and now I'm the harmony nazi. I understand your frustration, but ultimately, the problem might just need time.

Here's my suggestion if you think your singers are NOT tone deaf and have a future just given time and practice:

Sit your singer(s) down and preface this situation like this: "Listen, I believe in you, and I think that you have a lot to offer this church with your gifts and abilities, and I want to help you develop those gifts and abilities if you'll let me, but before I help you, I need to know if you're committed 100% to being the absolute best member of this team that you can be, because I don't want to waste your time if this isn't something you'd like to pursue."

Ask her to answer honestly. If she isn't committed, then don't bother going any farther. If she is committed, then I'd continue in a manner similar to this:

"Okay, now that I know you're 100% committed, I want to help you be the best singer you can be. Now, in order for you to be the best singer you can be, you might have to hear some things that aren't necessarilly what you want to hear. Are you ready to hear those things?"

(Most everyone will answer yes. At this point, (barring you make them feel like crap by how you word the next statement) you'll be off the hook if their feelings are hurt, because you gave them TWO ways out of the conversation. I would continue like this:

"The truth is that right now, I don't believe you are singing at 100% of your potential, and that's okay for right now, but it won't be okay forever. I expect each and every musician on this team to grow and stretch themselves and their abilities, so here's what I propose to you. For the next four weeks, we're going to cut back your vocals in the house and cut them up in the monitors so that you can get a better idea of where your voice fits in the mix. During that time, I want you to sing as much as you can every day, be it in the car, in the shower, whenever you can. I'll also be helping you out as much as I can during this time, and I'm confident that in no time, we can have your talent level twice what it is right now."



Okay, so I know that was wordy, and I'm not saying you have to say that verbatim, but it's firm enough to get the point across and gentle enough to not hurt her feelings (unless she is hyper-sensitive, in which case, her feelings are probably already hurt anyway.)

Gotta go, I'm meeting the Tone Guru for Quizno's. Hold on Jay, here I come!

[worshiptrench]

Use the leadership star (http://www.worshiptrench.com/?p=142) and say
I care about you enough to be fair and honest. (strengths) I appreciate your dedication to the team, etc. (stressor/difficulty) It seems that you are having trouble maintaining pitch and I know I correct you a lot on it. I know that might stress you a little and it causes difficulties for me. I want to free you up to your strengths by

you choose
1) us watching your pitch and working on it together to see if we can make this work (suggest lessons, etc.)
2) utilizing your dedication to the team and moving you laterally to X position (powerpoint, organizer, etc.)
3) finding a place in the church where we can take that dedication to the team and coordinate it with other gifts that you have (then actually work with her to find the position)

It ain't easy, but it is needed.

[El Ben]

Ooooh. Great tool. Much better than the term paper that was my previous post. :)

[fmckinnon]

Hey Ya'll,

Another practical solution ... that can easily be overlooked. If the pitchiness comes and goes .. it could have everything to do with monitoring ... if a singer can't hear themselves in the monitor mix properly, they will sing off key. Check to see if they if they are in the monitors loud enough ... I know, scary thought to turn the flat singers UP .. but it may be all they need to sing in KEY.

[worshiptrench]

One other suggestion:

outboard pitch correctors such as the 5 Antares ATR-1's we use to give that last little bit of help.

[Mike Darley]

I think we would need a little more than a pitch corrector. :eek: The pitch issues are getting worse...or maybe I'm just noticing more. This week, the way it the schedule worked out, the two ladies with pitch issues were off. I got several compliments on how things sounded. We're almost in our new building so it's almost time to make the changes. :o I'm not looking forward to it.

[worshiptrench]

The building brings with it the perfect opportunity to tweak and realign. We did this when we started our satuday night service as it was a paradigm shift. We are doing it in the tech world as we move into our new 2,000 auditorium in December. Yeehaa.

[El Ben]

The time might have come for a probationary period, stevie. There is no shame in telling these ladies (in a kind way and in all honesty) that it is just not working out for them. I'd offer to keep the lights on for them so long as they get voice lessons, but if it's as bad as you say, it might be time to bite the bullet.

My pastor always recommends "the sandwich" in these kinds of situations. You know, where you sandwich correction or dismissal between two buttered pieces of encouragement bread, and hold the cheese.

Whatever the case is, there's no easy decision here, I'm afraid.

[Mike Darley]

Yeah, I'm about to have to do it. I'm actually starting a policy that if someone wants to sing on the team they have to be able to sing both melody and harmony, and sing solo. (Basically, if you're not willing or able to do that, then you have to ask why you're up there?) We're actually moving down to only having four vocalists at a time and rotating them to help clear up some of the muddiness in the mix, and because of stage space. I'm going to leave the door open, and say if they grow as a vocalist they can always come back. There may still be some hurt feelings, but hopefully not terribly.

[Mike Darley]

Well, I went ahead and dropped the bomb. I told the team of my decision to move to only four vocalists on a Sunday, and that this would require all of them to sing both melody and harmony. Everyone seemed to be happy with the idea except, of course, those who don't sing harmony. The way I decided to do things is that these people are not off the team, rather they're going to have to sit in on the practices until they are ready to sing on a Sunday. I'll let you know the fallout.

[worshiptheKing]

I know I am late weighing in but this has been a very informative thread. MY problem is that I stepped into a team that was already in existance. I have 7 total singers other than myself. Some try to sing a harmony, not very well. The others sing melody, again, not very well. I have heard a couple of them sing by themselves and they are fair-OK. Put them with a group and it is a muddy sounding mess. It is sooooooo frustrating. I find myself saying, "I'll start this sections, you guys filter in on the 2nd line/chorus/whatever" just because the beginning of the song is so critical in setting the mood. I almost wish I had started from scratch.

My ideal new member comes to practice for several weeks with the understanding that this is an evaluation period with no expectaions of acceptance. If they fit in, I invite them to become a member of the team and put them on the schedule.

[Mike Darley]

You may want to consider moving down to fewer vocalists per service, and rotating them. That's what we're doing. My team is actually pretty decent, but with so many voices it still muddies it up. Could be our system, could be conflicting voices, vibratos and such. With only Sunday mornings to practice we don't have the time to work on vocals as much as I'd like. Anyway, you may want to run that by the team. They may be more willing to be flexible on practices if they don't have to be there every week.

[El Ben]

Good call, Stevie.

A rotation not only gets the massive schmorgasborg (which is probably not the right way to spell that word) of singers out of your hair and resets the team to a manageable, smaller group.