Non-Christians on the Worship Team [Archive] - The Worship Community Forums

AD(J)

07-30-2007, 10:02 AM

5 Questions:

Who should we allow on stage Sunday morning?

I don't think this is as cut and dried as a 'Christians only' policy. This is not someone teaching Hermeneutics's. It's praising God, which is a lot more natural than we've made it sound as a body of believers.

First off, worship isn't just a 20-minute musical experience on Sunday mornings. It's whatever you do with an idle Tuesday afternoon, or that thing you've been looking forward to for months. Whenever we place someone or something in high esteem, look forward to it, or spend multiple hours preparing for it and dedicated to it, there is a level of worship in that.

Worship literally means the worth we ascribe to something.

That being said, if someone shows an interest in being musically involved in a church setting, it's my job to get to know the person and feel it out. Sure, there should be some basic requirements like, say, they're not the kind of person to go on a swearing rampage at the drop of a hat. That's a good thing to avoid on the stage at church.

And I think this will bleed into some of the other questions, but if a person with little or no deep understanding of God, or maybe just no regular 'walk' (to use the Christainese term), gets interested in worship music, shouldn't that be a clue to us that something is going on? Maybe that's God working in their life. I want to be in the position to enable that person to explore that the best way I can.

I consult God, my pastor and my wife.. and go from there.

What are your standards for allowing someone on the team?

To me, it's a desire not only to worship, but to grow as a worshiper. If that's how someone is thinking, if that's how they first begin to know and understand relationship with God, I want to do everything I can to foster that.

I fall back on this adage I heard; God doesn't call the prepared, he prepares the called.

Everywhere in scripture God is using people who the modern church probably kick off the worship team or at the very best, ignore in the back row, hesitate to let them help out at the annual church picnic, yadda yadda yadda... I know that steps on some toes, but let's be honest, we're human, and that stuff happens all the time.

If a modern-day Saul came in to my church wanting to help out, saying God had changed his name and given him a mission, even I'd have my doubts. Sad, but true.

Can an unbeliever lead a believer in worship?

Lead? Probably not, or at least not very well. But can they worship? Absolutely. Sometimes even more freely and with less inhibition than a lifelong Cristian.

Can the "worship team" be an avenue for evangelism? If so how?

This is sort of where I was going with the first question.

When someone is new to the church, completely new, of course they're not going to have their systematic theology down or have the position papers of the church memorized.. but hey, neither do I.

But when that desire to use a talent like musicianship leads a person to want to explore worship, I cannot just say no. I will meet with a person, get coffee, get to know them a little better. Then I pray about it, try to get a sense of why they want to be involved, what is their motive? I involve my pastor and my wife in this process, to keep me in check, too.

If it seems like they just want their next fifteen minutes of fame since 'the rock band' just isn't working out, then I'll probably encourage them to sit in with us during practice for a few weeks anyway, and hope that changes. I try to get them to go through a book with me about worship, see if that makes a difference. I make sure not to just hand them a WOW CD, cause really... sometimes that's just.... ish.

I try to just live it out the best I can and see what happens. This won't last long before that relationship goes one way or another, and unfortunately, that's what evangelism is like.

But when there's that spark of excitement and curiosity about God, when I feel that their motive is more along the lines of "I don't know what worship really is, in depth, but man I want to find out".... I pretty much use the same approach as above, but maybe try to get that ball rolling a little faster. When someone really has that desire and is just looking for the right way to express it through music, there's usually much less hesitation.

I know this works because this is more than half the reason I am here as a lead worshiper today. This was my real starting point all those years ago.

How do you incorporate evangelism into your worship ministry?

I think that last one answered this one as well. Getting someone involved, at least in the practices at first, and just living out what it means to be a Christian and a worshiper.

El Ben

07-30-2007, 11:53 AM

Let me preface by saying that these only my opinions and that ultimately, it's up to your pastor. I'm not sure if there's a cut and dry answer for any of these questions, so I'm answering them all based on my own (limited) leadership experience.

1.) Who should we allow on stage Sunday morning?

- Well, that depends. Who do you WANT on stage Sunday morning? What are you looking for? When it comes to appearances, I think your platform should mirror your people. As far as "allowing" an "unsaved person" on your team...why not? Is worship such a fickle thing that an unsaved person can disrupt it? I think it's important that everyone on your platform be a BELIEVER in that they at least acknowledge that there is a God.

What are your standards for allowing someone on the team?

Like I said, first and foremost they have to at least be open to God.

Secondly, they have to be punctual. I have a hard time sometimes in the place I'm in because of the whole "island culture" thing that says it's okay to be ten or twenty minutes late. I can forgive five minutes, but ten or twenty? Come on.

Thirdly, they have to be actively improving themselves as a musician. It's important to keep yourself fresh and continually develop your talents. I don't care if it's singing in the car or going to a concert or learning how to play jazz. I tell my team to develop themselves musically, and it definitely helps.

2.) Can an unbeliever lead a believer in worship?

I find it difficult to believe that an unbeliever would want to. Can a person who isn't living right lead a person in worship? Sure. Prime example: I personally know one of the producers for a well-known worship leader/artist who said that while that worship leader was in the studio recording a worship album (and this album is considered the defining worship album of its time), he was using marijuanna, cocaine, and drinking. Granted, he got his life right, but not many people know about this and keep talking about what an annointing they feel on that album.

Being used by God has little to do with your relationship with him. To quote a pastor I heard on the radio today (I think it was Chip Ingram), "There's a definied difference between being in fellowship with the Spirit and in relationship with the Spirit. Fellowship implies time spent together, relationship imples being related. Fellowship is optional. Relationship is not."

4.) Can the "worship team" be an avenue for evangelism? If so how?

I don't think it's so much of "can it?" as "why not?" There is a large community of unsaved musicians that would love to play in a tight band, Christian or not. Why deny both them and us the opportunity. They get the fullfillment of being used in their talents, while we get the opportunity to make them into disciples. It's win-win.

5.) How do you incorporate evangelism into your worship ministry?

Good question. I'm thinking of one particular situation right now where a lady in our church had an usaved sister who was a drummer. I invited this lady to come to one of our rehearsals and she really enjoyed it. She had a great time playing with us, and we even hung around afterwards and just jammed a little. She's a former studio drummer, so she's pretty darn good.

Long story short, someone in our church made a comment to her sister about "not being comfortable with an unsaved person on the 'praise team'." Obviouslly I was livid, but the lady was so hurt that she wouldn't tell me who told her this. Obviouslly, this is a touchy subject for me. Thanks to someone who's not even in the worship band that completely ruined a great opportunity for us to reach out ot someone who's completely turned off to us now.

It makes me so angry, I can hardly see straight when I think about it.

Anywho, that's my $.02 worth.

BillyChia

07-30-2007, 09:37 PM

If a modern-day Saul came in to my church wanting to help out, saying God had changed his name and given him a mission, even I'd have my doubts. Sad, but true.

haha, I believe Jesus himself would never be allowed in many of churches I've been a part of.

But when that desire to use a talent like musicianship leads a person to want to explore worship, I cannot just say no. I will meet with a person, get coffee, get to know them a little better. Then I pray about it, try to get a sense of why they want to be involved, what is their motive? I involve my pastor and my wife in this process, to keep me in check, too....

...then I'll probably encourage them to sit in with us during practice for a few weeks anyway...

Great ideas. Inviting someone to hang out for a few weeks on practice night before you let them on stage Sunday morning is excellent not only for those who need to improve their spiritual maturity but also for those who need to improve their musical maturity.

I know this works because this is more than half the reason I am here as a lead worshiper today. This was my real starting point all those years ago.

This is why I am asking these questions. Because of stories like this.

BillyChia

07-30-2007, 09:59 PM

Ben,
Thanks for the post, some wise words I'll need more time to digest. I had to delicious it.

Is worship such a fickle thing that an unsaved person can disrupt it?

Are you answering my question with a question? What, are you trying to be like Jesus or something?

Thanks to someone who's not even in the worship band that completely ruined a great opportunity for us to reach out ot someone who's completely turned off to us now.

This is why I am asking these questions. Because of stories like this.

Mike Darley

07-31-2007, 12:31 AM

I've asked this question before here, but I'll ask it again. What's the point? What are we doing during a worship service? Are we playing with a "tight band?" Are we entertaining? Are we attempting to appeal to the crowd? Our answer to this will inform our answer to most of the questions on this board. First we have to go to Scripture for our answer to how we ought to conduct a worship service. One key verse is Eph 5:18-21. "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, 20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." One thing to notice is the "one another." Here we see Paul writing to the church instructing believers to encourage other believers with music. This is the Biblical picture.

1. Believers in good standing in the church.

2. Refer to answer one. Add to that some level of ability, and desire.

3. No. We're to worship in spirit and in truth. How can someone worship or lead in worship in truth if they don't believe what they're singing to be true?

4. Can listening to worship music have an evangelistic affect? Yes. Should participating in the worship service be evangelistic? No. The Biblical picture of an unbeliever being evangelized in the Bible is in 1 Cor. 14 "24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you." The prophecy issue aside, what we see here is the church doing what the church does, unbelievers coming in, being convicted by the word of God, and falling on their face before God. In other words, the church is about the business of proclaiming God’s word and unbelievers will respond.

5. I like to us songs like “Come Ye Sinners” which preach the Gospel. Basically sing songs that are faithful to Scripture and the word of God will convict and save.

Well, I'm tired now. I'm going to bed.

AD(J)

07-31-2007, 10:27 AM

Wow... the exclusive-club-type church setting. Yeah, I grew up in them, literally every Sunday of my life as long as I can remember, which is exactly why I needed to get saved in my teens. (though there were other factors involved...) I hated church because it was a place where I had to check my brains at the door and just do what I was told.

Um... Let me just apologize ahead of time if I step on some toes. I don't mean to.

See, in Sunday school, I was always taught what to think, not how to think. Even in middle school and into high school. Whenever some topic came up, whatever teacher I had only knew how to look it up in their concordance.

'Just read that verse to your sinner friend and they'll either be saved right there, or they'll run away in guilt.'

Trust me, this doesn't work so well in a post modern society. People want to talk about and experience something real, not just have it read off to them from a book that they're not familiar with. People want meaningful relationships.

In my grade school years I was consistently kicked out of Sunday school because I was asking too many questions. I was a very literal kid, so I'd ask things like, how did Jonah survive for three days in the digestive juices of a giant fish? Didn't he smell? Or, didn't lazarus smell after being dead so long?

Or, If those people with Jesus were supposed to see the kingdom come in power before they died, where is that kingdom come with power now, cause they're all dead, so it should be around here somewhere... right? And, Why are this persons breasts like two phawns? (Ok, in fourth grade, I was asking for trouble with that one...) Anyway, no matter what I was considered disruptive because I wanted to know more, and I wanted reasons, not just scripture quotes and simple, pat answers.

We have to realize that the church needs to be always changing because societies change and as such the needs of those societies change. Jesus is the ultimate need, yes, absolutely, but the way people respond to the gospel changes.

The principles behind each scripture never change, but the way they are applied must. Women weren't told to be silent in the church in the New Testament because a woman speaking in the church is bad altogether. There was a specific reason why that letter was written to that community for that rule needing to be enforced for a while. Women's silence in the church was not the biblical precedent, it was something entirely different. There was a valid reason behind it. How many years did we, as a church, misquote that one and tell women to keep it down?

