Thinking biblically about Technology

[MarkSooy]

I'd like to have input on a broad framework for thinking biblically about the use of technology in worship (and the church). I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't, considering Luther's use of the Gutenberg press and other significant use of technologies. I'd simply like a fuller understanding.

What I'm after is a biblical/theological foundation that establishes the reason WHY we should be in the business of using technology -- in fact, REDEEMING technology for use by the Church.

In consulting several Worship media periodicals, I find very little discussion on this. As I've interviewed Seminary and College students majoring on the use of technology in the church, they've only looked blankly at me when I ask, "Can you give me your biblical and theological basis for the use of technology in the church -- beyond a use for pragmatic reasons?"

So, what do you think? Please go beyond the typical reasoning that we must "use every available means to reach people with the Gospel." Go deeper, support your points biblically and theologically. Not just proof-texting, but develop your thoughts into a philosophical statement. Explain the underlying philosophy of the "Worship Media" department of your church. Etc...

[Klampert]

hmm...this is a tough one and Im gonna have to think about this but my initial response is why go deeper.
I dont know if there needs to be a biblical reason why we use technology...I think that we should use every means and every gift we are given. On top of that I think that the church should not be behind in technology it needs to be in the forefront.
With that said I think biblically it comes down to Christ gives us gifts and tools and we should use them and get better at them and be committed to excellence in those areas...I dont think its very excellent to get trapped in the stone age of technology.

I know as a worship leader I want every tool possible to be able to do my job of worshiping the king ...better

[twc_admin]

Hey Mark!

Glad you're on the list/forum here ... 'cause I'm one of those guys who just doesn't think that way at all ... and I'm grateful for folks who DO think that way .. 'cause we all sharpen one another.

Initially, my response was almost identical to Joel's above - even before reading it. I thought to myself "sheez, we can become so caught up in trying to form a doctrinal thesis on why we do everything that we just are full of knowledge and scratch that intellectual itch that we really never get anything done, other than engage ourselves in thought-provoking philosophy.

Hope you're still reading - because I think that can be great. There is no where CLOSE to enough people asking those hard questions. Even if I hear a question like that and go "phew" ... I think it's valid.

I must say, though - why is "we must use every gift and resource available" ... considered a "shallow" response (I assume you think it's shallow because you tell us not to use that, and to go "deeper") ...

I think that response ultimately is about stewardship which is a plenty deep topic.

I can't quote a Scripture or doctrine about it - but I know that God would be pleased when we employ things He's given us to assist His people in worshiping Him more passionately. I think of how technology helps us in sound, video, light - how it helps captivate folks, etc ...

All that said - i think your challenge is an awesome one .. I'd love to see some great statements of how this can be done!

[MarkSooy]

I thought to myself "sheez, we can become so caught up in trying to form a doctrinal thesis on why we do everything that we just are full of knowledge and scratch that intellectual itch that we really never get anything done, other than engage ourselves in thought-provoking philosophy.



Hmmm. Yet, we can all quote examples of the church, and its leaders, blindly using gimmicks and the "latest and greatest" fads to both advertise their churches and "draw" people into larger and larger audiences (but not necessarily drawing them to Christ).

Think of it this way: Underlying our basic reasoning (by which I don't mean shallow, or unthinking), are threads connecting it to a broader-based philosophy. The fact that we use God's gifts for His glory is one aspect of this thinking. What are the other aspects? How does this idea connect to the concept of redemption? How does it relate to the Cultural Mandate of Genesis? These are the kinds of thoughts I'm after...

To loosely quote Francis Schaeffer, "Thinking always precedes action."

[Klampert]

great quote...francis is awesome
it seems to me you are having an issue with seeker churches that are all about getting people in and it being real showy... and less about coming to church to worship the king and discipleship.
I do as well...
But I think it isn't technology that is creating that environment issue it's the heart of the leadership and the sometimes skewed vision of a church.

[chrismoncus]

Paul sought to be all things to all people. We know that. We're heard it preached. We've preached it ourselves. But... can 1 Corinthians 9:22 apply not just to social status and ways of life, but also to churches' approaches to ministry?

To sum up Paul, he sought to remove anything that could be blocking his potential ministry to these groups. He may have changed dress, speech, or eating habits - all to "save some". He knew that people needed to be met where they were. At the Areopagus in Athens he used their culture to prove God. He didn't eat meat around some others. Etcetera, etcetera. Paul knew that people needed to hear the Gospel and he was on board with that cause.

Technology - whether video, graphics, or audio - helps us meet them where they are.

We are able to help others connect with God visually through creative arts, video, and graphics. Even lights help set the mood and free up their hearts. The ability to record audio and video let us do things weeks ahead of time and create a much better work than a live drama or something that can meet people where they are.

Lyrics projection allow us to engage together in singing songs to God without having to study or find a hymnal (hymnals at one time were techy for their time).

Audio support lets us first of all, distribute the message live in a way in which all present can hear and understand. Even the hard of hearing can get a wireless headphone setup to hear the sermon well. Then, we can rebroadcast this through podcasts, CD/DVD distribution, TV, radio, and streaming through the internet. That's millions of more potential recipients of the message. Today, the sound system takes the place of the people in Jesus' day who would stand in the crowd to hear what was said and then yell it back to the rest of the crowd.

Then there is the entire Christian CD and DVD market of music and Bible studies.

Next, one word. Internet.

Technology is one of our biggest assets today. We must do all we can to get the message of our God and Savior out. Tech does this so well in many cases.

I leave you with a quote from John Wesley, "The church has nothing to do but save souls, therefore spend and be spent in this work".

