Outreach Oriented Worship

[russhutto]

This is kind of a new frontier for me, as I have been part of a more "traditional" (if you will) charismatic church my whole life. Not that that was a bad thing, but I'm officially seeing the difference in a church who has a heart for reaching unchurched people, and a church who has a heart and a WORKING STRATEGY for reaching unchurched people.

Moving to a new church whose focus is on reaching unchurched people has been an amazing experience. Don't get me wrong, we have elements established in our faith community that promote spiritual growth; deep, systematic Bible study, worship as a lifestyle, and family-building fellowship. It's just that our efforts on Sunday exist solely to reach unchurched people. There are plenty of "churches" in our city for people who want a "churchy" experience.

What's exciting is that we are growing and maintaining growth through our strategies. And not only are people walking through the doors, they are also crossing the line of faith, and getting involved in serving others.

Okay, to get to the point. I was wondering who else participates in more outreach oriented worship, in which the focus is intentionally on providing an atmosphere where guests/unchurched people feel welcome/special/important and not bored, while trying to point them to and maintain an attitude/posture of worship.

Specificly, we hear a lot of "churchy" people say things like:

The music is too upbeat.
Why don't we worship longer?
I like that other style of music better than this...
I want to go deeper...
etc.

We have intentionally created our worship environment to reach a very specific demographic, which fortunately doesn't include those churchy people!! Ha.

We do, however, have a lot of MATURE Believers who have jumped on board, they see the purpose of the One Hour on Sunday and serve in a very humble, and Christ-like manner. In digging a little, we've found that the majority of those who complain, actually have no consistent worship LIFE of their own outside of their church experience, are not plugged into a small group family, don't consistently meditate/study Scripture, and are just generally looking for a "fix" once a week. They'll move on, experience the same perceived lack of "depth" in the new place and then move on again...

One thing I do miss, however, is a regular "extended" period of worship. We typically do 3 high-energy, upbeat songs. Occasionally we add a touchstone song, one that might be on popular radio and ties into the message. All to reach the unchurched people that are not "versed" in churchiosity or christianese.

We have periodic worship nights, specifially for those who long for those coporate worship experiences.

Your thoughts...
Russ

[El Ben]

I appreciate any ministry that is seeing people come to Jesus and lives changed, but I do think it bears mentioning that throughout scripture, the New Testament specifically, that whenever people had meetings, gatherings, services, or whatever you want to call them, these meetings were geared for the EDIFICATION of the CHURCH. Believe me when I say I am not down-playing the need for outreach or seeker-relevant ministry, but there's somethign about this that I'm not sure I like:


Specificly, we hear a lot of "churchy" people say things like:
The music is too upbeat.
Why don't we worship longer?
I like that other style of music better than this...
I want to go deeper...
etc.


1.) I can understand having upbeat music. Most of the songs we do at CRC are upbeat.

2.) I can DEFINITELY understand needing to make time cuts across the board so that our services don't run for two or three hours.

3.) Who hasn't battled this monster? Stylistically, it doesn't matter what you do, you'll have resistance.

4.) This is where I have my main big beef. What's wrong with going deeper? You mention as if it were almost a bad thing. If going deeper isn't your gig in your main service, I would HIGHLY recommend doing a seperate service where people CAN go deeper. My church, for instance, has a Sunday night service that has been absolutely incredible for the last couple of months. On Sunday nights, we go deep. We go deep in worship, deep in the word, and deep in prayer. You might want to expose your folks to a more-than-periodic opportunity to go deeper. You might be pleasantly surprised. I know I have been.

I know I've probably been "preaching to the choir" on this one, but I get worried that with all this talk about being relevant and being seeker-friendly, that we will lose the passion for the depths of God. Reaching lost people is great, but Christ told us to make DISCIPLES, not converts. I'm convinced we have way too many Christian converts and not enough disciples.

I also understand keeping things relevant for new believers and gearing your services for the unchurched, but let's be honest. You're from Valdosta, correct? I lived near Valdosta for most of my life. The average-Joe demographic from there grew up eating Cheerios under the pew of the local Baptist church. I would venture to guess (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the majority of people coming to your gatherings are not people who have never been in church (which is the true definition of "unchurched"), but people fed up with traditionalism and empty religion.

There's nothing wrong with being "churchy." Jesus didn't say he was going to build a group of "Christ-followers." He said he was going to build his church and that the gates of Hell wouldn't stand against it. As I told my friends Corey, LJ, and Emmitt last night at Loco's:

"Maybe if we were less concerned about people's physical comfort and more concerened about their spiritual state, then maybe we would see another Great Awakening."



Please understand, I'm not trying to be contrary or religious or whatever, I'm just concerened that we may dip into an arena of excess that will not be healthy to the Church as a whole.

[russhutto]

Ben,

Thanks for your well-thought out response.