Most Americans have already heard enough of the 'Too bad, you're a sinner' from us Christians, so until they see us living something different, why should they care to change?

If my unbelieving musician-friend were to ask to get involved in my worship team, and I said no and just read off 1 Cor 14 to him as my reasoning, he wouldn't be instanlty changed... he'd probably say, 'Whatever, jerk. I just wanted to see what it was like, see if you were for real...' He'd walk away upset and I'd have my work cut out for me in trying to heal that wound, and the many others already there, dealt to him by the modern church.

The fact is, the biblical picture of an unbeliever being evangelized is a lot bigger than one verse, and it's likely not going to come down to a simple formula. It's a case by case basis.

The biblical picture of someone being evangelized is Jesus. Jesus consistently hung out with the crap of society, he usually met some immediate, human needs before he said 'Turn away from your life of sin.' Jesus found out who a person was, and spoke life into their world. Jesus gave people more than salvation, he gave them a reason to want that salvation by showing them forgiveness or love when they needed it most and deserved it the least.

That's why, if my unsaved friend wants to jam with us, he can. That is just one more opportunity for that person to see something real in Christians.

Because in the end, shouldn't an unbeliever showing interest in worship be an indication that maybe, just maybe, God is already at work in their life?

IMHO, The church has used scripture to keep sinners at a safe distance for far too long.

El Ben

07-31-2007, 12:02 PM

I've asked this question before here, but I'll ask it again. What's the point? What are we doing during a worship service?

-We are creating an atmosphere where people can connect and worship God the Father, through Jesus, by the Holy Spirit. We are serving. It isn't about us. It's about them.

Are we playing with a "tight band?"
-For quality's sake, I would certainly hope so. Play with a band that isn't tight isn't fun, especially for a worship leader. :)

Are we entertaining? Are we attempting to appeal to the crowd?

-To ask this is insulting. What do you think? :(

First we have to go to Scripture for our answer to how we ought to conduct a worship service. One key verse is Eph 5:18-21. "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, 20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." One thing to notice is the "one another."

-First of all, you need to realize that our "worship services" look NOTHING today like they looked two thousand years ago. That's not to say that they are wrong, but you need to understand that the "worship service" exists for two main reasons: 1.) To edify the body and 2.) To give corporate worship to God (communion, corporate prayer, ect. To even attempt to compare a modern "worship service" with a first-century gathering of believers is downright laughable.

Here we see Paul writing to the church instructing believers to encourage other believers with music.

-I absolutely agree. I think that the verse IS about believers edifying other believers, but the ultimate PURPOSE that Paul was talking about was the sole act of edifying the body.

My question is this: Is my ability to edify my fellow believer infringed upon by having an usaved bass player and drummer in my worship band?

Should participating in the worship service be evangelistic?

-I'm not saying that it SHOULD. I'm just saying that it COULD.

No. The Biblical picture of an unbeliever being evangelized in the Bible is in 1 Cor. 14 "24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you."

-That's a really good picture of evangelism in the church. Funny thing is, that happened in the exact context that you are having a problem with in a worship band that I was a part of during a two-week trip to Canada. Our electric guitar player (who was absolutely SICK SICK SICK), an unsaved guy, got his socks blown off when Clint (the worship leader) and myself came to him on two separate occasions with a word of knowledge and prophecy. He got his life right and I still talk to him today. He's enrolling in bible school next fall.

Once again, I'm not trying to be a butt-hole, but that pretty much validates us having an unsaved guitar player in my mind.

The prophecy issue aside, what we see here is the church doing what the church does, unbelievers coming in, being convicted by the word of God, and falling on their face before God. In other words, the church is about the business of proclaiming God’s word and unbelievers will respond.

-I absolutely 100% agree with you! I wish there were more of this! I have to tell you, though, an unsaved worship band member is in an excellent position to be a part of this kind of thing.

Mike Darley

07-31-2007, 12:54 PM

ireLocus,

Believe it or not I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I just disagree with the applications. I, too, am quite tired of unthinking Christians as well. I can't tell you the number of times I've had an unbeliever tell me that they are surprised to find Christian with answers, who actually thinks through a response, etc. This is not a point of boasting for me, rather an indictment against much of the church. I also agree that we must minister to the lost. We form relationships, answer questions, and so on. Christ did hang out with some of the lower parts of society. We should seek to imitate Him.

What I take issue with is the logical leap from ministering to non-believers, asking them to come to church, etc. to allowing them to minister in a church setting. No one is suggesting that a worship service should be an exclusive Christian club. I'm saying a non-believer cannot worship, therefore he cannot lead in worship. I've personally played with non-believers, either jamming or in a non-church setting, and have had no problem with it. In short befriend and attempt to minister to non-believers, do not allow them to participate in ministry.

[QUOTE=ireLocus;3202]If my unbelieving musician-friend were to ask to get involved in my worship team, and I said no and just read off 1 Cor 14 to him as my reasoning, he wouldn't be instanlty changed... he'd probably say, 'Whatever, jerk. I just wanted to see what it was like, see if you were for real...' He'd walk away upset and I'd have my work cut out for me in trying to heal that wound, and the many others already there, dealt to him by the modern church.QUOTE]

You can't honestly believe that what I meant by my post was that if a non-believer asked to play on my worship team I'd just read a verse to them. If you think that's the case then read it again...If you still think that, read it once more. Personally, I'd probably ask this person why they wanted to be on the team. Use that as an opportunity to tell them about Christ, the difference between belief and unbelief, etc. I'd invite them to the practice. We might even jam a little, but ultimately I wouldn't let the be a part of ministry in the church.

Also, I wouldn't let a non-believer's potential response dictate my answer. If an unbelieving friend got mad because I wouldn't let him be on worship team, he'd get over it. What if he asked to preach? If I said no, he might walk away and call me a jerk. Should I let him? I'd try to say it as nicely as possible, but the answer would still be no.

Furthermore I'm extremely weary of this whole assimilation style of evangelism. Basically, we hang out with a non-believer long enough, bring him into our Christian community, and sort of assume his salvation. What we come up with is an all inclusive Christian club full of people who are not trusting in Christ.

I guess that's enough for now.

blackfbiv

07-31-2007, 01:37 PM

We're fairly open as far as worship team members go. There is an assumption that anyone who wants to be involved in worship team activity is in fact a believer. We don't require membership or baptism or the like.

The only hard and fast rule is a 6 month attendance period before becoming involved in worship.(in ANY ministry actually)

This not only helps protects the church from hurt, but the new attender as well.

We get to see the person interacting with the body... anything 'flag-raising' often rears it's head in that time.

Doesn't 'lock' them into a relationship with the body before they've seen us warts and all...

That's the idea anyways.

Mike Darley

07-31-2007, 01:44 PM

"First of all, you need to realize that our "worship services" look NOTHING today like they looked two thousand years ago. That's not to say that they are wrong, but you need to understand that the "worship service" exists for two main reasons: 1.) To edify the body and 2.) To give corporate worship to God (communion, corporate prayer, ect. To even attempt to compare a modern "worship service" with a first-century gathering of believers is downright laughable."

I really don't get your point. Obviously, the worship service doesn't look culturally the same, but we should attempt to model what the church does after what Scripture says the church should do. I don't get how that's laughable. As far as your two points go I think they're spot on. Maybe I just don't get the joke.

As far as your friend coming to the Lord after having played on a worship band. God is gracious and will save people in all sorts of ways. The question is whether or not we should allow this as a rule; whether this is what God has prescribed in His word.

"Once again, I'm not trying to be a butt-hole, but that pretty much validates us having an unsaved guitar player in my mind."

We have to be careful not to allow this whole "ends justify the means" pragmatic approach to life to influence how we do church. We could probably get a lot of people through the door Sunday morning if we were do things not prescribed in Scripture (use your imagination), but that doesn't mean there should be no standards. Ultimately it's not about what "works" it's about what's honoring to God.

El Ben

07-31-2007, 02:14 PM

I really don't get your point. Obviously, the worship service doesn't look culturally the same, but we should attempt to model what the church does after what Scripture says the church should do. I don't get how that's laughable. As far as your two points go I think they're spot on. Maybe I just don't get the joke.

The point was that you can't just extract something meant to be an example of edification and say make it into a rigid structure for how a worship ministry MUST be set up. What I'm saying is that culturally, things were a lot different then and to assume that using the same methods first-century believers did is something that will work in every situation was what was laughable.

We have to be careful not to allow this whole "ends justify the means" pragmatic approach to life to influence how we do church. We could probably get a lot of people through the door Sunday morning if we were do things not prescribed in Scripture (use your imagination), but that doesn't mean there should be no standards. Ultimately it's not about what "works" it's about what's honoring to God.

Well, first of all, I'm not interested in getting people in church. I'm interested in creating avenues for evangelism and discipleship. My vision from day one has been: To facilitate connection of Creator to creation by any means necessary .

Maybe you see this as wrong, but I'll do anything...ANYTHING short of outright sin to see a person get connected to God...period.

I am utterly unapologetic for that.

Creative connections are what I live for, be it the edification of a believer or the evangelism of a non-believer. I don't need the bible to think for me. God gave me a brain and some creativity of my own, and the bible as an example of his creativity and love (ultimately, a foundation for our own creativity). I don't step outside of the parameters in the bible, but my creativity isn't necessitated by scripture and verse. Inspired, perhaps, but not necessitated.

Scripture is the foundation of the building, not the building itself. Jesus never said that houses built on the rock had to all look the same to accomplish their purpose...he just said that they had to be built on the rock.

I reccomend "The Creative Leader" by Ed Young on this subject. He articulates this whole thing MUCH better than I do, but I'm getting off-subject. I'm sorry, I get really riled up about the whole "anti-pragmatism" thing, because while it has some REALLY good points, it has the tendency to toss the baby out with the bathwater in that it nearly always dismisses creativity as a tool for ministry.

AD(J)

07-31-2007, 02:57 PM

Stevie,

I think I did misunderstand the application of that scripture. I probably read through that a little fast... sorry about that. And I'll be honest, I'm not always a good communicator when I'm writing something instead of just talking, because it's hard to gauge how I'm coming across, you know.

I agree that an unbeliever cannot and should not be given the mic to preach. Preaching requires more than just the desire to preach, it requires knowledge of scripture with a deeper understanding and application of those scriptures that only comes from spending time getting to know God.

But I think worship is a very different animal. We often operate under the assumption that worship = music, and by doing so end up compartmentalizing it down to that 20 minutes of music we do once a week.

Obviously worship is more than that. It's a lifestyle. Non believers spend their lives in worship, too, just not to God. Christians, unfortunately, sometimes fall into that category as well. I think of all the services obviosuly cut short to get home for 'the game' and I cringe... ;) But really, we all worship something, every day of our lives.

So, when a person shows interest in worship music, which is a large part of how we, as Christians, express our worship of God, it's mainly because that's most visible and tangible way they can grasp the concept. They think, 'Hey, I can do this. I play guitar a little.'

I think we agree that if an unbeliever were to ask to play with the band we would not let them get right up on the stage the next week. I would certainly invite them to play with us during rehearsals, though, and if I understand you right you were saying you would, too. I mean, we do more than rehearse on those nights. We pray, we talk about worship lifestyle and we grow as a team.

