Worship for the crowd

[lightmanx5]

Does anyone have a "Crowd" level Sunday morning, Saturday night, or whenever? (Crowd level refers to the Saddleback model of the concentric circles to describe the target. On the very outside is the community, then crowd, then congregation, then committed, then core.) If so, how do you deal with that group of people who aren't worshipers? How do you encourage the Christians to worship in spite of the crowd being present?

[fmckinnon]

Hey -
This sounds like an awesome topic to post - but for those of us (like me) who are not familiar with that model you are discussing .. can you recap or summarize it? It sounds VERY INTERESTING - I'd like to know more about that concept.

Thanks
Fred

[BillyChia]

Fred,
Purpose Driven Church is a great book with a lot of good advice. In a nut shell is says the church has 5 purposes based on the great commission and the great commandment. Each purpose has a target audience.
You can read a more in depth (but still concise) definition of these things is an article called "What is Purpose Driven (http://www.purposedriven.com/en-US/AboutUs/WhatIsPD/Biblical+Foundations.htm)" at the purpose driven website.

The target audience of the "Worship" purpose is the "crowd." It makes sense. Essentially it says the target audience for Sunday morning worship is all the people who show up for Sunday morning worship.

What PD acknowledges is that not everyone who shows up to a worship service is full out dedicated to God ready to worship him. You have unbelievers and people at all various points in their faith in the "crowd." Rick Warren also makes a big point to say that although non-believers can't worship God they can observe believers worshiping and in that way they can get to know God.

So I think it's a great question:

How do you encourage believers to worship while still making to OK for non-believer to simply observe and get to know God?

I did this at my wedding through the means of a short introductory speech. You can watch the video (http://billychia.com/2007/07/27/wedding-as-worship-part-1/) of me doing this at my blog.

[lightmanx5]

Billy, You did a better job of explaining it than I could of! Thanks!


How do you encourage believers to worship while still making to OK for non-believer to simply observe and get to know God?

I did this at my wedding through the means of a short introductory speech. You can watch the video of me doing this at my blog.
I plan on watching the video, but I wanted to get these thoughts out first...

I guess my observation of our service would be this... and let me set up a little context. Several years ago, our senior pastor was asked to resign, and our church split. We spent a few years in transition looking for a new senior pastor. During that time we had probably 2-3 different high school pastors. (I doubt that there are any kids left who remember the split, but they might have been in K-5 or junior high back then, so who knows?) Where we are currently is that we have a bunch of high school students who come who are definitely Christian and fall in to the category of congregation. Maybe half of them would be considered committed, and less than that would be core. I think that the Congregation and Committed level kids are falling prey to something... but I can't exactly put my finger on what it is...

We're trying to make our Sunday morning service into an environment where non-Christians don't feel threatened or judged, and hope that it would be just a warm, friendly atmosphere all around. We have sodas and donuts and bagels available in our "Snack Shack" and we play upbeat, exciting music to open the morning.

It just seems like sometimes... maybe this is just me... but I feel like our Congregation and Committed level kids start acting like the crowd level kids. Like this service is FOR them, and they should BE served, instead of wanting to serve others. Instead of even wanting to participate in a musical time of worshiping God, they just want to talk to their friends, and text on their phones, or even listen to their iPods. Instead of wanting to participate in a learning time from God's Word, they want to skip out, go to the bathroom in pairs, or hide under the stairwell, or "walk the halls" (a weird thing to be cool, I know). Sometimes I think that they think something along the lines of, "Well, I'm not being entertained enough right now. I think I'll do xyz instead."

But then other times, I catch a glimpse of a good majority of them in what would seem to be an honest, open, unashamed worship of our God... through music, through listening to His Word... through hanging out with other believers. So I don't know what to do.

Anyway... thanks for listening to/reading my semi-rant.

[BillyChia]

Josh,
I'm all for making worship a place where non-believers are welcome to come and learn about God before they commit to him.