One area in which I'll have to stand my ground on this one is in the "way" people want to go deeper.

Typically, most people who complain about things not being deep enough are not willing to do what it takes to go deeper. From what I've seen and experienced my whole life many people who throw around the word "deep" don't truly want to make the sacrifice to go deeper, they want it all packaged nicely in 2 hours on Sunday. This is specifically what I meant by those who talk about deeper. We always ask them these questions before they go along on their way to another church family.


Are you invloved in a small group of close friends who hold you accountable?
Do you have any consistent and systematic study of Scripture included in your daily life?
Are you serving others in an area of ministry within our church (and in the community)?
Are you willing to forego what you want, focus on what you need, and then commit to serving others?
Do you really want to go deeper, or do you just not "like" the 1 hour service format?
etc.


If they answer no to any of these questions, then usually that is the answer. You want to go "deeper" than work on those areas of your life.

In our church community, our discipling process (not a formula) takes place during the week in homes all over Valdosta. Our sunday gathering is specifically and strategically designed with "unchurched" and those as you pointed out are disillusioned/disenfranchised/disgusted/etc with what they've experienced in "church"...

You are correct when you say that Christ came to build His church, but as you know, Church is PEOPLE, not a gathering or a service. The only way to build the church then is to build people.

Back to the point, what we're seeing here in Valdosta because of VSU and the Military (Moody), many of the population that we're reaching are NOT Bible belt-ers. They're not you're typical South Georgia Baptist cheerio munchers! A lot in V-town are, but they're typically not the target of our outreach efforts.

Also, we are not a "seeker-friendly" church. Although our one hour on Sunday is very guest friendly, it's only 1 hour. What most people choose to ignore is the other 6 days of the week in which we plug people into discipling opportunities, spiritual growth opportunities, and generally those things in which the church is supposed to be doing 24/7 not just on sundays.

Our 1 hour on sundays are LOADED with scripture and spiritual exhortation/edification so I have no qualms there.

My question was specifically geared towards the actual music time of "worship"..if that makes sense...

Thanks again for your response, and I hope that I've painted a more acurate picture of our church family here.

Russ

[El Ben]

You sure did. It sounds like an exciting place and I'm glad that someone is forward-thinking and progressive. You made a statement earlier in your post that I'd really like to hit on. You said that in order to build a church, you need to build people, and I whole-heartedly agree with that. I think you really hit the nail on the head in that statement.

The ultimate point that I was trying to make is that I'm all for building people body and soul, but I sometimes get the impression that we (the Church as a whole, not yours or anyone else's in particular) are neglecting the spiritual aspects of growing people:

1.) If they are reading their Word, are they just reading it, or are they getting SOMETHING out of it?
2.) Do they have a consistent prayer life in which there is at least some dialogue? (Does the Holy Spirit speak to them?)
3.) Are they actively involved in good works? Since works validate faith, if they are not actively engaged in some sort of service, then I question the vitality of that person's spiritual life.

I just get worried that there isn't enough of these three big necessities in a lot of churches across the board (including mine), and I see those three things as the groundwork for any progressive, Spirit-empowered life. Once again, this is not an indictment of anyone's church or spirituality.

[russhutto]

The ultimate point that I was trying to make is that I'm all for building people body and soul, but I sometimes get the impression that we (the Church as a whole, not yours or anyone else's in particular) are neglecting the spiritual aspects of growing people:

1.) If they are reading their Word, are they just reading it, or are they getting SOMETHING out of it?
2.) Do they have a consistent prayer life in which there is at least some dialogue? (Does the Holy Spirit speak to them?)
3.) Are they actively involved in good works? Since works validate faith, if they are not actively engaged in some sort of service, then I question the vitality of that person's spiritual life.

I just get worried that there isn't enough of these three big necessities in a lot of churches across the board (including mine), and I see those three things as the groundwork for any progressive, Spirit-empowered life. Once again, this is not an indictment of anyone's church or spirituality.

Right on bro.

These are things we really encourage and even challenge our people with. In fact, in a recent talk I just gave I hit on how foundational scripture (and all it's truth) is to a growing Christian. It was on April Fool's day so naturally it was a great time to talk about "foolishness" and "wisdom" from a Biblical perspective. I opened up with a huge pic of Mr. T with the caption "Pity the Fool!" - then went on to encourage and challenge our folks to really DIG into scripture individually.

I think the biggest misconception about our particular church (not that you are saying it) is that people think that because our sunday service is very life application/outsider oriented that we lack the basic cornerstones of the faith. So untrue.

Anyways, I think that if we can really challenge and encourage our people to dig into those 3 things you mentioned from the "pulpit" and then reinforce those things in EVERY other aspect of our ministry, then we're headed in the right direction.

I think my biggest beef with the "church" at large is that we try to cram all the spiritual disciplines into a nice package in 2 hours on Sunday. Like I said, earlier like a weekly "fix" of sorts.

