Counsellor - TWC September Songwriting challenge

[MarkSnyder]

This song explores the doctrine of the Holy Spirit on the earth today. I suppose that could be considered a minefield, however, I really focused on aspects of the Spirit that are not debatable (I hope), such as explorations of the various translations of the Greek word 'Paraclete' used in John 14:16, which is commonly translated as 'Counsellor', 'Comforter', and 'Advocate'. Actually, these translations each convey truths about our relationship with the Holy Spirit that are supported elsewhere in scripture, so the song explores these various translations.

Original rough cut:

MarkSnyder - Counselor - SoundCloud (http://soundcloud.com/marksnyder/counselor)

NOTE, Please listen to the final mix here (its lyrics are finalized based on discussions below):

http://soundcloud.com/marksnyder/counselor-1


Other reference verses for the song include Romans 8:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 2:10-13

Counsellor, W/M Mark Snyder, 2010

Counsellor, Counsellor - beyond the thoughts of man
The Author of the earth and sky
Will keep us in His plan
The Holy Spirit wields His Word and guides His peoples’ hands
Lord of truth, Lord of light, Counsellor

Comforter, Comforter - in anguish and in loss
The One who felt the tears of our sins
Who bore them on the cross
The Holy Spirit’s precious gift - bought at the greatest cost
Lord of peace, Lord of hope, Comforter

Let His Spirit live within us now and He will guide our steps
When we reach the limits of our strength then He will do the rest
We wait upon – we wait on the Lord
With Father, Son, and Spirit in one accord

Advocate, Advocate - appeals before the throne
Condemned we stand in all of our sins
His sacrifice atones
The Holy Spirit brings our requests – the Father’s will is known
Lord of prayer, Lord of power, Advocate

Holy Fire, Holy Fire – in His disciples’ hearts
The ones who bear His name on the earth
A people set apart
This Holy Spirit shining through them will drive away the dark
Lord of faith, Lord of life, Holy Fire


Musically, the song borrows some melodic influences from another song I did (a score I did for Tom Kline's rap lyrics a while back called Hero). It also employs a very parallel structure, which I commonly use, sometimes to a fault. It would not surprise me if it borrowed other melodic elements as well - some of them seem familiar but I cannot put my finger on it if they are indeed from other songs. If you hear a resemblance let me know.

This song is a hymn structure, repeating a melody element in lines 1, and 2, varying to a higher line in 3, and returning in line 4 to the same territory as 1 and 2. I added a refrain to break it up, and a key change.

I am interested in feedback on the doctrinal correctness and presentation/feel of this song, because there are very few worship songs about the Holy Spirit, and so I am hoping to offer one that is useful here.

As always, any advice, suggestions, criticisms, whatever are welcome. The goal is to improve, so fire away!

[TheOldATrain]

Mark,

I greatly commend you for attempting to write songs that really get into the inner workings of the Trinity. Not many worship songswriters are even willing to try to go there.

I don't want you to be discouraged by the comments that follow or think that I'm trying to tear your song apart.
I only critique songs that I think are very good (or have the potential to be very good), and I'm all in favor of songs like this one that get into areas of theology and doctrine that haven't been done much.

But you did ask about doctrinal correctness; and at first read, there were a few lines that you might consider re-phrasing:
"The Author of the earth and sky"
The Holy Spirit's role in the creation is not entirely clear from Scripture.
In Genesis 1 the Spirit of God is described as "hovering above the waters," which could mean a variety of things; but was the Holy Spirit the "author" in the sense of the one who planned the creation, or was that more likely God the Father who spoke the creation through His Son (John 1) with the Holy Spirit also present?

"The One who felt the tears of our sins
Who bore them on the cross"
Is this referring to Jesus or the Holy Spirit? Jesus did identify the Holy Spirit as another Comforter (meaning that Jesus Himself was and is the supreme Comforter), but if this is intended to be a song primarily to/about the Holy Spirit then those lyrics are ambiguous at best and unbiblical at worst -- the Holy Spirit did not die on the cross for our sins; the Son did.
That also applies to the line
"The Holy Spirit’s precious gift - bought at the greatest cost"
as well as the line in the third verse: "His sacrifice atones"

"The ones who bear His name on the earth"
Whose name, Jesus' name or the Holy Spirit's name?
The Holy Spirit is never specifically given a name in the same way that the Father's covenant name is "I AM" and the Son's names are "Immanuel" and "Jesus", although the Holy Spirit is referred to by a variety of titles.