With that said, sometimes worship should be difficult, exclusionary and inaccessable for unbelievers. They are unbelievers. By default they can not worship God and by default they are excluded.

Things hold value for people when they have to work hard for them. If worship is imediantely accessible for everyone who walks in the door and they don't have to work at all to be invovled it tends to lose value for them.

My advice.

Make worship more inaccessible. Don't explain how to do it. Make it so people have to put forth at least some minimal sort of effort to figure it out before they can participate.

Maybe the "walk the halls" because they are not being challenged.

[lightmanx5]

What do I do when my leadership is telling me that it needs to be crowd level? The main example I'm usually given is, "I want my son to be able to bring in his non-Christian friend from the insert-sport-here team and that guy should be comfortable."

I feel like I'm lying to myself to think that I can give "crowd level" music to our believing kids and expect them to be able to worship God through that. I feel like I'm lying to myself to think that this "crowd level" thing is really all for God, and for His Kingdom and Glory.

[Klampert]

I think a comfortable environment is great, but the idea that a church should be a place where a nonbeliever might feel NOT feel odd is crazy.

they aren't Christians and we are not of this world...there is going to be somethings that they aren't going to enjoy, agree with, and maybe feel wierd about.

I think Jesus made people feel welcome and showed His love, but I dont think he set out to create environments where people werent going to be convicted or even in the dark as to why he did stuff.

Ultimately worship is this: Us responding to God (church is for Him), He responds to us (blessings, the table, relationships, and we respond to the great commission. (giving back what we have been given)

I think we have to be very very careful not to "dumb" down church. careful not to take Christ out just to make everybody feel good.

[AD(J)]

I guess I had no idea that an unbeliever couldn't worship God.

Seems to me that if, on some level, a person who doesn't necessarily 'walk with the Lord' decides to sing a worship song, they are worshiping him, at least to the best of their ability. Your average person doesn't just decide one day to lift their hands and worship God out of the blue, so obviously something has happened if a person decides to make that effort. I believe God recognizes that on some level.

To worship is to ascribe worth to something. To sing to God with an attitude of worship doesn't require that you completely understand what’s happening, I mean, I've been a lead worshiper for years and I can't say I totally grasp how awesome it is that I get to sing to God, and maybe I never will.



As far as crowd level worship, I dunno, it feels a little off to me. I've read a little about it here and there, but it's never quite clicked with me.

When we play through our set, either myself or the lead pastor will just say something along the lines of, 'Worship however you feel comfortable... stand, sit, kneel, sing, dance, clap, or even just watch." That's as crowd level as we get, I think.

I think the majority of this “crowd-level” church stuff should be happening outside of the church to begin with. If a Christian brings someone to church who they’ve known for years at work, and all of the sudden the friend from work is uncomfortable… then it’s not the church that needs to change, it’s the Christian.

How poorly are we living out our relationship with God, that it becomes a priority to water down church to make our unbelieving friends feel better? We should be living out loud enough that we surprise people outside of church, and make people uncomfortable … in a manner of speaking, outside the church walls. Then at least people would know what to expect if they did come with us to church.

[BillyChia]

I guess I had no idea that an unbeliever couldn't worship God.

Yeah. If you are not a Christian you are essentially incapable of pleasing God. You can feed the poor and heal the sick, but if you don't rely on the forgiveness that comes through the blood of Jesus Christ all of these good works are "filthy rags" in God's eyes.

I came to this theology through reading the Bible including the following verses.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Romans 8:6-8 (NASB)
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

1 Corinthians 12:3 (NIV)
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.




the lead pastor will just say something along the lines of, 'Worship however you feel comfortable... stand, sit, kneel, sing, dance, clap, or even just watch."


I personally said almost the same thing in my wedding worship video (http://billychia.com/2007/07/27/wedding-as-worship-part-1/). :)

[BillyChia]

Josh,


What do I do when my leadership is telling me that it needs to be crowd level?