You're right on that the church is lacking in a lot of areas. Ours is. But we are honest, open, and growing. We know that tomorrow we might not look or act as we did yesterday, and that only one thing remains constant, the fact that people will always need to move towards God, whether they are far from him, walking with Him, or knocking on heaven's door. When we decide that we or anyone else in our circle has arrived, we're in trouble, or at least not being useful in the way God intends.

Thanks again for your kind and well-thought our responses. I'd love to hang out some time.

God's Best,
Russ

[fmckinnon]

Russ -
Great to hear of what's going on with your church. Which one in Valdosta is it?

Ya know, I'm over at St. Simons Community Church now ... so, I've experienced some of the same transition. This is a great thread - I'm glad it's "public" - because I am getting a TON from it, just by reading what you and Ben are writing!

[russhutto]

Hey Fred, thanks for the kind comments.

House of Joy (http://www.houseofjoy.info)

A little history:

The church is 3 1/2 years old. Started specifically to reach a segment of the Valdosta population that we call "unchurched" - this includes those who have never been to church, those who have left the church, and those who long to be INVOLVED in Church the way God intended it.

There are a ton of churches in Valdosta and we love that fact! We're just doing our part and reaching people that those churches aren't or can't.

I've seen more spiritual growth and discipleship in the 8 or so months that I've been here than most of my life in churches elsewhere. Not to slam them or anything, but I'm really excited to finally be a part of a group of people who really get it.

We really put a lot of thought, heart, and planning into EVERY thing we do. The church has doubled since last Easter, and our volunteer/service numbers are amazing. Plus, the amount of people who are actually plugging into our discipleship journey and small groups is well-above the mediocre numbers I've seen in my experience. Again not a slam on other churches, I've just been a part of "tired, complacent" church atmospheres for a long time and it's exciting to be a part of this great group of people and to actually see an effort to be church as seen in the New Testament, with a 21st century twist.

Here's a few things we do strategically to reach people. (All of them are covered in prayer from conception to application, so they're not just actions without spiritual direction):


We meet in a movie theater - we don't care about a building fund, building program, or a permanent location. Sure it would be nice to have a place to permanently call our own, but it also ties up a lot of resources that we'd rather use to reach people. Plus, the movie theater is a "culturally cool" hotspot. Not that you have to have that to be church, but it helps in bringing those through the doors who are "unchurched". Also, on the surface, it's a great place to really take advantage of technology - We really see a huge benefit in our kid's ministry, they have a Jesus centered, unforgettable, media heavy, Nickeodeon/Disney experience. One of the things I've learned over the years is that if children/teens are happy, learning, and growing, most if not all parents will also plug in.
We do very LIFE APPLICABLE life lesson series (3-5 weeks) - such as parenting, tough questions in life, time management, physical fitness, joy in tough times, etc. - all of these are loaded with biblical truths/scripture, and typically draw a lot of visitors.
We do "runner" life lesson series - these life lessons are more "fun" and typically are created specifically to engage the church in memorable ways. A lot of times we'll use a bit more media and music within the messages. In december we do a runner series called "December at the Movies" in which we base each lesson on a well-known Christmas movie. People enjoy it, invite their friends, and our attendance is higher. These are done specifically to get people through the doors.
We do spiritual growth life lesson series - IMMEDIATELY following a runner series, we'll do a spiritual growth series. These are always on foundational truths, disciplines, and areas in which every Christian needs. Examples: Prayer, Giving, Worship, Study of Scripture, Discipleship, Evangelism, etc. A good number of people that have stuck around after a runner series are exposed to foundational Biblical truths.
We place a HUGE emphasis on commitment/challenge every week. This means that there isn't a week that goes by in which we don't present the Gospel, challenge our new and maturing Christians to commit to growth and deeper relationship with God.
We have a specific, strategic discipleship process. It's called starting point, and though similar to the process in structure at Saddleback, our process is geared towards being a "starting point" towards lifelong growth & discipleship. Those who attend learn the basics of daily relationship and why we exist as a church. They're challenged to get involved, be a big part, and to BE the church with us.
We plug people in to small groups. This is what a lot of "churchy" people miss. They see our sunday gathering and base their opinions on the entirety of our ministry on one hour. Wrong. True, lifelong friendships are not built in one hour on Sunday, but in the small family-building times in our small groups. Each group is autonomous and chooses it's own studies. They meet during the week, and not only have a "home group", but also do many recreational activities, and family activities together. It's not perfect but it beats the standard "Sunday school"/Wednesday Bible study.
We challenge EVERYONE to volunteer/serve in the many areas of ministry that go on through the week. It takes a lot to make our gathering happen. Therefore we have a LOT of opportunities for people to volunteer. Kids ministry, music ministry, greeters, set-up, tear-down, care ministry, A/V, nursery, youth/youthcoaches, weekly visitation, phone calls, weekend venue (http://www.myspace.com/hotnoiserox), website (http://www.houseofjoy.info), and more! People are important and we always have a place for everyone that accepts our challenge to serve others through volunteering.