Also, and this is a secondary point, referring to the Holy Spirit as "Lord" might be a bit sketchy biblically. The Father and the Son are both referred to as "Lord" many times in Scripture, but I'm not aware of any titles of Lordship given to the Holy Spirit.
Also, according to Jesus' statement in John 16:12-14 the Holy Spirit's ministry primarily involves glorifying Jesus and bearing witness to what Jesus said rather than bringing glory to the Spirit Himself. So giving the Holy Spirit extra-biblical titles such as "Lord of life" and "Lord of prayer" is not necessarily wrong but might not exactly reflect what the Bible teaches about the nature of the Holy Spirit's work.

Like I said, please don't be discouraged or take offense.
I think this is an excellent idea for a song -- exploring the meanings and practical implications of the various titles of God the Holy Spirit.
I just think there are a few lines that need to be re-phrased.

Alex

[Wannabe a Worshiper]

Alex brought up some points to ponder about the scriptural part of the song, so my comment is about the music.
It seems that you are trying to squeeze too many words into some of the lines, so they have to be spit out really fast. Many of these lines would be as effective if a word or two were left out. This is mostly on the 4th line of the verses.

"The Holy Spirit's greatest gift- bought at the greatest cost" could be
"The Holy Spirit's greatest gift- bought at untold cost."

"The Holy Spirit brings our requests- the Father's will is known" could be
"The Holy Spirit hears our cries- the Father's will is known."

"This Holy Spirit shining through them will drive away the dark" could be
"This Holy Spirit shines through them to drive away the dark."

You have put a lot of thought into this song. I hope the feedback helps you to make it a better one.
Tom

[MarkSnyder]

@Alex,

I figured I was tiptoeing into a bit of a minefield, but I think I might get through it it reasonable shape! As a lay songwriter and worship leader my goal is to get expert opinion, so thanks for that. I will dig on the points you have raised and reply further with any changes.

@Tom,
I hear that a lot on these threads regarding too many words for the melody. Hopefully someday I can get past those bad habits. If the lines in question survive I will implement changes as you suggest.

Mark


Sent from my Milestone using Tapatalk

[InHisName]

The more I hear the songs and the critiques to the songs, the more I'm realizing I'm not yet at a point to really give specific feedback...but here goes...my first impressions:

I really like the melody. It's repetitive but that makes it catchy and easy to sing. It kind of reminds me of 90s worship/praise...with a folksy sound? I'm sure if you add instruments the sound can change, if you want it to.

I like the lyrics, too. Although I didn't delve too deeply into the theological side of them, ATrain had some great thoughts. I do always appreciate your word choices and rhyming scheme, and meter. It would make a great poem, too.

My thoughts in a nutshell! I like it.

[MarkSnyder]

I think this addresses everything.

Question for Alex or anyone else - do you see an ambiguity in verse 3, about the Advocate. Christ the son advocates for our salvation before the throne. The Holy Spirit both advocates for us to the world, telling us what to say when we witness, and also advocates to discern the Father's will based on our unspoken prayers (Romans 8). But I do not want to create the impression that the Spirit pleads Christ's blood before the throne - I think Christ himself does this? I think it is OK but would like input there.


Counsellor, Counsellor - beyond the thoughts of man
The One who holds the earth and sky
Will keep us in His plan
The Holy Spirit wields His Word and guides His peoples’ hands
May we hear, may we learn, Counsellor

Comforter, Comforter – in deepest, darkest place
Whom Jesus sent to be by our side
Until the end of days
The Holy Spirit carries us with endless strength and grace
May we lean, May we trust, Comforter

Let His Spirit live within us now and He will guide our steps
When we reach the limits of our strength then He will do the rest
We wait upon – we wait on the Lord
With Father, Son, and Spirit in one accord

Advocate, Advocate - appeals before the throne
He pleads the blood that covers our sins
We stand on this alone
The Holy Spirit hears our cries – the Father’s will is known
May we pray, May we rest, Advocate

Holy Fire, Holy Fire – in these disciples’ hearts
The ones who bear Christ’s name on the earth
A people set apart
This Holy Spirit shines through them to drive away the dark
May we go, may we shine, Holy Fire

[MarkSnyder]

The rhyme and meter schemes put you in a box lyrically sometimes, which can lead to cliches in the lyrics, etc. This is one of Brian's pet peeves I know! The challenge is to get the song to sound not cliched and to find meanings and phrasings that are focused and fit. This is really what revisions are all about - I might have a dozen revisions sometimes before I start getting a solid song. I sometimes find stuff to fit by using an online rhyming dictionary (RhymeZone rhyming dictionary and thesaurus (http://www.rhymezone.com)). They have a decent synonym finder (or reverse distionary) that also links to another called onelook that is pretty extensive. I don't do this at the start, but when I get to the end and I need that one word or shade of meaning and I can't think of it.