My personal opinion is that in matters like this it is wise to trust the leadership. I may not agree with it, but I believe unity is powerful. I believer church staff disagreement should be private (ala mt. 18) and that publicly there should be an honest support of one another. I expect my pastor to support me publicly and have my back even when I screw up or he disagrees with me. I'd give him nothing less.

Go to your leadership and voice your concerns. Ask for their advice.

Also, from what I understand Saddleback does a "believer's only" type of worship service where they go deep. The "crowd" worship if for the crowd and believers are not expected to get fed there.

Maybe the answer is the addition another environment for believing teens to express worship to God if your church is following the Saddleback model.

[fmckinnon]

A thought ....

The Bible says that if we (Believers) didn't worship God, that the rocks and trees would cry out in our place ....
Does that make the rocks and trees "saved Believers"?

[AD(J)]

Wow, what a thought.

This may even have some application in that other thread, the 5 questions about the church band and unbelievers. Definitely something to think about.

[SaintLewis]

I think a comfortable environment is great, but the idea that a church should be a place where a nonbeliever might feel NOT feel odd is crazy.

My thought:
I don't mind offending non-believers, as long as we're offending them with the TRUTH, and not with 'form'.
The people Jesus offended the most often were not the totally uninitiated, but the religious, so personally those are the folks who's feathers I don't mind rustling.

[Klampert]

very true..

I think churches now adays are getting into "safe" worship

we are too worried about feelings, being the next big thing, and worried about what people think. While this has it's place I think it's time tings change

The fear of the Lord

we need to be more concerned if he likes our worship.

[El Ben]

I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, but I can remember a time when the success of a service wasn't measured by the level of comfort an unsaved person felt, but rather the level of conviction. I'm not exactly sure that this should come from our corporate worship times, but it's just a thought. I know it's important to have an atmosphere that is open where people CAN feel like they're accepted by their peers, but I'm not sure that an atmosphere of "comfort" is what we should be going for.

As far as I'm concerened (and what I can tell biblically), a gathering of believers is for the edification of those believers, not necessarilly the evangelism of the unsaved. Obviouslly, everything we do should have some measure of evangelism tagged to it, but if our goal is ultimately to advance the kingdom, evangelism should be happening in dramatically greater amounts OUTSIDE the church rather than INSIDE.

To quote Pastor Dan Harris: We come IN to worship. We go OUT to serve.

And Billy (and others), I'm not sure that unbelievers can't worship God. I know that they can't COMMUNE or have FELLOWSHIP with God, but God can still speak to them and I'm sure that if he would receive praise from a rock or a tree, that a human would be no problem. I think you're confusing worship or adoration with communion with the spirit.

[Klampert]

El Ben..

exactly...

It comes down to we are there for Him.

And honestly your not gonna like this, but I think creation (trees and rocks) are believers in christ per say...they have no soul, but they are there to glorify the King and if we dont worship they will...I dont think this can be used to say that nonbelievers can worship.

worship is where we lift up the King so in turn he can lift us up so we can reach others.

[El Ben]

Ack! You're right on several fronts. Sorry, (my) bad example and (your) good point.

[BillyChia]

I'm not sure that unbelievers can't worship God. I know that they can't COMMUNE or have FELLOWSHIP with God... I think you're confusing worship or adoration with communion with the spirit.

Ben,
It is possible that we are defining our terms differently. I tend to believe that communion, fellowship and worship are are interrelated and overlap with each other. I'm not sure that I draw a solid a line between them. Can you elaborate on the difference between adoration and communion with the spirit?

Scripture is littered with the concept that God does not accept sin because He is holy. The only reason God accepts me, or my worship, or my service, is because Jesus took away my unholiness and traded it for his holiness.

You see this concept in 2 Corinthians 5:21 (NIV)
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

The prophet Isaiah says,

"But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear." (59:2, NIV)

And a Blind man whom Jesus healed said,

"We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will." (John 9:31, NIV)

Is seems to me like this is the basic tenant of Christianity. I was a sinner in need of being saved. Jesus saved me. Why do I worship God? Because he saved me.