One thing that is really cool about our environment/group of people is that people are constantly saying that from the moment they walk in the doors they feel like they are the most important people there. We really strive to make that happen. It's the LEAST we can do!

Well, I know I've taken up way too much space with this post, just wanted to give you guys an idea of what's going on with us and where I'm coming from wen I post.

God's Best,
Russ

[bblankin]

House of Joy (http://www.houseofjoy.info)

Well, I know I've taken up way too much space with this post, just wanted to give you guys an idea of what's going on with us and where I'm coming from wen I post.

not at all! it's great to hear that more and more seeker-sensitive churches are figuring out how to overcome the main pitfall of the early seeker-oriented movement (failing to move from evangelism to discipleship).

so what's the answer to your question? how do you create a worship experience that reaches people who aren't comfortable with "church"?

[El Ben]

Dude, I will comment more later, but I LOVE your church model! LOVE IT! Also, I took the liberty of listening to your podcast. Very nice.

[fmckinnon]

Hey -
Speaking of PODCASTS ... I've kicked off the "Podcast Links" thread at:
http://www.theworshipcommunity.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26

[El Ben]

Well, bro, like I said earlier, I LOVE your church's model. I love how thought-through things are and how intentional and planned your ministry is. I'm extremely happy and excited for you about how things are going. In fact, there are a couple of logistical questions I have before I go any further in my post.

1.) You're the student pastor, right? What's the structure of your youth ministry look like? I'm a student pastor myself and I love to get new and fresh ideas.
How do you structure your services?
What does your student and adult leadership look like?
What do you teach? (Series, One-shotters, life-application, ect.)
What are some creative things that you've found that attract students?

2.) I'm assuming there's a lot of set-up and tear-down that goes into your service. Do you use the in-house sound system or bring your own?

3.) What does your worship band look like and what is your role in it?

4.) What's your plan for when you outgrow the theater? Are you guys looking at other facilities or will you just cross that bridge when you get there?

5.) What would you say is the one biggest draw of people to your church? Teaching, worship, small groups, ect.

6.) What would you say is your (church's) biggest obstacle when it comes to reaching people.

7.) What would you say is the biggest problem that you guys have to tackle to make things happen on a daily basis?

8.) How is your staff structured?

Sorry for the interrogation there, I love asking questions. If you don't feel like posting all of that stuff, feel free to email it to me at benjamin_harrell@yahoo.com

My last question is not so much a logistical question, and not even necessarilly directed at only you, and I'm not even sure how to go about asking it...well, here goes: How does the Holy Spirit move in your services? What does it look like? What does it feel like? I know that each ministry style cultivates a different atmosphere, what ends up happening in yours? I think it will be interesting to see all the different ways that God moves in our respective gatherings.

[russhutto]

Ben, thanks for the questions. I'm glad to share our positive, negative, and growing experiences, and hopefully, as we have, you'll glean a little here and there. We, by no means, claim to have a formulaic solution to any "problems" the church might face, and we strive day in and day out to learn and grow as servant leaders.


1.) You're the student pastor, right? What's the structure of your youth ministry look like? I'm a student pastor myself and I love to get new and fresh ideas.
Yes, I'm the "official" guinea pig/crash test dummy/er "pastor" for all things student related!


* How do you structure your services?
Great question. Since our church model really pushes small groups, our "main gatherings" are small groups. We are in an experimental season as far as a large "corporate" service goes. Aug -Jan we had what I would call a typical youth church service. This included elements of musical worship/teaching/activities/and lots of media. Sadly, it wasn't effective. We weren't seeing any real measurable growth in our students and they weren't inviting their friends.

(*note) Our adult gathering meets in a movie theater, but our offices and student facility is in a storefront across the street.

We decided to try something totally random and different. We transformed our student facility into a "cafe" type atmosphere. We bring in bands on Fridays and Saturdays (all genres). Our main "hotYouth" time is still Sunday nights, but it's more of an open "activity" time. We have video games/boardgames, TVU's Ten Most Wanted playing thru our bigscreen/flatscreens around the room, and we just generally "hang out" and build relationships with teens.


* What does your student and adult leadership look like?
We have a great staff of youth coaches that exist solely to mentor and build relationships with teens. THEY are what make our student ministry attractive, not necessarily the games/atmosphere, although they help. Like, I said we are experimenting with this model, so far it's been neat to see our teens respond to genuine relationships and show up at our small groups.