I think where we differ, then, is I might feel inclined to eventually allow someone to play with us during church, maybe before they've had that turning point. I agree that being saved is a decision a person has to make, but I also see that it's also a long process of learning and re-learning things. Getting involved in worship seems like a great way to surround a person in an environment where that could grow and be well fed on a more personal basis than the large group setting. As worship leaders, we are there to train up the worship team, to buld them up. I guess I have seen where that same atmosphere has worked for the.. dare I say it... 'seeker.' (I love and hate that term in equal parts)

When there are new seekers in a Christian community, some people would be well served to plug right in to a small group, some people would be better served just hanging out once a week with the youth pastor, building a one on one relationship with them. The discipleship process can take many forms. I would assert that being included, to varying degrees, with the worship team is a great thing for creative, musical-type people. It's engaging on a different level.

Maybe I'm wrong in that approach on a large scale, you know, maybe it would be difficult to assimilate that into a realistic, repeatable process, but it works for me and for a couple other WL's I know.

And I'm really not trying to just say the ends justify the means, because if all I wanted to do was get people through the door, I'd hang a sign that said 'Free Beer.' ;) But on some level, I think this approach can work if done right.

It takes more time as a WL, and more energy, but I was created not only to worship, but also to lead others to God. I want to make sure I use every opportunity to do that. I would hope that I'm not doing something that is unpleasing to God.

AD(J)

07-31-2007, 03:13 PM

Well, first of all, I'm not interested in getting people in church. I'm interested in creating avenues for evangelism and discipleship. My vision from day one has been: To facilitate connection of Creator to creation by any means necessary .

Maybe you see this as wrong, but I'll do anything...ANYTHING short of outright sin to see a person get connected to God...period.

I am utterly unapologetic for that.

Creative connections are what I live for, be it the edification of a believer or the evangelism of a non-believer. I don't need the bible to think for me. God gave me a brain and some creativity of my own, and the bible as an example of his creativity and love (ultimately, a foundation for our own creativity). I don't step outside of the parameters in the bible, but my creativity isn't necessitated by scripture and verse. Inspired, perhaps, but not necessitated.

Scripture is the foundation of the building, not the building itself. Jesus never said that houses built on the rock had to all look the same to accomplish their purpose...he just said that they had to be built on the rock.

I reccomend "The Creative Leader" by Ed Young on this subject. He articulates this whole thing MUCH better than I do, but I'm getting off-subject. I'm sorry, I get really riled up about the whole "anti-pragmatism" thing, because while it has some REALLY good points, it has the tendency to toss the baby out with the bathwater in that it nearly always dismisses creativity as a tool for ministry.

I admire the boldness of this approach. "I am utterly unapologetic for that fact."

I think I need to look into this book you mention.

BillyChia

08-01-2007, 03:59 AM

I just read through this thread trying to use the eyes of someone who wasn't a Christian.

From that vantage point I got the feeling, "You don't really care about me. You care about converting me."

Can an "unbeliever" play in the band simply because they are a friend and a talented musician? Does evangelism have to validate it? Like if they don't convert to Christianity within 37 days of joining the worship team to we kick them off?

Does this line of questioning come into play anywhere else in our evangelism efforts? Do we really care about people, like God does, or are we just trying to convert them?

Klampert

08-01-2007, 09:25 AM

I'm going to simple as possible:

billy wrote:
"From that vantage point I got the feeling, "You don't really care about me. You care about converting me." "

I think this is quite off. And here is why. Worship in the sense of music is a ministry. I don't believe anybody in a church ministry position should be a nonbeliever because while they may not be the head leader they are still a leader. It is impossible to lead where you aren't going.
The other thing is in my worship team I do worship during practice along with extended prayer. I could not expect a nonbeliever to be involved in that because they dont believe it.

To say that because they are not aloud to be in the band that we dont care doesnt make much sense to me...
what if a nonbeliever decideds that he can do a pastors job or feels that he can help run the youth ministry. should we let them run those ministries or co lead?

At a certain point its not about feelings about doing everything in excelence and honoring the King. bringing him our best offereing. I dont think it is our best offering having people involved who are not in line with that.

I am all for evangelism...the great commission is what we are here for. the question is where does it fall in corporate worship.

worship is sacrificing ourselves to Lift up the King...so he can Lift us up...and then we can be equipt. to go and heal a broken world.

I think we need to keep that order of things..

I dont think a nonbeliever can worship. Godly worship is not just paying tribute to something or calling something holier than us....it's not bowing before something just because...

By definition it is giving CHRIST the glory and honor that is due Him. Giving Him our "everything" because He is our LORD, and there is the key.

Our worship starts and ends at the cross. We worship because of what He has done and we worship to become more like Christ. A biproduct of that is outreach and fellowship because that is Christlike.

But a nonbeliever cannot start at the cross because they havent..They can acknowledge there is a God but they cannot claim His blood.
Where the worship team is leading the congregation is to the cross. it is to be more like Christ. a nonbeliever is not headed there so they cant help lead there.

I have been in situations where nonbelievers wanted to be involved and the pastor has let them...sometimes it went ok sometimes it didnt.

I am personally more interested in what God wants then what people want. I havent met anybody yet that I have told You need to be on board with our beliefs and be involoved in order to be on the team...and they have gotten offended. I think people understand that they need to be on the same page.

Lets also not ignore the spiritual realm which doesnt get addressed enough.
There is a wrong spirit on nonbelievers...not because they are bad or whatever but because they haven been washed in the blood. Even if we dont see it...it affects things in the spirit.

In conclusion...our worship...begins and ends at the cross. We need to bring a worthy offering and as leaders be good stewards of how we choose to do this.

AD(J)

08-01-2007, 10:32 AM

Last night, I was up for a while tossing these ideas around in my head. Now, I am a very logical person, and I know sometimes the things of God defy logic, but this just makes sense to me.

When the Israelites got impatient because Moses and God were taking so long with the Ten Commandments :) , they turned away from God and made a golden calf to worship.

In doing so, there was no getting to know the golden calf and understanding what it means to worship the golden calf, it was just a decision to turn their hearts away from God and toward this idol. It was a decision that affected the orientation of their heart.

That, of course, was also a sin, but it brings to the surface an aspect of worship I was trying to hint at before. Those people did, in fact, worship an idol where the day before they had been worshipping God. They simply decided to turn their heart away from God. That idol, of course, could do nothing for them, but it was something they decided to do.

If a person, not just a plain old non-believer, but a seeker (for lack of a better term) makes a decision then, in whatever capacity they understand, to worhsip God, why does it need to be so much more than a simple decision?

I mean, there is a school of thought (represented here in this thread) that would say only a person who is saved can actually worship God. But there is a huge group of people who that kind of stance ignores, the people who are trying to worship God in their heart but may not have all the rest of the picture figured out.

God requires that a person accept Jesus for their salvation, because no one comes to the father but by him, so don't think I am trying to skip that step; but does God ignore the person who is seeking him only because they haven't had that conversation yet? Just because they haven't said the right words?

In this situation, there may be no blanket answer of who we should allow to be involved, and to what degree, but if a person is truly seeking that deeper understanding I think that gets Gods attention. It may not be worship in spirit just yet, but if it's being done honestly, I feel like it is at least worship in truth.

Any thoughts?

Mike Darley

08-01-2007, 11:27 AM

I was going to try to break down every point that each person who responded to me made then respond to each, but that would just make for a ridiculously long post, and, to be honest, I don’t think any of it would get to the root of the issue. I think that the real issue comes down to two different philosophies of ministry. Rob said, “My vision from day one has been: To facilitate connection of Creator to creation by any means necessary .” This is not my philosophy of ministry. My philosophy of ministry is derived from the Westminster Confession which is that “The chief end of man is to glorify God, and enjoy Him forever.” (I’m not Presbyterian, by the way. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Seinfeld reference intended.) In other words, men’s salvation and sanctification is not my chief concern, rather to be pleasing to God. My concern for men’s salvation is derivative of my desire to please God. This is why I won’t attempt to evangelize “by any means necessary.” Rather my goal is to glorify God in both the ends and the means. My aim is to facilitate a connection between Creator and creation by those means that would most glorify God. (As a side note, I do love my fellow man. Please to hear me saying that I only care for men’s souls because Jesus says I have to. I’m simply saying that my love for man must be subject to my love for God.) This is also why I insist on going to the Bible for my understanding of how to do ministry. It is the only sure infallible way to know what is pleasing to God. Furthermore, I know my own fallibility. I’ve often gone to Scripture, and realized that one of my long held traditions, methodologies, etc. were wrong, and Scripture corrected them.

We could sit around all day arguing methodology, but ultimately if we’re not appealing to something more authoritative than ourselves there’s really no way to judge who’s correct. Furthermore I think that the “any means necessary” philosophy can be dangerous. We see a lot of this fleshed out in the ministry of Charles Finney. Though there were several people who made professions of faith under his ministry, he himself wondered, toward the end of his ministry, why so few of these people were living as a Christian. I would argue that they were not Christians, but were manipulated into making a false profession. I’m not saying that anyone on this forum is doing this, simply that one has to be careful when adopting such a philosophy, because some of his methods can be the logical outcome. I guess that’s enough about that for now.

Billy mentioned that an unbeliever might feel, "You don't really care about me. You care about converting me." I would explain to my friend that I care about converting him precisely because I care about him. I would tell him that, even though he may not agree, that from my perspective I want to lead him to the only One who can save his soul, and is there really anything more caring? Sure we can strum a few chords together, but ultimately I want to keep your soul from hell, and lead you to Christ. I’ve said this to friends of mine who were not believers and I’ve never had one who was offended. They seemed to recognize it as living consistently with my worldview. To be honest, I think they’d be more offended if I never really tried to convince them of the truth of the Gospel.

Also, as a side note, I want to make sure that no one is taking my tone as negative or aggressive. I know that sometimes things can come across wrong when written. They say something like 80% of communication is through tone and gestures, and we don’t have that to help us on a web forum. Something I meant tongue-in-cheek might be taken as rude. If I’ve offended I apologize. I may disagree with some of you, but I do appreciate the interaction and sharpening. Well, that’s enough mush

Mike Darley

08-01-2007, 11:40 AM

ireLocus,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that because a non-believer is worshiping something (and I agree with you on this first part), then we ought to let him on stage because as least it's worship. If that's your point, then I have to heartily disagree with you. Now, I'm not saying that a person has to know every aspect of what it means to be a Christian, but they must be worshiping the same God.

AD(J)

08-01-2007, 01:25 PM

Well, that's not quite what I'm saying.

I think when a pre-Christian (another fun new term) makes the effort, it is likely an indication of the orientation of their heart. Worship is a heart turned toward God, not a person singing a song. This is because worship is not music. It can be expressed through music, but music is not the point.

Maybe the Israelites sang songs to their golden calf, but that was not all they did. They worshipped by allowing their hearts to be turned away from God and acted out that worship through sacrifices and offerings, and probably songs, too. Their actions followed their hearts, and that is the key.

And really, ultimately, God knows if He is pleased or not with a song or an act of worship from a pre-Christian, a non-believer. But in my mind it is a decision a person makes.

I can admit I have had days where I lead worship, and the people worshipped, but I was not worshiping in my heart because of stress or fear or an ill-timed argument on the drive to church. I hate that, but it happens. It doesn't invalidate the entire worsip serive, it just means I failed to worship God. Those days, I should have chosen to worship anyway, but I didn't.

I really think worship is that decision to turn your heart toward God in whatever you're doing, and the most tangible way to do that is through music.

So, yes, I have allowed people who were not yet saved on my worship team. Not right away, and not without a good deal of interaction and discourse about both their motives and my purpose as a lead worshiper. But I've seen it work.