My songs sometimes sound like eighties rock melodies played in a seventies or even sixties style, I think. Some of this is the simple instrumentation (guitar and maybe a drum track if I get ambitious). But they stand along pretty well just played with a guitar (or guitar and bass), which is also the setting I am typically in leading worship anyways.


The more I hear the songs and the critiques to the songs, the more I'm realizing I'm not yet at a point to really give specific feedback...but here goes...my first impressions:

I really like the melody. It's repetitive but that makes it catchy and easy to sing. It kind of reminds me of 90s worship/praise...with a folksy sound? I'm sure if you add instruments the sound can change, if you want it to.

I like the lyrics, too. Although I didn't delve too deeply into the theological side of them, ATrain had some great thoughts. I do always appreciate your word choices and rhyming scheme, and meter. It would make a great poem, too.

My thoughts in a nutshell! I like it.

[TheOldATrain]

I think this addresses everything.

Question for Alex or anyone else - do you see an ambiguity in verse 3, about the Advocate. Christ the son advocates for our salvation before the throne. The Holy Spirit both advocates for us to the world, telling us what to say when we witness, and also advocates to discern the Father's will based on our unspoken prayers (Romans 8). But I do not want to create the impression that the Spirit pleads Christ's blood before the throne - I think Christ himself does this? I think it is OK but would like input there.

1 John 2:1: "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

Romans 8:26: "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

Based on these two verses, what you wrote in verse three seems to be talking more about Jesus than the Holy Spirit.
It might be better to work in something pertaining to Romans 8:26 and how the Holy Spirit helps us pray when we are in a period of spiritual weakness.

Alex

[danielled]

There's already been a lot of great advice and comments on your song that I think I'd have to agree with for the most part. I think it's commendable that you have taken on the challenge of writing a deep, theological song about the Holy Spirit, who often is ignored in worship songs and always controversial among denominations. It's much easier to write about the Father or the Son since most protestant church's largely agree on their roles.

What about just going for it and incorporating what doctrine you believe to be correct, even if it's controversial? For example, if you believe that the Spirit will be poured out on all people in the last days and they will prophecy, dream dreams, and see visions (Acts 2) why not write about it? Even though that's in the Bible there will definitely be those that disagree with your doctrine or your application of it, but you can't please all the people all the time. But maybe it will really minister to your congregation.

Good work and have fun sorting through all the theology!

[MarkSnyder]

1 John 2:1: "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

Romans 8:26: "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

Based on these two verses, what you wrote in verse three seems to be talking more about Jesus than the Holy Spirit.
It might be better to work in something pertaining to Romans 8:26 and how the Holy Spirit helps us pray when we are in a period of spiritual weakness.

Alex

Alex,

I wanted to get the earlier parts of Romans 8 into this message for verse 3, specifically Romans 8:1-2. This is why I wanted to work in the work of the cross into this verse, because there is a constant ministry of the Spirit to remind them and to show the world that He has set believers free from the condemnation of sin. Therefore, I can reword verse 3 as follows. Note, there are stylistic changes in the response line at the end of each verse as well:



Counsellor, Counsellor - beyond the thoughts of man
The One who holds the earth and sky
Will keep us in His plan
The Holy Spirit wields His Word and guides His peoples’ hands
May we learn, learn from Him, Counsellor

Comforter, Comforter – in deepest, darkest place
Whom Jesus sent to be by our side
Until the end of days
The Holy Spirit carries us with endless strength and grace
May we trust, trust in Him, Comforter

Let His Spirit live within us now and He will guide our steps
When we reach the limits of our strength then He will do the rest
We wait upon – we wait on the Lord
With Father, Son, and Spirit in one accord

Advocate, Advocate – His mercy ever shown
Convicts man's heart of the work of the cross
We stand on this alone
The Holy Spirit hears our cries – the Father’s will is known
May we rest, rest in Him, Advocate

Holy Fire, Holy Fire – in these disciples’ hearts
The ones who bear Christ’s name on the earth
A people set apart
This Holy Spirit shines through them to drive away the dark
May we shine, shine for Him, Holy Fire

[MarkSnyder]

There's already been a lot of great advice and comments on your song that I think I'd have to agree with for the most part. I think it's commendable that you have taken on the challenge of writing a deep, theological song about the Holy Spirit, who often is ignored in worship songs and always controversial among denominations. It's much easier to write about the Father or the Son since most protestant church's largely agree on their roles.