* What do you teach? (Series, One-shotters, life-application, ect.)
I'm a pretty LIFE APPLICATION oriented teacher. Although, I can really get into some more passage/Bible book oriented teaching as well. Generally, I base our teachings around student/teen isssues and then move discussions into Biblical truths. I also mix in a little exegetical teachings here and there. I haven't really gotten caught up too much in trying to structure messages based on "modernism vs. post-modernism" or this vs. that, but mostly I teach based on relationships with teens. We have a lot of group discussions.


* What are some creative things that you've found that attract students?

Again, experimental season: the venue has brought out a lot of unchurched kids. I think we've been experiencing our highest numbers at our "cafe" nights, but we're more interested in moving those kids into small groups, so as far as numbers go that's what we measure our success overall with.

Our "creative" events include: Super Bowl Parties, American Idol Nights, NCAA March Madness, Open Mic Nights, Concerts, Karaoke nights, Madden/Dance Dance Revolution (Video Game) Tourneys, Movie nights, "field day" type events (summer), cookouts, etc.


2.) I'm assuming there's a lot of set-up and tear-down that goes into your service. Do you use the in-house sound system or bring your own?
We are able to store most of our equipment and gear at the movie theater, they've been extremely awesome to work with! We "roll" in our sound system/lights. This actually seems like a burden, but in the end it is more of a blessing because it gives us an opportunity to plug in volunteers like you wouldn't believe. We have to "set up" and "tear down" through out the entire theater (we serve breakfast in the lobby, have 2 additional theater rooms for nursery and kids ministry) and all of those require hands to make happen! If there's ONE thing that can be said about House of Joy, is this: we've really got an awesome team of servant/volunteers that rotate week in and week out. We do a rotation so that people don't get burned out.


3.) What does your worship band look like and what is your role in it?
We utilize a full band approach. We typically have 2-3 guitars, bass, drums, keys, percussion and 2-4 vocalists up front. I have been drumming since August, but we just recently recruited 2 volunteers to fill that need. Now I play keys or acoustic guitar (whatever is needed that week). We also rotate musicians in and out.


4.) What's your plan for when you outgrow the theater? Are you guys looking at other facilities or will you just cross that bridge when you get there?
We had our highest attendance on record this past Easter Sunday (2 services). We typically have 1 service. First, step will be to move to mulitple services. Second will be to explore the possibility of Satellite services within the theater. Third, will be to find another location (semi-permanent). We don't have plans to build. We see ourselves in the theater for several years to come.


5.) What would you say is the one biggest draw of people to your church? Teaching, worship, small groups, ect.
First, I'd say friendship/relationships and the atmosphere is generally the first "draw"...after people visit, they're usually "hooked" by the teaching/worship/small groups. Most people are extremely blessed by our efforts to make EVERY person that comes through our doors the most important person.


6.) What would you say is your (church's) biggest obstacle when it comes to reaching people.
I think, and I use the word think lightly, that our biggest obstacle is perception. The way that Christians/the Church is perceived by people who have either never been, got hurt, or think they know everything really is an obstacle to overcome. Which is why I believe that the heavy emphasis on PEOPLE and relationships really impresses a lot of people and draws them back. Other than that, during this season we've not faced many huge obstacles. The last 12-18 months have been an exciting season of growth. That's not to say we won't experience any in the future, but just trying to paint a picture of where we are now.


7.) What would you say is the biggest problem that you guys have to tackle to make things happen on a daily basis?
Different people might answer differently, but for me it's communication. Because we have so many volunteers, and creative events/messages we really have to communicate with each other a lot. So the problem we have to deal with would be a lack of communication.

We've had a few snafus in the past with hurt feelings, assumptions, and petty things, that would have been nonexistent with clear communication. Because of those though, we've really determined to communicate, communicate, communicate!


8.) How is your staff structured?
We are a "staff led" structured church. We have a 5 member staff, that pretty much makes all the "big" decisions about vision, purpose, finances, etc. Also, each "department" head is pretty much free to make decisions within their ministry in regards to finances, events, etc.

We all have the overall "vision" of HOJ in mind when we make decisions, and surprisingly, my experience with this type of structure is a lot more pleasant than with the traditional committee rules structure. I think the main positive point about our structure is that our leaders lead. We are all involved in ministry, as opposed to a board of advisors who may or may not be involved directly with ministry.

As far as elders/deacons, no one is given the title, yet many fulfill the role. We have a bunch of deacons because of the nature of our ministry. Because we typically reach/draw nonchurched people we have fewer mature christians that serve as elders (again not titled).

I've seen many things get done for the Kingdom and resources used wisely and aggressively to make things happen! This never happened in my previous board-led staff experiences.


My last question is not so much a logistical question, and not even necessarilly directed at only you, and I'm not even sure how to go about asking it...well, here goes:

***CONTINUED IN NEXT POST***

[russhutto]

How does the Holy Spirit move in your services?
This is probably where many "charismaticostal" people get antsy with our model. Straight answer: the Holy Spirit moves in our gatherings (big & small) the same way He has for 2000 years. He moves on the hearts & minds of people. We have committment/challenge times in our ONE HOUR on Sunday. Keeping in mind that this gathering is not necessarily intended to be an anything goes, soaking, lingering, insider experience. Those are ALL necessary, but it's not what our ONE HOUR is about. We encourage people to seek that individually and within the frameworks of their small groups.