And I must reiterate that I am a follower of Christ, a true friend of God, because I was allowed to play with the youth group band when it was still known that I had mixed feelings about God. At the time my best friend was my guitar, that was my life. I knew there was more to God than I had previously experienced, and I wanted something real, but after 15 years of confusion and, well, pain and suffering, I still didn't have a clue what it meant to be a Christian. (I can share my testimony some other time.)

Here's a situation to consider: A church in my area (I won't say which one) hires out their entire worship band. They are not Christians, but I have been there, both before and after I knew this fact about the band, and the spirit of God was certainly present in their worship service. And hey, the band was great, too.

What do we think of this? A Christian worship leader with an admittedly hired, non-Christian band.

El Ben

08-01-2007, 01:44 PM

It's what I've said all along: Is the worship of a believer so fickle and delicate that an unsaved band member could disrupt it?

Now, I will back up slightly and say that I would at least require my band members to be at the very least, seekers. I could not and would not have someone openly hostile to the Christian faith on the platform EVER, and understand that when I say unsaved, I mean people who aren't committed Christians, because ultimately, I find that salvation comes with committment, not with confession alone. (That whole deal about confessing with your mouth and believing [which also implies action on that belief] in your heart=being saved.)

It's almost impossible to say in any kind of spiritual context that something "will never work," because almost always, those "nevers" become realities.

Also, just so everyone understands, I'm not saying go out and scour the bars for your next electric guitar player or the strip club for your next backup singer. That would be...well, that would just not be wise. I'm just saying that if the opportunity comes along for you to plug in someone who is unsaved so that they can get taste of what worship and loving God is all about, then go for it. Don't be like that hateful old bitty from my church that offended people away from the opportunity to really connect with a family of believers.

PassageNorth

08-01-2007, 02:38 PM

I am posting an article that I think will answer most, maybe all, of these questions. It's by a respected worship leader for Morning Star Ministries, Chuck Joyner's Church.

SO YOU WANT TO BE IN THE BAND

by Don Potter

It has been my experience that there are usually a few people in a worship band who really shouldn’t be there. Yet I’ve also found out it’s hard to tell people “No” when they believe God is calling them to sing or play an instrument. They may not have any musical ability, but they love to worship God — isn’t that good enough?
Besides the Scripture that exhorts us to play skillfully before the Lord (see Psalm 33:3), there is another reason to set limits on who can participate on the worship band: Some people are actually endangering themselves by insisting they belong on stage. Of course, filling the band with greatly talented people who have no heart for God is probably even more dangerous. But that is not my focus here.
Called or Appointed?
Those who assume a position in the worship band without really being called by God could be setting themselves up for a fierce attack from the enemy. I have seen many such musicians fall under that attack, and at times even lose their families. Playing in the worship band is not just a fun thing to do on Sundays. It is a serious assault on the devil himself. Unless you are appointed by God for that position of battle, you may not have the grace to survive.
Seek God earnestly before accepting an invitation to be a part of the worship team! Even if it is a leader who asks you, don’t be impulsive — seek God first. You may even be called to be a singer or musician used for worship, yet be way ahead of God’s timing.
I was a professional musician for twenty-five years before I began to play in a worship band, and I was still about five years ahead of God. I unintentionally hurt a lot of people. Everyone thought it would be great to have a professional musician in the band, and I thought I was going to be a big help, too. Nevertheless, within three years the band had fallen apart and most of the musicians hated me. My talent was often confused with anointing and my character was not able to handle the position my talent put me in.
Eventually I learned that talent and gifting are very different. Talent is a natural ability to do something well if you work at it. Gifting is supernatural. It requires all your talent to be placed in God’s hands, for the benefit of His kingdom and not your own self-promotion.
In many churches playing in the worship band is the only job that seems to have no spiritual requirements tied to it.
Check Your Motives
Before you take the job of musician or singer in a worship band, you need to examine the motives of your heart. Here are some questions to ask yourself or others who are trying to get in the band:
• Do you think it would be fun to be on stage?
• Are you just trying to “help out” and meet a need?
• Are you trying to recapture your youth, when you used to sing or play an instrument?
• Are you just learning to play, and hoping to get some experience or free lessons?
• Do you feel you could worship God better from the stage than from the congregation?
• Are you unconsciously trying to gain a good reputation or impress people by playing in the band?
• Is your motivation to draw attention to yourself or to the Lord?
Although there are many more questions to ask yourself before entering the public worship arena, there really is only one that counts: Are you in the worship band or choir as an act of obedience to God? Everyone is called to praise God and sing to His Holy name, but not everyone is called to be in the worship band.
Everyone is called to intercede and to battle with the powers of darkness, but not everyone is called to take a Davidic position and war on his or her instrument.
Some motives sound spiritual, but are not. It may seem noble to focus on the congregation and what will make them happy, but if you do so you are worshipping them and not God. The call of a worship musician or singer is to minister to God, not the people. If the presence of God is our focus, He will come and bless the congregation a lot more than anything you can do!
This may sound harsh, but we are coming into a time when it will be extremely hazardous to play around with worship. A church would be better off with just one called and equipped musician, than a band full of people with good intentions but no calling.
In many churches playing in the worship band is the only job that seems to have no spiritual requirements tied to it. If the spiritual life of the pastor is in question, he’s a goner. If the elders are not in right standing with God, they will be removed. Yet, if a person owns a guitar, it’s no problem getting a job playing in the worship band.
Worship or Entertainment?
The most difficult thing to determine about one’s own heart is, Am I really concerned about reaching my Savior with this praise, or am I just trying to entertain these needy people? Once the idea of entertaining gets loose in the church, people can sometimes feel there is no anointing just because they are not pleased with the quality of the music. They’ve had a hard week at work and need a little relief from the pressures of life, so they look forward to the idea of sitting back and being entertained on Sunday.
This leads to watching worship instead of participating. I don’t think it is wrong to enjoy watching someone worship God. But if you as a singer or musician feel you have to live up to your own reputation as a great worshiper, you’ve just crossed a dangerous line—from worship to entertainment.
The body of Christ is in need of real Holy Spirit experiences, so we can tell the difference between anointing and entertainment. Those experiences will come more often when someone is called, gifted and anointed to be a leader or player in the worship band.
Chosen by God
Either you are chosen by God to have a position on the worship team or you are not. Even if you are chosen, you may have family obligations or other responsibilities that signal it is not yet God’s time for you to start.
If you have a heart for the musicians but don’t sense a call to be one, maybe your role should be intercession. Perhaps your interest is meant to stimulate prayer for them rather than a position on the stage for you.
If you feel you are supposed to be in the band but someone else has your place, go to God and ask Him to bring discernment and wisdom. It has been my experience that God will make a way for you to be there if it is truly His will. Be careful not to pray against that person, even if you believe they are being insensitive to what God is wanting to do. Be sure of this: The Lord wants the right people in the right places more than you do.
What if the Lord makes it clear that He has chosen someone else instead of you? The Bible is filled with examples of people with examples of people faced with this very situation: God chose Abel’s offering instead of Cain’s Isaac instead of Ishmael, Jacob instead of Esau, and Joseph instead of his brothers. Nothing is a greater test of our character. Either we will rise up in jealousy and jeopardize our own calling, or we will rejoice with our brother or sister over God’s choice and blessing.
Jonathan is a good example of someone who had the right response to God’s choice of someone else. Although it would have been easy to feel threatened by the prophecy that David would be the next king instead of him, Jonathan instead committed himself to doing everything he could to make David successful. He rejoiced in telling his friend David, “You will be king over Israel and I will be next to you.” (I Samuel 23:17). Those who humble themselves under God’s almighty hand will be exalted in due time (see I Peter 5:6). He has a wonderful role for you to fill in His body, a role fashioned especially for you. As you seek Him, He will show you what it is.

Don Potter has been a worship leader in many of the MorningStar conferences. He was the lead singer and guitarist for the popular jazz artist Chuck Mangione, and has been a producer for the Judds and Wynonna. Don is also an outstanding songwriter who has songs on several of the MorningStar albums.

AD(J)

08-01-2007, 03:30 PM

I think there are some very good points in that article, and those questions he poses are good questions to a certain extent.

However, this article all but equates corportate, musical worship to spritual battle. Without that as a contingency, many of the other arguments in this article would have little or no weight.

I believe in spiritual battle, I believe it's a very real thing, but I do not believe that every time I sing a worship song to God I am fighting some other entity in the process.

Music can be a part of battle, like the fall of Jericho for instance, but I do not believe that means all praise or worship is battle. I also believe if we are doing spiritual battle, we can use worship in that setting, but corporate worship on Sunday morning (or evening) is more of a praise celebration than a digging-into-the-trenches fight. Some of it is simply praise to God, recognizing that he is worth our praise and thanks.

I also strongly disagree with this whole 'calling' business. I believe we gravely misinterpret and over-emphasize what it means to be called in the modern church.

I do know a couple who have been sure of God's calling into missions since childhood, and they are now missionaries. That's totally valid and God blesses their ministry.

I also know a person who is now a missionary, not because they got that strong calling or heard the audible voice of God, but because they chose to be willing to use the skills that God has already blessed them with for God. Their particular set of skills were very easily applied to missions work, so they followed that path in their schooling and developed those skills, and God has honored that as well.

If a person with musical talent decides to use that talent for God, God honors that.

Some people will be called to music ministry in a leader's position, but are we really expecting that God call a bass player, or a drummer. What if they only play every other week? Why not the sound guy then, does God have to call him? That's a very important part of the musical team, I'd say second to the worship leader.

In the church, if we really enforced this calling rule, if we really discluded all the people who have been simply willing to be involved in church but were not literally called to music ministry or children's ministry or whatever, our churches would fall apart at the seams.

I believe all are called to use their time, talent and treasure to further God's kingdom. When people decide to involve themselves in a ministry because of their willingness and/or abilities in that area, I wholeheartedly believe that that is valid and that God honours it.

AD(J)

08-01-2007, 03:48 PM

I mean, I would not be a worship leader, I wouldn't even be involved in worship, if my church required a big time spiritual calling the way this article describes. I'd just be a guy in the crowd who happens to play guitar.

BillyChia

08-01-2007, 04:16 PM

I'm going to simple as possible:

billy wrote:
"From that vantage point I got the feeling, "You don't really care about me. You care about converting me." "

I think this is quite off.

Joel,
I agree with your view point. Although, my words have come across in a different manner than I intended them. I see how my last post was bit confusing and scattered. Allow me to clarify a bit with more focus.

What I meant to say specifically was that if I didn't know Jesus I'd probably think those thoughts after reading what we have written on this forum thread. Not that I would think them becuase I couldn't play in the band.

This is despite the truth that the people on this forum are interested in non-believers simply as people. God loves people. We love people. It's as simple as that. At the same time it would be easy for an unbeliever to miss that and read prejudice into our words here.

After all we are a bunch of Christians posting on a Christian forum. It's probably not going to make sense to you if you aren't Christian.

Worship is the same way. It's a bunch of Christians worshiping the Christian God. (The One True God) Anyone in the world is welcome to hang out. It just might not make sense to you.

That's OK. It's not a bad thing.

There's probably other implications, questions, and areas of discussion I was trying to prompt, but this is the essence of it.

I havent met anybody yet that I have told You need to be on board with our beliefs and be involoved in order to be on the team...and they have gotten offended. I think people understand that they need to be on the same page.