How can a person reject God's free gift of salvation and at the same time try to worship or praise Him? What are they praising? God's goodness? Don't they reject the most good thing He ever did?

Does anyone have any examples from Scripture of an "unbeliever" worshiping God and if so, did God actually accepting that worship?

[p.alhdcf]

I know I'm jumping in a little late but I just want to add that in Titus 1:15-16 it says "To the pure all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and thier conscience are defiled. They profess to know God but their deeds deny Him being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed."

And then later in Hebrews it says that without faith it is impossible to please God. Now I believe that there should be a place in the church where
non-believers ( I like to call them pre-believers) should feel welcome. The church was never meant to push them away but to make them desire what they saw and long to be a part of it. But then, like it was said before, you can't dumb down worship because then the believers aren't getting the depth that they need to continue growing in their faith.

So this is what we have done with our young adults service (I'm not saying that this is going to be the solution, this is what we're trying and it seems to be working) we encourage people to come before the service just to hang out. We have a cafe type setting where we serve snacks and drinks and everyone just has fun. Then our service is set up to be very initimate. The room has low lighting and there are altars set up for truly seperate worship. Now I'm sure that pre-believers find this uncomfortable, I would have when I wasn't a Christian, but they get to see the depth and reality of a person living out their love for a God who truly loves them in return.



Alicia

[BillyChia]

I know I'm jumping in a little late

You are always welcome to "jump in late." :)



Now I'm sure that pre-believers find this uncomfortable, I would have when I wasn't a Christian, but they get to see the depth and reality of a person living out their love for a God who truly loves them in return.

Sounds very cool. I like Don Miller's analogy of figuring out how to love something when you see someone else loving it. (ala Blue Like Jazz)

[El Ben]

Can you elaborate on the difference between adoration and communion with the spirit?

-Sure. Adoration (or worship) is simply a response of awe or wonder to the greatness of God. Communion with the spirit is an intimate connection enjoyed by the believer (1 Corinthians 6:17) and the Spirit of God, in which thoughts, feelings, and ideas are exchanged. Adoration is an action. Communion is a state of being.



Scripture is littered with the concept that God does not accept sin because He is holy. The only reason God accepts me, or my worship, or my service, is because Jesus took away my unholiness and traded it for his holiness.

-True, which is why I'm not saying that God ACCEPTS the worship of unbelievers. That's not to say that they don't have the capability.



Is seems to me like this is the basic tenant of Christianity. I was a sinner in need of being saved. Jesus saved me. Why do I worship God? Because he saved me.

-Sure, but there are other reasons to worship God. Godly fear (reverence) is a form of worship. The bible says that even the demons fear (reverence) God, so at least in some form, they worship. Being saved is not the only reason for worship. It's a good reason, for sure, but not the only reason.


How can a person reject God's free gift of salvation and at the same time try to worship or praise Him? What are they praising? God's goodness? Don't they reject the most good thing He ever did?

-How can a person continually reject and ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit in a certain area in their life and continue to live in sin (even though they're saved) while trying to worship and praise God at the same time? There is no good answer for either one of our questions except to say that a human being is one jacked up piece of work.


Does anyone have any examples from Scripture of an "unbeliever" worshiping God and if so, did God actually accepting that worship?

-As far as receiving worship, I'm not sure, but here is at least one example:

Daniel 3:28- Then Nebuchadnezzar said, "Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king's command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God.

[BillyChia]

Adoration (or worship) is simply a response of awe or wonder to the greatness of God. Communion with the spirit is an intimate connection enjoyed by the believer (1 Corinthians 6:17) and the Spirit of God, in which thoughts, feelings, and ideas are exchanged. Adoration is an action. Communion is a state of being.

Jesus said,
"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (Jn 4:23-24, NIV)

Worship and communion with the spirit are more interrelated than you are implying.



-As far as receiving worship, I'm not sure, but here is at least one example:

Daniel 3:28- Then Nebuchadnezzar said, "Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego

Great example! Nebuchadnezzar can say the words "Praise God" but is he truly worshiping?