If you understand that our whole purpose for having an hour-long outsider focused gathering is to move people into times where they learn to seek the Holy Spirit through prayer, study, fellowship, evangelism, and worship, you see the bigger picture. Some people can't get past the fact that we don't "sing in the Spirit" or have "spontaneous, free worship" - we do, just not during that one hour. Catch me during on any other day of the week, and we'll worship til our eyes fall out. Haha.



What does it look like? What does it feel like?
Here again, we pray fervently each week that the Holy Spirit would move in the minds & hearts of our people. We pray that He would speak through the words spoken, the songs sung, and the media used. We plan creatively - this requires a lot of "pre-planned" services from start to finish. At each step of that process we believe the Holy Spirit is moving in and through us to make the final result captivating and engaging.

We see the results in the fruit of changed lives.


I know that each ministry style cultivates a different atmosphere, what ends up happening in yours?
We feel like God is pleased when people move forward across the bridge of faith into relationship with God. For us, that also means they accept the challenge to be discipled and to help disciple others. When this is happening, we really feel like we've heard and followed the leading, guiding, prompting of the Holy Spirit.

(***SOAP BOX***)
I'm weary, and wary of church gatherings in which a lot of "Holy Spirit" seeking is encouraged and promoted, but no fruit is evident of actually hearing and doing what the Spirit says. I think the Holy Spirit wants to speak so much more into our lives about us, our churches, and the world than we sometimes allow for. And the very fact that we "seek" Him but not follow Him is discouraging at the least. This is not aimed at anyone in particular, maybe it comes from my personal experiences more than anything...I don't know. I'm just laying it out there....be gentle.



I think it will be interesting to see all the different ways that God moves in our respective gatherings.
Definitely. My encouragement/challenge is that we would all serve in our areas of skill/ministry/talent/gift as Jesus did, laying all that we have out there, giving it everything we've got, and totally relying on God to come through. You're right, it looks so different from family to family, and that's the beauty of the Kingdom, God made us diverse in the ways in which we respond to Him and to others.

[El Ben]

Great answers, dude. I'm filing those away for future brainstorming sessions.

You know, there is something that I've been coming to terms with over the last couple of months. I pretty much am getting to the place where I'm recognizing that there isn't necessarilly a right or wrong way to "do" church. The truth is that we're all different and we all go for different things. It makes no more sense for me to get upset about someone not doing things the way I do than for a jazz musician to be angry at a rock musician for not playing the same way. It's all music, after all.

I'm getting to the place where all that matters is loving God and loving people. I really have been thinking about what I said about my concern that depth isn't being pursued across the board in the church at large. I think the reality is that a real, legitimate relationship with Jesus will draw you deeper period.

A brief confession: I say all the time how much I want people to have a deeper relationship with God, to really be engaged with the Holy Spirit, but I think more often than not, I'm more up in arms about people not doing it according to how I think it should be done, and this is based on what? What I've been taught? What I've heard someone else talk about. I think I forget sometimes that I'm only 22 and that I know jack squat.

I guess I'm caught somewhere between what I know to be true, what I've been taught, and what makes a whole lot of sense. I'll work it out soon...:p

[SaintLewis]

There's nothing wrong with being "churchy." Jesus didn't say he was going to build a group of "Christ-followers." He said he was going to build his church and that the gates of Hell wouldn't stand against it.

Just to note, however, that the Bible does not see 'the church' as a building, but, exactly what you said he wasn't going to build - 'the church' IS a group of 'Christ-followers'.

Personally, I am on both sides of this debate. When worship is understood in it's large (ie - BIBLICAL context), which means seeing 'music' as only a teeny-tiny aspect of the whole of worship, the Bible is pretty clear that certain things that MIGHT be done during worship (for instance, potentially uninterpreted tongues) should not be done for the sake of the 'unbelievers in your midst'. That is just to say, there is a Biblical precident for not doing certain things in the corporate gathering of Believers for the sake of the 'un-initiated', and that might be expanded upon in our modern day contextualizing of these Biblical principals: don't do anything in worship that is not directly commanded of God that might put a stumbling block between non-believers and Jesus.

That being said, I still see Ben's point, and would take it one step further - FIRST we need to keep God in mind (what would make Him happy, and glorify Him); secondly, the needs and desires of our congregation (what will enable them to 'follow' your lead) and thirdly, worshiping in a way that reveals God to the non-believer, or at least puts no hindrances between them and God. It's a tough balance.

[El Ben]

Very nice point. Well-said.