This statement ties in very closely with my own personal views in this discussion. I promise to post my own answers to these questions soon.

PassageNorth

08-01-2007, 04:37 PM

Thanks for the response to the article. The reason why I posted it was to answer the 5 questions in the original post which I believe it does very clearly.

Lets take a different perspective other than your own for a second about worship being warfare! I often times feel the same way about praise and worship that you do. That it's a celebration! And it is...to us who are already saved. But what is it to those that aren't or those that are having a rough time of it recently? Certainly it can only be a battle or sacrifice of praise because they may have nothing (they think) to praise God about. It's sometimes hard to see that it is a celebration sometimes though when you look at the congregation during the songs and see who is hurting and who isn't.

About the whole calling thing, I think some are and then some are appointed. But I think the statement "The Lord wants the right people in the right place more than we do.", is an excellent statement. That can be nothing short of truth. I think a calling is something God reveals to a person, not a rule in a church. How would a governing body of a church evaluate whether a person is called or not? Kind of hard to do!

Does God want unsaved people praising His name? Absolutely!! But why are they doing it if they aren't saved? Because we let them play their instrument? There are requirements laid out in the Bible to how we approach God. Someone earlier nailed it when they said we are required to worship Him in spirit and in Truth. That is straight from the word of God. If you don't believe He is the Truth and the Life and you're playing on the praise and worship team then that is the ultimate hypocrisy. There is already too much of that going around!

Mike Darley

08-01-2007, 04:49 PM

I actually agree with ireLocus. I don't see any reason to believe you necessarily have to have a specific call from God to be a worship leader, and certainly not to play an instrument or sing. (Lest you get too excited, I still believe you have to be a believer. :D) I know I don't feel a specific call to worship ministry. In my situation I am in a church plant that didn't have anyone else to do it. I've been playing various instruments for about ten years, have a decent voice, and good leadership skills, so when I was asked, I said yes. God has blessed us quite a bit in the past 10 or so months. While I know that God is using me in this role, I don't believe it to be a permanent one. I've told the leadership that I would not mind stepping down if there was someone else capable and willing to do it. For the moment, it would seem that God wants me where I am.

AD(J)

08-01-2007, 04:55 PM

First off, I think we agree on the 'Right people in the right place..'' issue. That's cool.

As far as warfare, I can see that point as well, when a person is struggling to worship. That can even happen with the worship leader. I've struggled some mornings, so I can see how it's not as cut a dried as worship simply is or is not warfare. It can be, and it also may not be at times. It takes many forms.

And hey, I agree about the calling type thing. How would a church enforce that kind of 'calling' rule? But I also assert that many churches have tried to initiate that kind of rule, and I guess I thought that's what the author of the article was driving at.

This is a great discussion... I hate that it's internet based. There's the time delay thing, and often we imply tone of voice when reading what another person has written. I'm not the most eloquent writer, so I often come across differently than I intend when I am not able to use my facial expression or hand gestures and tone of voice to convey meaning. I'm a very animated speaker, and that gets totally lost when I write somethng down.

I have to start writing like this: Well *waves arms*, I think *points at himself* that we should, as Christians seeking to please Christ *points to JC up above* , that our actions *makes running motion* should speak for themselves *makes hand puppet motion*.

BillyChia

08-01-2007, 11:15 PM

I have to start writing like this: Well *waves arms*, I think *points at himself* that we should, as Christians seeking to please Christ *points to JC up above* , that our actions *makes running motion* should speak for themselves *makes hand puppet motion*.

*picks self up from ground to sit back in desk chair to type* hahahahahahahahaha

El Ben

08-02-2007, 10:27 AM

:D

ire...

Oh, ire.

You tickle me.

AD(J)

08-02-2007, 11:29 AM

*Shrugs and smiles*

WorshipCity

08-03-2007, 10:57 AM

Oh wow, I've gotten to page 3 here and there is so much great stuff going on through discussion in this thread. I'll toss in my .02 and then continue to catch up. I've discussed this with friends and staff before and we've never settled on a definitive answer just principles or guidelines to try and follow. Which is what I prefer :) I'm not a huge fan of rules! HA.

1) Who should we allow on stage Sunday morning?

We don't have a stage so this doesn't apply to us!

2) What are your standards for allowing someone on the team?

This is one of those gray areas for us. When I came on staff I brought with me my best friend who played drums who I have played with for roughly 7 years now. At first it was because there was a specific need and knowing this man's heart and talent and desire it fit. He and his wife joined our church so now he's officially part of the team.

For people not in that unique position we typically date :) I'll take the person out to coffee and first just hang out with them. Find out their heart, desire, and perception of what happens on Sunday morning. My overall riding decision is what direction their facing. We all are broken and wrestle with our own struggles but is this person genuinely facing Christ and moving in that direction? If so, we proceed.

3) Can an unbeliever lead a believer in worship?

It seems we all agree this is a stretch (at least up through page 3 of this thread.)

4) Can the "worship team" be an avenue for evangelism? If so how?

Certainly, absolutely, yes. We have a similar story of salvation through playing through the team as someone shared earlier. So, in short, yes; in long however, it's tough. It's something that I discussed with our team.

To me there is a difference in having me up front with a band full of unbelievers trying to engage our congregation and having a band with 5 believers and 1 who's on the fence. In that situation the predominant riding force is believers engaged through music. They are influencing the one isn't not the other way around. And to me that's important.

AND no matter their status as a believer or not, we've already had coffee, discussed what's happening and have an understanding. I think there's a difference in having a staunch atheist, cross burning, outgoing homosexual, sailor swearing, vegetarian up there versus someone who understands what music is to look like on Sunday morning, realizes that the goal isn't to show off and perform but is still trying to figure out how this Christianity thing works. And it's not like they're locked into an eternal commitment to playing on our team. After Sunday, I try to catch up with coffee again. WOW what conversations come out of that!

5) How do you incorporate evangelism into your worship ministry?

I think I just answered that one :)

Just an added thought here. One of the things that I constantly discuss with my team also is that worship is NOT music on Sunday mornings. Music on Sunday mornings is one avenue to worship God but WORSHIP doesn't end there. Unbelievers all 'worship' something. 'Worship' is simply glorifying and lifting up and giving significance, worth, and value to something. We as Christians know that the only thing...or One worth worshipping is God. But we still worship iPhones by letting that dominate our talks with co-workers throughout the week, movies by letting them dominate our finances and blogs, clothes, etc. So, I continue to ask my team what they're worshipping all week long. And to answer that they need to look at what they're pointing to in their discussions and actions. Do they have a quiet time? Are they reading? Are they in a Small Group? Are they in community with other believers? And if they're not...I throw them off the team! NO! I'm kidding. But are they in pursuit of that? Sunday morning is doing all of that with a large group of people and then an added step is sacrificing and using our gift of music for honoring God.

I'm sure I'll have some objections which I gladly am looking forward to. I think this topic is fantastic discussion!

...that ended up being more than I intended. Now I have to get back to page 3.

AD(J)

08-03-2007, 11:30 AM

AND no matter their status as a believer or not, we've already had coffee, discussed what's happening and have an understanding. I think there's a difference in having a staunch atheist, cross burning, outgoing homosexual, sailor swearing, vegetarian up there versus someone who understands what music is to look like on Sunday morning, realizes that the goal isn't to show off and perform but is still trying to figure out how this Christianity thing works. And it's not like they're locked into an eternal commitment to playing on our team. After Sunday, I try to catch up with coffee again. WOW what conversations come out of that!

Amen. Let's black ball those Vegetarians!

j/k ;)

Klampert

08-03-2007, 11:39 AM

ha ha ha...vegetarian...sweet...im all for banning them. lol

WorshipCity

08-03-2007, 11:48 AM

ha ha ha...vegetarian...sweet...im all for banning them. lol

:) Ya'll are hysterical!

BillyChia

08-12-2007, 09:11 PM

1. Who should we allow on stage Sunday morning?

This varies by context. The key to remember is that who we put on stage (even if you don't have one) sends the message: "These are the people who are capable of doing ministry." People upfront are role models whether you want the to be or not.

If you have only beautiful, talented, 20-something, "all put together" Christians on stage, don't be surprised when there are people in your community who don't fit that description and are hesitant to get involved. They may simply believe they are incapable of doing ministry because they are not pretty, talented, Christian, etc... enough.

Ask the question, "What type of people do we want involved in our other ministries?" The answer to this question should dictate who you put on stage or on screen. Think not only in terms of musicians, but also speakers, announcement givers, prayer leaders, etc... Think age and (sub)cultural diversity as well.

With that in mind, there is a difference between being the lead singer and running the media shout. The same dichotomy exists between being the lead teaching pastor and the guy who brown bags meals for the homeless. Varying degrees of spiritual maturity are required based on the task at hand.

2. What are your standards for allowing someone on the team?

In terms of believer vs. unbeliever. I say, "Christians only." Not only so, but their faith needs to be evidenced by spiritual fruit and signs of continued growth. This is a bit of a subjective thing. The more you can hone your expectations into simple, specific, written language the more your team will benefit.

Auditions and interviews to get on the team are excellent tools. Also do them repeatedly for team members at evaluation points.

So why Christians only?

It's the most loving thing to do for an unbeliever. In all of our efforts to be culturally relevant the church has sometimes emphasized the message that God is imminent (meaning He wants to be your friend) and minimized the the message that God is transcendent (meaning He is holy, all powerful, and wants to be your lord.)

I imagine telling a non-Christian friend, "You can't be on the worship team because you are not a Christian." This sends the message that God has standards and his standard is perfect holiness. The only access to this is through Jesus Christ you can't earn it yourself.

Would I never ever let an unbeliever on stage?

I'm not sure. You all have given me a lot to think about. It would certainly depend on the individual and go on a case by case basis. If I'm going to make a blanket rule it'd be "Christians only."

3. Can an unbeliever lead a believer in worship?

Yes, absolutely without a doubt. No, not a chance in hell.

I've heard of a non-Christian playing guitar on a worship team and people in the service were like, "That guitar solo was so anointed." Even though the person playing guitar was not a Christian. They were led into God's presence by an unbeliever.

I've heard of worship pastors who have lost their faith. They still led in the process. They were faking it. People still experienced God. They were led into God's presence by an unbeliever.

At the same time, there is an obvious spiritual component to worship.

I've personally noticed the difference in my leading when I've spent all week in the word prior as opposed to when I've neglected my relationship with God.

The spiritual maturity of the people on stage absolutely makes a difference to the people in the crowd. I don't know how it works. It's a mystery and there's no formula for it. That doesn't make it any less true. You cannot lead when you don't know where you are going.

4. Can the "worship team" be an avenue for evangelism? If so how?

Yeah, in all the ways we've discussed.

I'd definitely let unbelievers hang out for practice Monday night even if I wouldn't put them on stage Sunday morning.

5. How do you incorporate evangelism into your worship ministry?

As worship leaders we should still be playing music with non-Christians. I think it'd be awesome to have 2 bands. One exclusive worship band, and one band that was purposefully made up of both believers and unbelievers. You could play shows in the community. You could build all kinds of relationships and get out of your Christian bubble.

Perhaps playing in two bands it too time intensive. At a minimum playing shows outside of church with members from your praise team is great way to make new friends (especially if you play with non-Christian bands in non-Christian venues), contribute to the culture of your local community, and spread the message of Christ.