Is there a difference between mere declarations or outward actions that appear to be worshipful and true worship?

In Isaiah's prophecy there is a difference. (see ch. 58 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2058:3%20-%208;&version=31;))

[PassageNorth]

I don't know anything about the purpose driven church "stuff"! It seems to me that the target audience would be God and not any one person or group of people. But not having read the book, I'm not quite sure. But 15 years of worship experience tells me this:1) your worship team needs to FULLY participate in worship. Things like singing, even if they don't have a mic. 2) Energy! Your praise team needs to have the energy on the platform that engages people genuinely. Phony worship comes across phony! I'm not saying jump around and over act. Just be genuine and sincere with God. 3) Use scriptures during the song service on the screen(if you have it) that talk about clapping your hands or dancing or singing or lifting your hands unto the Lord. You'll be surprised how many will do what your ask and you have them engaged in worshiping the Creator, which is where their attention needs to be.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

[russhutto]

PDC is not about making the "audience" any one person or group of people, as much as it is about making any one person or group of people the target of MINISTRY.

When all the hype (for and against) settles it's a decent model, and though not perfect, has many applicable concepts that we could all benefit from in one way or another.

IMO, the church shouldn't be a place (I use "place" lightly) where we worry about the "comfort" of any group, believer or non, but about loving them all...every last one of them.

Regardless of if a person feels comfortably cool in a hip environment, they won't participate, be converted, or become a disciple if they are not loved. I guarantee this: whether you are a megachurch, or home group, student ministry or senior citizen ministry, if you plant seeds of love, welcome, and acceptance (while promoting the truth of the Gospel) lives will be changed and people WILL be uncomfortable.

Uncomfortable? Yes.

I think it's weird that our pastor literally stands at the door and tackles people as they enter our gathering. Even to the point of missing the first song in our music sets, because he wants people to know that they are loved and welcomed here. In fact, it makes ME uncomfortable. In my little ol' religious thinking, at first, I thought he should be in the back room praying for the service, or down front worshiping so that all could see. Then God showed me that by putting people first (before religious routine) our pastor was actually offering a much sweeter sacrifice! Sweet!!

One of the biggest things people say when visiting HOJ, is that they immediately feel like they are family. Not many typical churches have that feel, and I pray to God, we never lose that.

Back to the topic...

I think creating another environment might be helpful too. Our primary gathering, is geared towards outsiders. Is it edifying and encouraging to believers? Yes. But we make it a point to point our "believers" to what we call joy groups, where the bulk of discipleship, edification, encouragement, and equipping happens. Our main gathering just happens to be one of the best examples of getting believers to get off their bottoms and truly act like believers that I've ever seen. Again, my prayer is that we never lose that. We don't try to package every spiritual discipline/teaching avenue into one "service"...

Try spreading it out a little. Maybe home group bible studies will fulfill that need of feeding the "committed" and the "big gathering" environment could be an avenue in which you really CHALLENGE your committed kids to LOVE and SERVE those who show up, believer or not.

[AD(J)]

... I think it's weird that our pastor literally stands at the door and tackles people as they enter our gathering. Even to the point of missing the first song in our music sets, because he wants people to know that they are loved and welcomed here. In fact, it makes ME uncomfortable. In my little ol' religious thinking, at first, I thought he should be in the back room praying for the service, or down front worshiping so that all could see. Then God showed me that by putting people first (before religious routine) our pastor was actually offering a much sweeter sacrifice! Sweet!!

One of the biggest things people say when visiting HOJ, is that they immediately feel like they are family. Not many typical churches have that feel, and I pray to God, we never lose that.

Back to the topic...


Actually, this strikes an admittedly off-topic chord with me. I'm tangent-oriented, what can I say?

Our pastor has been trying to get people interested in being 'people greeters' at our little coffee shop church.

I'm uncomfortable with that, to a point, too. And right now, he takes this responsibility on himself. But it apparently works, and I guess I never really thought about it as such an important thing.

Okay, I'm done.