[fmckinnon]

Russ -
That sounds awesome .... it's good to hear it taking off! Sounds a lot like what we're doing over here at SSCC.

How would you describe the worship aspects of the service - is it held back, is it totally "free" - from a "charistmatic" point of view (ie. folks lifting hands, does anyone have opportunity to minister in "sign gifts", etc)?

[russhutto]

Hey guys thanks for the input. Very much appreciated!



FIRST we need to keep God in mind (what would make Him happy, and glorify Him); secondly, the needs and desires of our congregation (what will enable them to 'follow' your lead) and thirdly, worshiping in a way that reveals God to the non-believer, or at least puts no hindrances between them and God. It's a tough balance.
I agree with this point as well. I guess what I'd like to point out is that we are so FOR that. GOD first, discipleship second, and outreach third. I guess the thing that sets us apart from a "typical" church expression is that we intentionally and strategically fulfill the "outreach" part through our ONE HOUR on Sunday. Of course, we'd be foolish NOT to do what we did to the glory of God and in edification of our family members. What's missed more times than not by outsiders looking in is the fact that our "corporate gatherings" go on all through the week as well. We're not trying to cram it in to a 2 hour package. I will admit though, that I'd love for us to explore a more "musical worship" centered experience on a more regular basis. I think if you take our week and look at it as the whole, you'll see that there is more of a balance than most churches have in their 2 hour block.


How would you describe the worship aspects of the service - is it held back, is it totally "free" - from a "charismatic" point of view (ie. folks lifting hands, does anyone have opportunity to minister in "sign gifts", etc)?
I would describe our musical worship elements as high energy, upbeat, and engaging. We definitely push for more of an attention grabbing, fun experience over what we "charismatics" would call a "deep water" worship experience. At first, it took a while to get used to, because I was so used to having a 45 minute to an hour long worship time. But as I've seen more and more people engaged and moving into our discipleship opportunity and more and more people actually WALKING with Christ in deepening relationship, I've been a less critical. It's like I actually SEE people moving towards Christ day in and day out, as opposed to just on Sundays.

People typically clap, dance, lift their hands (keep in mind we meet in a movie theater)...Our focal vocals (haha) typically encourage our people to clap and lift their hands. We intentionally plan on 3 songs per set, occasionally we'll add a special transitional song that is themed with the message for the day. Most times we use a video of some sort.

We encourage the "gifts" in our small group settings. The reason is because people are more "family" oriented, the relationships are more intimate and people are generally more likely to connect and engage one another in that smaller "corporate" environment, than in our big theater environment.

I would say honestly, from a charismatic point of view, that our Music time is not geared to be "free" as much as it is to grab people's hearts and minds and move them towards a commitment. It's very intentional, but I guess I would describe it in "charismatic" terms as more of a "joyful, praise" as opposed to deeper "worship"...and I use those terms lightly, because when it's all said and done, when people are moved towards Christ, cross the line of faith, and move into discipleship and discipling, the end result is WORSHIP to God, the whole process (as long as it's built around people serving God and others) is kind of worship. Not that it takes the place of good corporate worship (music, singing, etc.)

We are planning a more "intimate worship" experience for May, and for me it's gonna be a really special time. I will say that if there is one thing I miss during our main gathering IS an extended time of music/worship. So it's really awesome when we have these nights of worship.

Our goal is to make it a pseudo regular part of our events schedule, while encouraging individuals and small groups to really pursue worship experiences outside of Sunday. Our main goal behind this is to really create an extremely SPECIAL time in worship, that doesn't become an idle, complacent routine for our people. One of the things I've seen over the years is that a normal worship experience (every week) CAN become so ritualistic and routine that it's not really worship any more. Now I know that's not our intentions, but it happens. I think we've just gone to the opposite side of the spectrum on this and are experimenting with a once a month/once a quarter worship experience that is a HIGHLIGHT time for those who are being discipled and learning and growing in their own pursuits of relationship with God.

I'm on both sides of the issue however, because I'm a "worshipper" in music...And I really love to join in with others in singing/playing/etc...

[bblankin]

That being said, I still see Ben's point, and would take it one step further - FIRST we need to keep God in mind (what would make Him happy, and glorify Him); secondly, the needs and desires of our congregation (what will enable them to 'follow' your lead) and thirdly, worshiping in a way that reveals God to the non-believer, or at least puts no hindrances between them and God. It's a tough balance.

i agree, and to expand a bit further, i've watched a few worship leaders grow through this progression: first we focus on following the leading of the Holy Spirit, and pay no attention to any other influence. but gradually, when we hear Jesus say, "feed my sheep," we understand that to mean, pay attention to the congregation. think about what songs they like. think about what keys they're comfortable with and how high they can reach. watch their faces while they worship.

i think it's important that most of us start by focusing on the moment-to-moment leading of the HS. we must never lose that touch. but as we grow, we shouldn't be surprised if we find ourselves paying attention to more "practical" details, and having long conversations about the congregation's tastes, attitudes and comfort level.