BillyChia

08-12-2007, 11:32 PM

End_User_X

08-13-2007, 02:09 AM

"I think it'd be awesome to have 2 bands. One exclusive worship band, and one band that was purposefully made up of both believers and unbelievers. You could play shows in the community. You could build all kinds of relationships and get out of your Christian bubble."

I like this idea. We need to have a church without walls, or outside the four walls of the church building. The first century church won the most people and had the most growth when they were on the street mixing it up with the unbelievers.

I also wanted to comment on what you said about when people said that the unbelieving guitarist was "so anointed". Keep in mind that many christians confuse talent with anointing. We can hear someone that is amazing and think it's the anointing, but it may be just the loads of talent the person has, which, however is from God too.

russhutto

08-13-2007, 04:01 PM

Our primary band is the "second band" you listed. Even though the majority of what we do is within our primary gathering, our focus in that gathering is bringing people to Christ, discipleship, and training and equipping leaders. For some this is hard to understand.

I say just look at the fruit. We're not creating a group of "feed me" worship junkies, but a growing group of "where can I serve" worshipers. Not perfect, but really striving to be relevant within our faith community and in the cultural community we're surrounded by.

This means being inclusive. Granted as leadership, we probably adhere to the "christians only" rule, but not as an absolute. There are many gifted people who are still working out their faith journey who God can and does use to speak into our lives. If He used a dang donkey to speak into someone's life he sure as sugar can use one of His children that is far from Him.

That being said, our efforts to include those in our community that haven't stepped across the line are generally reserved for those times when we need a sub, or when we are doing an event that is more of a "community" time as opposed to "ministry" time.

We actually go overboard in our search for diverse talent. Our church is one of the most colorful churches I've ever been a part of, and we try to paint that picture with our visual leaders as well. We typically have white, light brown, and dark brown on our stage, and our musicians range from 20s - 50s.

Because of the way our primary gathering is set up, the "first band" which would be primarily a worship band, does events outside our primary gathering at our smaller venue for a more intimate, worship gathering.

BillyChia

08-13-2007, 11:10 PM

If [God] used a dang donkey to speak into someone's life he sure as sugar can use one of His children that is far from Him.

Totally feel ya on this.

Making rules like, "Christians only." is important.

It's irresponsible to not make rules.

It's also irresponsible to cling to our rules so tightly that we never realize there are exceptions.

WorshipCity

08-13-2007, 11:59 PM

Oh man, I may get banned here but if you don't agree don't hate me I'm just trying to figure this thing out as well.

I keep thinking, it's only music. I mean 'worship' is giving our life in sacrifice and glorifying God through our existence. It's a lifestyle not a product of Sunday morning right? One of the ways that we can worship is on Sunday mornings. And one of those ways on Sunday mornings is through music. And those playing music on Sunday mornings can be seen as a leadership role by some who aren't on staff at a church I agree. But I'm just wondering if it's such a big deal? Is that heretical? I don't think I disagree with much said here just as long as we're applying the same rules and standards to all our volunteers that serve on Sunday mornings. Because honestly, in our church, I guarantee you that more people know who's serving in Sunday school watching the toddlers than who's on my worship team. That's my church climate though because we are a family centered church and that's our focus. A majority of our church serves and a majority of our church is broken even saved and working toward a closer walk with Christ but we still let the serve. It's that walk with me kind of mentality not fix yourself then come see us later.
NOT TO SAY there aren't rules! I'm just saying, I think that in our church we don't have that distance between people in the congregation not know what's going on in the minds and hearts of those serving. Does that make sense? I don't think people look at people on the worship team and go: "My, they're on the worship team so they're life must be in complete order and walking side by side to Jesus and they don't spit, chew or date girls that do!" And that's because most serve in another capacity and know one another and know that we're all doing this together.

I don't know if this is even making sense. We got on the rules thing again and that always makes my skin crawl. Someone pointed out earlier that they have this mandated rule like: No tobacco use of any kind! It's just interesting to me that we have these rules that are so particular to certain aspects of sin and not the other that it doesn't make sense to me to do that. It wouldn't work in my culture I suppose.

I understand we're in that leadership role up front but God's going to move when and how He wants to. I see our role as sacrificing our gifts to Him and trying to get out of the way as to not distract the congregation in missing that movement. If we can do that then we've had a successful morning. Now, personally I want to present tasteful and artful music that redeems the Christian music world and I want our words to assist the congregations heart in moving from focusing on ME to HIM. I can personally do that with a guitarist who's looking for God but hasn't join the team. I can't have 2 bands. I'm just not that good :) I want to though! That'd be fun.

worshiptrench

08-14-2007, 12:21 AM

Here is my understanding....

I have a responsibility both to the body and to the individual lost musician which plays out differently in different contexts based upon where the congregation is on its relational map. The example...

When I was in a church plant of 130, everyone knew everyone relationally. If "Eddie" the drummer wasn't a Christian, people knew Eddie and knew that we were reaching out to include him in the Kingdom of God (NO, he wasn't our project...don't jump me for that...we honestly wanted to do life with Eddie; everybody in the body knew Eddie and knew his story.

Flip to NorthWood's 2400 in attendance. The primary place of relational connection in NorthWood is in a Team (home small group). We are so large that in corporate worship no one in the seats knows Eddie's story. So "lost as a goose Fred" comes into the service, and sees non-Christian Eddie playing with us and assumes, "Oh he must be a leader." Then Fred sees Eddie at a topless bar and wonders, "Wow, that drummer guy is a leader at NW yet here he is in the topless bar same as me. I guess there isn't much to this Christianity and its transformative power." (true story btw)

So, I would contextualize when a lost person plays with us. If it wouldn't have a detrimental effect because of the relational map of the body (smaller church connected relationally primarily in corporate worship), Eddie is in. If it is a larger body (corporate worship setting is not primary connecting point relationally, rather small groups), I let the responsibility to the body as a whole supersede Eddie's opportunity to play. It is not a wishy washy ethic. In fact Paul dances the same dance to a degree in Corinthians within a couple of chapters of each other in regards to meat offered to idols.

russhutto

08-14-2007, 12:46 AM

I like that approach...makes sense.

WorshipCity

08-14-2007, 12:54 AM

Bingo! And that's the deal to me. No one rule would catch Eddie circumstance. That goes back to the process of having a discussion with someone before they come on the team. For me, it's where are they heading? Are they moving towards Christ or away? Eddie at a stripper bar initially sounds like he's moving away. That Eddie would probably not be playing with me either. However, I would dare say there are some Christian Eddie's at stripper bars that then defeats our "Christian's Only" rule :)

SaintLewis

08-14-2007, 09:13 AM

And for real life examples of worship ministry beyond the Sunday Morning band check this awesome post by Shannon Lewis:

Missing the mark?: how my spiritual gifts effect my calling as a worship leader (http://4whatitsworth.wordpress.com/2007/08/12/missing-the-mark-how-do-spiritual-gifts-affect-your-calling-as-a-worship-leader/)

Thanks for the link, Billy - thought it's slightly off-topic, it is relevant as it results in possibly using non-Christians in some aspect of the ministry of the church (though not a corporate worship environment), evangelism/outreach/service in particular (what we at our church call "Reach OUT").

When I was the booking agent/sound guy at the Bean'ry in Athens, GA - a community coffee-house ministry owned & operated by the Assemblies of God - I had a very regular practice of double booking non-Christian (and by that I don't mean non-CCM, but popular local bands who's members I knew personally and knew that they did not know Jesus as individuals) bands with 'Christian' bands (again, not CCM, but bands who's members were self-proclaimed Christians) - we asked that the Christians not preach from stage, and we requested that the non-believers not curse or perform any overtly sexual material. We had bands like Luxury (they played one of their very last shows there and TRASHED all of their equipment - it was AWESOME), Vigilantes of Love, Chris Mason, Reeve Hunter (one of Crowder's favorite songwriters now), Katy Bowser, Matthew Perryman Jones, Ashley Peacock, Rock-n-Roll Summer(we also hosted concerts by Jars of Clay, Burlap to Cashmere, Waterdeep, & Caedmon's Call, but at another site: the crowd wouldn't fit in our building) and would have them play with local acts like the Fountains, Of Montreal, Elf Power (they've been in Rolling Stone a few times - good tunage), Duraluxe, Timber, Curtis Eller, & the Drive by Truckers - what occurred was "community", and what happened within that community was the Christians who had a heart to see people changed by the Gospel (and who knew that's what we were about) came to build relationships and plant seeds among the lost. I personally only led one person to the Lord through a connection to that ministry (an Atheist, none-the-less), but I had more deep spiritual conversations than I can count.

I also know that Mars Hill in Seattle (Mark Driscoll's church) and Jay Bakker's church in Atlanta hosted almost exclusively secular rock concerts at their churches, which is how so many non-believers know about their church.

Just a thought...

El Ben

08-14-2007, 10:14 AM

Okay...wow.

Yeah, I'd say we're getting off-topic and in a direction I'm not sure this conversation needs to go. There's a marked difference in having an "unsaved" band member and having a full-fledged rock concert at your church.

If a group of you guys want to hash out the whole "rock concert at church" thing, do it in a different thread.

Oh, and btw, great blog, shannon.

fmckinnon

08-14-2007, 09:25 PM

.. Fred is just catching up on this thread ... has been away for a while .. and can only say ... WOW!

worshiptrench

08-16-2007, 01:18 PM

So is anyone opposed to the contextualized approach i offered back up the page a few comments? I expected to get crushed on that for being a relativist. No? Or are you all just too nice?

russhutto

08-16-2007, 02:03 PM

Personally, after thinking through this issue. I think context is the most important if not only issue that needs to come into play when talking about this issue.

Everything else is important, but will fall into place when context is defined.

That being said, I think the context was pretty much implied with the original 5 questions:

5 Questions:

1. Who should we allow on stage Sunday morning?

2. What are your standards for allowing someone on the team?

3. Can an unbeliever lead a believer in worship?

4. Can the "worship team" be an avenue for evangelism? If so how?

5. How do you incorporate evangelism into your worship ministry?

Although vague, what I read in those 5 questions is:

1) We're talking about ministry to the corporate body in a time of musical worship at our primary gatherings.
2) We're not talking about jam sessions, rock concerts, or other "outreach" oriented gatherings.
3) The vibe I get is that the overarching (or underlying) question is when it comes to MINISTERING to God and to people through a worship team, who can join in "leadership", what are the qualifications, and who decides them?

Personally, I tend to be more conservative in this issue WHERE I'M AT now. Regardless, of the "size" of our faith family, it's probably better in the big scheme of things to have people who are committed to becoming mature Christians (and mature ones, too, ha), and/or people who are moving in that direction (intentionally). For the MOST PART, that means that almost all of our team members are believers, but when necessary, due to vacations or career moves (we minister a lot to Moody Air Force Base families), we need to bring in a sub. Because we're also a University town, we can usually find someone to sit in with us (believer or not) until we work the situation out...hopefully that might even mean they begin to move towards Christ in their faith journey and even join us permanently.

I'm cool with the whole context deal, BUT I believe, using Eddie as an example, that unless you're really talking about an extremely SMALL faith family, the example you gave might be more of the exception than the rule.

Specifically, about a small group knowing what Eddie is struggling through etc...compared to a large group not really being on the inside. I think that even in churches of 100+ it's difficult to find a community where people are that accepting and understanding. Sad, but possibly true.