What about just going for it and incorporating what doctrine you believe to be correct, even if it's controversial? For example, if you believe that the Spirit will be poured out on all people in the last days and they will prophecy, dream dreams, and see visions (Acts 2) why not write about it? Even though that's in the Bible there will definitely be those that disagree with your doctrine or your application of it, but you can't please all the people all the time. But maybe it will really minister to your congregation.

Good work and have fun sorting through all the theology!

Our congregation is fairly mainstream fundamental theology. The purpose of this song is to remind believers (whom I hope will be singing it) of the readily available ministry of the Holy Spirit that was promised and has been sent by God. We can sing 'Holy Spirit, rain down' and such things, but what does it mean to our lives, and how can we appropriate it? How can we 'catch the rain' so to speak? Well, we can dig into His word (because the Spirit works through that), we can appropriate his peace and comfort in difficult circumstances, and we can, first and foremost, live cross centered lives in the freedom He has bought for us. Then, we can let it shine!

Mark

[Wannabe a Worshiper]

Mark, I really like your re-write. Now we need some musical collaboration to compliment the great message.
Tom

[MarkSnyder]

Mark, I really like your re-write. Now we need some musical collaboration to compliment the great message.
Tom

There is a Kompoz project here for this now:

Counsellor music collaboration project - Kompoz.com (http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.project?projectId=20073)

I added my guitar and vocal tracks there, with the sync tones. The vocal is the original, but the updated lyrics are there in an attachment. I can also post a score if anyone needs one. We could use anything on it (drums, bass, electric/acousatic, keyboard, better vocals).

[WorshipVanguard]

Hey! The tune is very catchy. There is one section that sounded really familiar, and I finally placed it. When you sing the 2nd phrase of each verse, it sounds like the theme song from Cheers. It sounds like, "You wanna be where you can see, our troubles are all the same." Thought you might get a kick out of that. :)

Lyrically, I like how you tackled such a difficult topic. Michael Card is well known for writing songs like this. His words are deep and intended to get people thinking about the words they hear/sing. Seems you are doing the same here. Well done!

[MarkSnyder]

Hey! The tune is very catchy. There is one section that sounded really familiar, and I finally placed it. When you sing the 2nd phrase of each verse, it sounds like the theme song from Cheers. It sounds like, "You wanna be where you can see, our troubles are all the same." Thought you might get a kick out of that. :)

Lyrically, I like how you tackled such a difficult topic. Michael Card is well known for writing songs like this. His words are deep and intended to get people thinking about the words they hear/sing. Seems you are doing the same here. Well done!

As I said in the initial post I thought I might be borrowing a melody element, and you caught it. Thanks. It is very close. I can modify the melody to avoid the overt similarity and still keep the catchiness I think. Maybe there is something about TV themes - first 'Gilligan's Island' and now 'Cheers'!

Wow, Michael Card! I think more of us should aspire to try and tackle more meaty topics though! I saw Michael Card once, at CedarVille University in Ohio, when I was in the Air Force there 17 years ago. The guy played about 6 or 7 different acoustic instruments as part of his concert, including a harp. He was very gifted and talented. I think that versatility helps artists, both in songwriting and in the quality of their recordings. I think Trent Smith plays a bunch of cool acoustic parts on his records too.

[WorshipVanguard]

Honestly, I don't think changing the melody should matter much. Our worship team often does "Not What My Hands" a lot, and I always sing "the best part of waking up" from the Folgers song whenever they do. :) Sometimes, I think it's a good thing when we can make those connections because it helps us remember the song better. I think, for copyright purposes, songwriters must ensure no more than a certain number of notes are the same as an already popular song. You may be safe with "Counselor" if you decide to copyright it. Just a thought.

[MarkSnyder]

No collaborators on Kompoz, but I did line up some virtual ones! These guys are good - they do exactly as instructed, every time!

MarkSnyder - Counsellor Mix - SoundCloud (http://soundcloud.com/marksnyder/counselor-1)

Feedback welcome on the style and the instrumentation I chose. Kind of an acoustic driven 80's style I would say. Not sure what to call it!

Mark

[Wannabe a Worshiper]

Mark, your final mix sounds good. You got the balance of words/rhythm worked out, as well as some lyric changes.
Personally, I think this would sound better in a little higher key. On the verses, you almost seem to be at the bottom of your range; a little higher would add some energy to it.

Of course, it isn't practical to change the key, unless there is a change key option on Kompoz.:o
Tom