[bblankin]

A brief confession: I say all the time how much I want people to have a deeper relationship with God, to really be engaged with the Holy Spirit, but I think more often than not, I'm more up in arms about people not doing it according to how I think it should be done, and this is based on what? What I've been taught? What I've heard someone else talk about. I think I forget sometimes that I'm only 22 and that I know jack squat.

I guess I'm caught somewhere between what I know to be true, what I've been taught, and what makes a whole lot of sense. I'll work it out soon...:p

dude -- at 22, you're way ahead of the curve :) :) you've got the rest of your life to "work it out." there's a lot of wisdom in that "brief confession."

[chrismoncus]

Wow. I haven't had time to catch ALL the way up on the posts, but based on the first few replies I want to recommend a book that is my textbook on the Hour on Sunday, called, well, "An Hour on Sunday" by Nancy Beach (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html%3FASIN=0310252962%26tag=chrismoncusc o-20%26lcode=xm2%26cID=2025%26ccmID=165953%26locatio n=/o/ASIN/0310252962%253FSubscriptionId=0EMV44A9A5YT1RVDGZ82 ). Hands down it's the best book I've read regarding making the service the best it can be. From Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html%3FASIN=0310252962%26tag=chrismoncusc o-20%26lcode=xm2%26cID=2025%26ccmID=165953%26locatio n=/o/ASIN/0310252962%253FSubscriptionId=0EMV44A9A5YT1RVDGZ82 )...


Book Description
This book provides pastors, worship leaders, programming directors, and arts ministry leaders with the vision and core values necessary for building arts teams that can create the potential for transformational moments in church.

From the Back Cover
Today’s spiritually searching culture is less inclined than ever to attend church. Yet, no time of the week is filled with more life-changing potential than Sunday morning.

Imagine . . .
experiences that bring people heart-to-heart with God.messages in which God’s truth connects to everyday life.transcendent moments that leave people awestruck—and transformed.

That’s what can happen when you unleash the arts in your church through the power of the Holy Spirit.

An Hour on Sunday is not about nitty-gritty programming details or cookie-cutter how-to’s. It’s about foundational issues—ten enduring principles that:
unite artists and ministry leaders around a common language
empower artists and pastors to effectively work together
create the potential for moments that matter on Sunday morning.

An Hour on Sunday is for
worship and arts ministry leaders
pastors and teachers
artists—including musicians, writers, dancers, actors, visual artists, film makers, light and sound engineers
and anyone who believes in the limitless potential of the arts in their church.

Whimsically illustrated, written with passion and humor, and filled with stories of both success and failure, An Hour on Sunday explores the deep, shaping forces that can make your hour on Sunday a time of transformation and wonder for believers and seekers alike.

About the Author
Nancy Beach is director of programming and a teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois. Nancy's dual role as a teacher and an artist gives her a unique perspective on the challenges both pastors and artists face in crafting the hour on Sunday.

[SaintLewis]

i agree, and to expand a bit further, i've watched a few worship leaders grow through this progression: first we focus on following the leading of the Holy Spirit, and pay no attention to any other influence. but gradually, when we hear Jesus say, "feed my sheep," we understand that to mean, pay attention to the congregation. think about what songs they like. think about what keys they're comfortable with and how high they can reach. watch their faces while they worship.

i think it's important that most of us start by focusing on the moment-to-moment leading of the HS. we must never lose that touch. but as we grow, we shouldn't be surprised if we find ourselves paying attention to more "practical" details, and having long conversations about the congregation's tastes, attitudes and comfort level.

Hope this doesn't sound too critical of other worship leaders (God knows I've done it too), but when I hear an account like this it always makes me wonder whether such a worship leader was ever listening to the Holy Spirit in the first place, or instead being merely moved by their own subjective passions - I ask that because the Sovereign Spirit of God knows the hearts and minds of our congregation, and would - I suspect - lead us appropriately. Though it will sound negative to a great number of worship leaders, it's a practical fact of leading worship - or even performing a concert - that there is a large degree of worship leading that is essentially 'manipulation' (there must be a better word for it than that, but I can't think of it) - not in the negative sense, but merely the fact that we are engaging the worshipers on a deep level and attempting to move their emotions and actions towards a common goal: unity of the body of Christ, and the glory of God being recognized and adored by the congregation. I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit isn't involved - I believe He's involved in ways and on levels we may not even yet imagine, but we also need to recognize - for the sake of honing our craft - that there are many subjective practical elements going on that, though 'spiritual', can be effected by simple techniques of observing the results and altering our approach in the midsts of the flow of worship. I only say that because I'm currently in the midsts of learning it, and I'm trying to work my whole brain around the details of what they looks like, exactly.