WorshipCity

08-16-2007, 05:56 PM

So is anyone opposed to the contextualized approach i offered back up the page a few comments? I expected to get crushed on that for being a relativist. No? Or are you all just too nice?

Yeah, that's why I don't contextualize "lost" versus "Christian" b/c as stated, to me what if Eddie was a Christian? I think we have such a tough job because to me there isn't a line in the sand that everyone sees or fits into 2 separate categories. It's hard! I think it's all the more important to have some sort of 'dating' time with anyone you bring up there. Many people use auditions, I use Starbucks. Finding out their musical ability is IMPORTANT! Finding our their pace and direction to Jesus is just as IMPORTANT and that comes from a conversation. Additionally, that comes from multiple conversations in your church. Letting them know what it's all about. Because like I said, it should be mostly the same standard that anyone serving in leadership anywhere in the church should have to follow. (Broken record) Because worship is not confined by being led by musicians on a stage at 10:45 on Sunday mornings. If everyone on staff or leadership role is having a conversation with everyone wanting to serve and lead about how the church comes to the conclusion to allowing someone to serve/lead then that ideology gets spread throughout hopefully no matter the size of your church.

BillyChia

08-16-2007, 09:34 PM

I expected to get crushed on that for being a relativist.

haha. I'm glad you reposted this Jordan (or Brent). I somehow missed your first post but really enjoyed the concepts you put forth.

So here's my crushing:

I believe in the idea of contextualizing but your application is flawed becuase it assumes a static environment.

Yes, if everyone knows Eddie then possibly everything could be kosher. That is, as long as there are no visitors and no one new ever joins the church.

Do you introduce everyone to Eddie and his story?

I can imagine the scenario:

A visitor pulls up to Small and Friendly Community Church. They are impressed by the reserved parking spaces for 1st timers and the friendly greeters who smile and hold the door open. As they enter the auditorium an usher makes eye contact with them and with a smile asks, "It it your first time here?"

"uh, yes" the visitor replies

"Well Welcome to SFCC. My name is John." After Shaking hands John begins to walk them to their seats.

"Here is a Bible if you'd like to follow along. Feel free to participate in any part of the service or just sit back and check out what's going on. Please take a moment to fill out the card here with your information so we can send you a thank you for joining us today. And know that our drummer Eddie isn't a Christian and likes to watch naked women dance. Enjoy the worship!"

what I read in those 5 questions is:

1) We're talking about ministry to the corporate body in a time of musical worship at our primary gatherings.
2) We're not talking about jam sessions, rock concerts, or other "outreach" oriented gatherings.
3) The vibe I get is that the overarching (or underlying) question is when it comes to MINISTERING to God and to people through a worship team, who can join in "leadership", what are the qualifications, and who decides them?

Russ,
Yes, I was absolutely making underlying assumptions in my first post. Thank you for fleshing some of these out for clarity sake.

it's all the more important to have some sort of 'dating' time with anyone you bring up there.

Conner,
Absolutely. Faith in Jesus is relational. Serving Him and experiencing that faith should be relational too. I'm all about "dating" time.

worshiptrench

08-17-2007, 11:00 AM

okay, billy, that little scenario was genius, i do have to admit. i am dying laughing (not at eddie's sin mind you, just the scenario). no, we didn't say that obviously...instead we made eddie wear a bright yellow nametag that said, "Hello, my name is Eddie, I am a lost pagan in need of a Savior." Made it much less awkward.

You are right, a first timer would not have gotten that. But we were so small that they would have caught our philosophy on the second visit. They would have gotten a little magazine that explained that we used service as a tool to engage the lost. I was more cautious in this approach than the other two staff guys and tended to not go that route but rarely. I actually screwed up and let the "lost" guy play with us at NorthWood (big church, not the smaller plant). He had the right answers and said he knew Christ. I didn't do my homework to see there was 0 evidence of transformation in his life. That was my bad and I paid for it. Lesson, I might make a mistake, but I don't ever make the same one twice.

BillyChia

08-17-2007, 09:08 PM

That was my bad and I paid for it. Lesson, I might make a mistake, but I don't ever make the same one twice.

I always hate making big mistakes and the memories can be painful. I'm glad that we can laugh a little at situations like this.

El Ben

08-21-2007, 03:44 PM

A visitor pulls up to Small and Friendly Community Church. They are impressed by the reserved parking spaces for 1st timers and the friendly greeters who smile and hold the door open. As they enter the auditorium an usher makes eye contact with them and with a smile asks, "It it your first time here?"

"uh, yes" the visitor replies

"Well Welcome to SFCC. My name is John." After Shaking hands John begins to walk them to their seats.

"Here is a Bible if you'd like to follow along. Feel free to participate in any part of the service or just sit back and check out what's going on. Please take a moment to fill out the card here with your information so we can send you a thank you for joining us today. And know that our drummer Eddie isn't a Christian and likes to watch naked women dance. Enjoy the worship

and

...instead we made eddie wear a bright yellow nametag that said, "Hello, my name is Eddie, I am a lost pagan in need of a Savior." Made it much less awkward

Oh Billy. Oh Jordan. You tickle me.

thetentguy

08-23-2007, 04:39 PM

Wow, what a great discussion here! After reading through every page I have to say that several have already expressed my views and even a couple of identical experiences so I won't bore anyone with them!

I'm a wiser man after reading this. Thanks!

Had to lol about the whole "Eddie" scenario!

:::===={o~}

worshiptrench

08-24-2007, 04:18 PM

Yes, Billy and I are working on a new traveling comedy road show ala The Flight of the Conchords designed for pastors and ministers. We'll let you know when all our material is written.

Billy, have your people call mine.

El Ben

08-24-2007, 06:27 PM

I hear that the giant, multi-billion dollar worship conglomerate Highest Praise Productions is producing the whole thing. Should be a star-studded affair.

fmckinnon

08-25-2007, 09:52 AM

Whoa .. did someone still my name?

BillyChia

08-25-2007, 11:11 PM

Jordan,
I've always got something creative brewing in my head. When I come up with something really great, I'll definitely have my people call yours. :)

garyhodges

08-27-2007, 12:33 AM

Okay, so it's getting late and I've had a long day, so I ended up skipping a good number of entries here. So sorry if someone already said this.

Regarding the whole warfare issue. We have to realize that spiritual warfare happens mostly without our knowledge or comprehension. Consider 2 Chronicles 20 where the "worship team" is sent out before the army as Judah heads to battle.

Note they are not singing, "We're going out to battle! We're gonna kick some butt!" Instead they are singing celebrative praise: "Give thanks to the LORD, for his steadfast love endures for ever."

As they do this, the enemy is routed as the mass army turns upon itself and all are killed. Now, obviously this is not a "spiritual" battle, but the results are from spiritual intervention because of the obedience of God's people.

In fact, (wish I could recall the source) I heard an account of a group of 20th century Christian worshipers on a mountainside in Asia who witnessed the collapse of a pagan idol on that same mountain as they worshiped. Anyone else hear that story?

Issue 2 - regarding "Can a non-believer worship God?"

TWISI - Worship is a spiritual response to a spiritual God. In order to engage in true worship (spirit and truth and all that), we must be first made alive spiritually -- which happens when? When we place our faith in Christ. Am I right?

Let me close by quoting my former pastor's wife, talking about those brought into ministry positions: "Easy to get 'em in. Hard to get 'em out." I think when we are looking to include anyone in our ministries, it would behoove us to be circumspect and look down the road a bit. What do we expect/hope to happen and should there be a time limit for the seeker/pre-Christian to come to faith?

Hmmm.

'Night.

fmckinnon

08-27-2007, 06:59 AM

Gary -

Thanks for jumping in and giving some nuggets of gold! Get some rest!

BillyChia

08-27-2007, 03:30 PM

Gray,
Yeah great for "jumping in late." (This can often spark new discussion and I highly recommend it on any thread)

I liked your comment about "easy on. hard off"

In response:

One concept that was toted several times was the idea of doing auditions and interviews, and conversations over coffee.

Doing these as an introduction point helps up the quality of your team and lessens hurt feelings for peole who don't make the team.

Also regular re-adutions and re-intervews helps give an excellent oppertunity to get people off the team who don't need to be there.

On my worship team we commit 2 months at a time. Everyone does. This gives a logical point for people so say, "I need to take some time off" and an easy point to come back on the team later.

garyhodges

08-28-2007, 12:50 AM

Yeah, when I was in the Worship Pastor position I always had an audition for anyone interested in being on the team, and part of that was simply sitting down and getting to know them. It really was vital.

2 month commitments are a good idea, or at least a reasonable short-term -- if you have the personnel to cover it. If you are stretched for "talent", however, I suggest getting them to sign a 10-year exclusive contract.

MarkSooy

08-29-2007, 05:33 PM

Hmmm...

I've got a mixed sense of things about this topic in general. I know of individuals that would never step into a church unless doing so to participate in the worship band. In fact, I know of at least one man who came to Christ as a result of the "small group" style of ministry that took place in the band.

My thoughts often revolve around an "umbrella" of leadership in these situations. In reality, though each member of the band is up front and some might suggest that they are "leading" by being up front, there is in actual practice only one "leader." Even in a worship "team" someone plays the role of the main leader. This leader provides the umbrella of leadership under which the others are serving.

The New Testament does not seem to indicate any clear guidelines on this issue. The members of the Praise Band/Worship Team are not Pastors or Elders or Deacons -- these being the offices which clearly have spiritual and character trait requirements.

It seems to me that the answer to the question would come as a result of a specific ministry's culture and purpose. I can see some churches embracing the Worship Department as an department of evangelizing those involved in the arts. If the church is not open to these people to allow them to use their gifts (appropriate to the church's mission), then how do we engage them within the church?

Obviously, there will be other churches which hold a tighter grip on the requirements of their worship personnel -- and simply see it as a ministry to the saints. This isn't necessarily a problem, just a different point of view.

Well, as for me, I have some guest musicians coming in to play under my leadership in a few weeks. One may be nominally Christian (if that's possble), and the other I don't believe is at all. What I do know, is that if not for this opportunity I would not have the chance to allow the broader body of Christ to show Christ's love to them -- in the many ways that I cannot do so myself.

WorshipCity

08-30-2007, 11:09 AM

oooo...I like these late additions!

I'll comment 1st on only 2 month commitments! WOW! I know that's one thing I need to do because right now my musicians are just 'signed up.' We have some players that rotate every other week (we have 2 bassists) and some who play 1x a month and such but there's no firm commitment. I've been thinking of a confirmed 6 month commitment and revisiting it 2x a year but I couldn't do 2 month commitments :)

Back to topic, however, because it is so non-committal in our band, it makes it easy to say to someone we need to 'date' more until you play more :)

Mike Darley

08-30-2007, 03:45 PM

The New Testament does not seem to indicate any clear guidelines on this issue. The members of the Praise Band/Worship Team are not Pastors or Elders or Deacons -- these being the offices which clearly have spiritual and character trait requirements.

The NT does say in church we should address "one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs," Eph. 5:19 (emphasis added). Admittedly there's not much in the NT about musical worship, but one thing that can be taken from this text is that the church is to address the church in worship.

As far as how we reach out to non-Christians, we need to reach out to people in our work place, friends, family, etc. Be a Christian in this world and you'll run across people to evangelize. Be a musician in the world and you'll run across musicians to evangelize. You can play with them. Show them songs you've written, explain the lyrics, and so on. When it comes to worship music we should seek to minister to one another.

Another thing we need to remember is that church does not equal evangelism. We need to engage those around us, not leave it up to the pastor on Sunday morning.

AD(J)

08-31-2007, 09:59 AM

The NT does say in church we should address "one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs," Eph. 5:19 (emphasis added). Admittedly there's not much in the NT about musical worship, but one thing that can be taken from this text is that the church is to address the church in worship.

Okay, I have to say that this verse really is being used out of context.

First, to imply that it says the church, ie, it's people, should address each other in worship cannot be taken quite literally without some odd results. This is purely logical rhetoric.

I mean, does this verse suggest we should say 'Holy is your name, Carl, in all the earth. Righteous are your ways, Bob, so merciful.' ? Of course not. So what does it mean?

I would agree that the church (the people of the church) should address each other in a worshipful way, meaning a way that is pleasing to God, but not literally in worship. That is two totally different things.

Second, that quote is only half of the verse, and we almost always get into trouble when we quote half of a verse. It goes on to say:

19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If we just read on to the second half of the verse, we see again that making music in your heart is directed to God, not man. The command to speak to one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs sounds like an odd command, indeed, but there is nothing musical implicit in that phrase. The words 'speak' and 'address', depending on which translation you are using, have nothing to do with singing. It's literally suggesting we greet each other in a Godly way, and that by doing so, we can have a worshipful attitude in our approach to others.

What this verse is driving at is that there is a worshipful way to live, to address one another, and to approach God. Look at the chapter that this verse is in. It starts off by saying:

1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

These are directions on how to live a Godly life, and that verse must be viewed in a larger context if we are to understand it fully. As a matter of fact, since the first verse of this chapter has a 'therefore', you have to always ask yourself, 'What is is there for?' (Clever, huh?)

A 'therefore' phrase means you have to go back and read what is before it, because a 'therefore' phrase is always summing up something that is being explained. This 5th chapter of Ephesians relates in a big-picture way to the previous chapter as well. That is the context of Ephesians 5:19, and we really have to pay attention to it.

These are basic instructions for living life as an act of worship, but it is always worship to God, for God, and about God.

Sorry if I seem like I'm ranting, I'm not trying to. I guess I have to admit there are some ... issues ... in my family where scripture out of context has become a huge issue.

AD(J)

08-31-2007, 10:16 AM

Hmmm....

Overall here, I see the general consensus still leading toward the dating idea.

I mean, let's be honest, we could add a dyed-in-the-wool born-again bible-thumping bass player who has all the right stuff from all outward appearances, but he may very well disrupt the flow of worship just as much as if we were to add someone to our group who is on shaky ground with spiritual things.

The 'dating' process could easily nip all those potential problems in the bud.

I'm all for dating...

Funny thing is, I just got back from a road trip to find out my pastor has added a few people to our roster. And we have certainly needed the help lately.

But as cool as that is, I'm wondering how I can approach the situation. I want to initiate this sort of dating rule, but how do I do that once I've already got some members that were grandfathered in, and others that I've just added right away in recent months... ?

Mike Darley

08-31-2007, 01:11 PM

ireLocus,

I think you completely missed the point of what I was saying. My only point was that the church is to address the church. Now, you mentioned I took the verse out of context. Well, the overall context of the passage is godly living in response to the God's saving grace. The immediate context is Paul setting a dichotomy between believers and unbelievers. He calls them "sons of disobedience" and tells us not to be partners with them, which further lends itself to the idea that believers should not partner with unbelievers in ministry. Now I know some people will object and say that allowing unbelievers to play is not technically "partnering", but at that point aren't we really just playing symantic? Anyway, I'm at work. Maybe I'll wait for some responses and give a fuller response when I get home.

AD(J)

08-31-2007, 02:45 PM

ireLocus,

I think you completely missed the point of what I was saying. My only point was that the church is to address the church. ...

The church is to address the church?

That doesn't make any sense as a statement. That's like saying a carrot is a carrot. Well sure it is, but why mention it.

And besides, I was responding to the way you applied the verse.

The NT does say in church we should address "one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs," Eph. 5:19 (emphasis added). Admittedly there's not much in the NT about musical worship, but one thing that can be taken from this text is that the church is to address the church in worship.

I was pointing out that the church does not, in fact, address the church in worship. That is a huge misconception. We address God and God alone in worship. I pointed out that we can be worshipful in our relating to others, but that is different.

ireLocus,

... Now, you mentioned I took the verse out of context. Well, the overall context of the passage is godly living in response to the God's saving grace.

That's pretty much what I said.

AD(J)

08-31-2007, 02:57 PM

ireLocus,
The immediate context is Paul setting a dichotomy between believers and unbelievers. He calls them "sons of disobedience" and tells us not to be partners with them, which further lends itself to the idea that believers should not partner with unbelievers in ministry. Now I know some people will object and say that allowing unbelievers to play is not technically "partnering", but at that point aren't we really just playing symantic? Anyway, I'm at work. Maybe I'll wait for some responses and give a fuller response when I get home.

If that was your overall point, you might have just said that.

And it's semantics. ;)

Mike Darley

08-31-2007, 10:30 PM

The church is to address the church?

That doesn't make any sense as a statement. That's like saying a carrot is a carrot. Well sure it is, but why mention it.

And besides, I was responding to the way you applied the verse.

You really can't be serious. Saying that individuals within the church should address other individuals in the church is nothing like saying a carrot is a carrot. One is a tautology. The other is suggesting that the body is to build up the body. I really don't get why this is all that difficult to understand. The overall context is saying that believers ought not partner with unbelievers. Again, pretty clear.

I was pointing out that the church does not, in fact, address the church in worship. That is a huge misconception. We address God and God alone in worship. I pointed out that we can be worshipful in our relating to others, but that is different.

Okay, so back that up. I've suggested that this passage gives us reason to believe that the church should address the church in worship. You've basically said, "No, it doesn't...You took things out of context." Okay, give some for reason anyone to believe it. You're saying that believers are to address God exclusively in corporate worship. Give some support for your assertion. I've appealed to Scripture. You say I'm mistaken. Give an alternative. Give Scripture. Be specific.

And it's semantics.

Come on, bud. Pointing out a misspelling? I guess next time I'll run a spell check....maybe not.

Mike Darley

08-31-2007, 10:55 PM

Also, I would like to say that looking back on the last couple of posts it seems like things might be getting a little heated. Know that anger and resentment towards one another is not my goal. The goal ought to be to sharpen one another. We should challenge each other's convictions in the hope that we'll all end up more in line with God's truth. Personally, I don't mind strongly disagreeing with my best of friends. One of my closest friends and I strongly disagree over certain theological issues, and I have to say that I believe that I'm a better Christian because of our conversations. That being said....game on. :D

AD(J)

09-01-2007, 01:31 AM

First off, there's nothing heated about this. It's a debate, and I believe my arguments stands to reason. That's all.

Either way, you've actually already presented the best argument against this verse, in context or not, having anything to do with musical worship and or in any way relating to a worship team.

This verse has nothing to do with music, and the passage doesn't either. You said that the first time you quoted Ephesians 5:19. And you're right, it doesn't. There may be some concepts we can apply to worship, but they don't apply directly the way you keep suggesting they do.

The fact is that worship is not ever directed towards anyone but God. Like I have stated a couple times, if we are worshipful in our actions, our actions can be directed at others, but that worship always goes to God. If not, we are in big trouble.

Do I really need a scripture to say that we should not offer worship to anyone but God?

I can think of a commandment that says let there be no other Gods before me (God). And when Moses came down from the mountain with that very commandment in hand, the people were worshipping a calf. That was wrong because their worship was directed at something other than God. That is so clear in scripture I am surprised I have to flesh it out. Worship is for God and to God and no one else. God is a jealous God (that's a scripture too) and he alone is worthy of our worship.

We even sing songs like 'You alone I long to worship, You alone are worthy of my praise.' It is for God alone. My life can be an act of worship in all I do, the way I address my church and the way I address the hippie that bags my groceries; but that act of worship is offered to God ... I make myself a living sacrifice to God. Not to my church or anyone else. To God and God alone.

So... saying that 'the church should address the church in worship' is totally wrong and I stand by that. It may be a shade of meaning as far as words are concerned, but the ramifications of that slight difference are huge. We address God in our worship. How we address others can be Godly, and therefore an act of worship, but I will never address the church 'in worship.'

I really have no other way of fleshing this out.

Mike Darley

09-01-2007, 08:58 AM

I'm not suggesting we worship the congregation, rather that one part of the church's worship of God is addressing one another in worship. If you don't like the text in Eph. 5 as evidence we'll go to the OT. Read through the Psalms. Who are they addressing? Often they are directly addressing God. Often they are addressing man. I'm not going to go through and give some exhaustive list, but Psalm 4 illustrates this really well. Verses 1, 6, 7, and 8 are addressing God, verses 2, 3, 4, and 5 are very clearly addressing man. Now, this is certainly not the only Psalm in which man addresses man. Just take a few minute to flip through a few, and hopefully you'll see my point.

As far as modern worship, just look at some of the song we sing today. "How great is our God? Sing with me. How great is our God?" Who is being addressed? Who is the subject being spoken of in the third person.

Anyway, we've strayed way off topic here. My point is that the example we see in Scripture is the church addressing the church in worship, fellowship, partnering, etc. The church addresses the unsaved in evangelism, which is ultimately the most loving and God honoring thing we can do for them. (Now don't take that to mean that our only encounters with non-believers ought to be laying out the plan of salvation.) I've not really seen any good reason to allow unbelievers on a worship team, that is to say nothing Biblical. When it comes down to the way we worship our opinions really don't matter. We ought to seek to be Biblical. If we cannot apply a passage that directly deals with a given subject, then we should at least attempt to apply Biblical principles.

AD(J)

09-01-2007, 11:15 AM

Dude, you are saying exactly what I've been saying all along.

A song where someone says 'Sing with me' is a perfect example of what I've been saying. That worship goes to God, even if we are being worshipful in our relating to others.

We are addressing people in a worshipful way, but our worship is always going to God.

I've used that very sentence, or some iteration of it, in nearly every response I've written. That is the difference between addressing others in worship and addressing others in a worshipful manner.

How can I make that more clear?

Now then, if we want to be Biblical, I will show you exactly why I believe it is Christ-like, in many ways, to partner in ministry with unbelievers.

Jesus did it.

He parternered with smelly, rough-necked, unbelieving fisherman and tax collectors and a lawyer (shudder) and they eventually began to believe through their experiential time with Jesus during his ministry.

If Jesus was in a worship-band-type ministry instead of a healing and preaching ministry, this would apply directly. However, the fact that he used them in a preaching and healing ministry is actually more important, much more significant than music ministry. That's the preaching of the word. That's the healing of the sick. That's a way bigger thing that music anyway...

Regardlesss of the category we list Jesus' ministry under, the principle we see fleshed out here is that Jesus was partnered with disciples specifically because they were not the religious know-it-alls with all the great knowledge of the Torah and the many rules and dogmas that contemporary religious elite would have... He partnered with them because they needed Him, and through their experiences together those disciples became men of great faith and great ministry all in Jesus name.

Here's the big difference between my train of thought and yours. Jesus ministry was to both 'the people' and to his 'disciples.' He is my role model for ministry, so I will do whatever it takes to be like Jesus in that.

If Jesus did it, I think I can and should too, and with God's help, I believe I will see fruit. I am that fruit, and I have seen that fruit in other lives, too.