I'll let others chime in their thoughts on other aspects or even these. Later.

[twc_admin]

seeing how as I don't have a clue what "Cultural Mandate of Genesis" means ... I'll just have to bow out and lurk here on this topic - maybe I can learn something.

I don't know what that stuff means - but I'm confident that if given the opportunity, I can lead and assist people into encountering the glorious Presence of God through singing, meditation, worship, praise, etc ... and hopefully, with that glimpse of Him ... God, who is faithful to complete the work He starts, will "get to work!" :-)

[MarkSooy]

great quote...francis is awesome
it seems to me you are having an issue with seeker churches that are all about getting people in and it being real showy... and less about coming to church to worship the king and discipleship.
I do as well...
But I think it isn't technology that is creating that environment issue it's the heart of the leadership and the sometimes skewed vision of a church.

So, to follow up on your thought: What would be a proper vision of the church, and how does that biblical/theological/philosophical vision of what the church is relate to the use of technology in the church's mission and purpose?

[Klampert]

that reference is to in Genesis where it says be fruitful and multiply and "subdue" the earth..basically talking about being a good steward of what you are given and acknowledging that Christ alone can create.

Interesting stuff.

I think get where you are going, but it seems you are playing devils advocate...I don't know if I have necessarily heard your opinion on this.

We should be in the world not of the world...true...

But we should also be good "stewards" of everything that comes from above.
I own a computer and a guitar and I will use them for the kingdom..

again this goes back to what I said before...being a good steward also means having the right heart and vision..If your goal in a church is to create a killer rock "concert" and the lighting is there to accent the cool tshirts the guys are wearing...and we are podcasting because it makes us cooler...
Then that is not a good steward of his gifts..
but if we are doing as Fred said and guiding the congregation into the Holy of Holies and we are being used as vessels for His kingdom then using every means necessary (this does not mean doing things against His word)

Using every means necessary is good stewardship of His gifts and His blessing to further the Kingdom

[dtpuga]

I echo what some other folks have said here already so I won't repeat them really. I just agree that a demand for a deeper answer is not 'our problem.' I think using the tools that God has given us to use is answer enough.

Another thought though...

Look at it from a missionary perspective. If you are going to the African jungles to share Jesus you need to know how to be culturally relevant to BEST communicate them the Gospel. (I know that Jesus can use a rock, but sometimes He doesn't, he uses us instead.) If you show up there with technology, its just going to be a distraction, but if show up in clothing and with items that they deem comfortable, familiar, and even relevant to THEM, then you have their ear. They get to see a Jesus who understands them. Take that and put it in America or 'modern culture' that is uber technological. If they feel that Jesus is archaic they may not feel he is relevant to their needs. I believe that if Jesus were here today he would be in a pop-band (as much as I hate pop music) because even in the bible he ministered to the masses. He walked with them. He had partys that 'sinners' wanted to be at. Jesus was culturally relevant. I know that Jesus also calls us to be different from the world. But I think the challenge there is to "use the world's tools to do something extra-ordinary." The world provided 5 loaves and two fish, he fed the multitude. The world gave us Hollywood, Mel Gibson gave an amazing story of redemtpion and took us THERE in The Passion. The world gives us rock music, let's give them the most positive experience they can have with said music. (I also know that the world didn't give us any of that, God did.) I could go on here but I think I will start beating a dead horse.

My second question is this, why do you ask? I am just not clear on the issue. You stated that you find very little discussion on the issue anywhere. A lot of the time that may be the first hint that it isn't really an issue. Is the question coming from a personal conviction, a question from a friend, a challenge from a traditionalist? I just think it sounds more like a 'the way things used to be' kind of point than anything else. The history of the church is full of people using eveything they can get their hands on to communicate Jesus. If that should not be the case, how far back do we trace history to define the point where THAT is enough. Where do we look to say THAT point in time provided enough 'tools' to get the job done? The Garden? Is it skin, bones, and our words? (Again, I recognize that the rocks will cry out, I recognize that we should use our actions, but I don't think that is what our conversation is about.)

I also recognize that I am a Tech. Director and have a skewed perspective. Just throwing my opinion out there.

Travis

[russhutto]

My first response, is similar to the Geico Caveman's response...

"Yeah, I have a response...uh....what?"

But then when I begin to think about it a little more deeply, I appreciate the question. I don't fully undesrtand it, though. What prompted the question, and why is there a need to take "Using things God has given us to impact the lives of others for the Kingdom" any deeper?

Ultimately, we as Believers should exist for one set of principles, Kingdom principles. The principles Jesus laid out in the Sermon on the Mount. The ultimate goal of a Believer is to please God in heaven. To live for eternity, not for now. Whether it's using tech in a worship service or giving to the poor privately, it's all about our Father in Heaven who sees us and will reward us accordingly. That's not to the neglect of being a good steward, or reaching people in the here and now, it's all part of the process.

If we are living Kingdom principles, we WILL be good stewards of tech, finances, time, etc. We WILL be tending to the needs of those around us. We WILL be making a difference in our world. Here.

Does anything get "deeper" than that?

[MarkSooy]

Thanks for the ongoing discussion. I'm just tuning in again after a long day, but wanted to continue to clarify my meaning and thoughts.

At one point someone mentioned that I might be playing "devil's advocate," but in fact this is a thread of thought I've been considering for some time. Many years ago I wrote a short paper titled "A Philosophy of Worship Ministry in the Local Church." Later, during ordination, I was required to speak to the every-day relevance of various doctrinal and theological issues through written responses to questions, and then before a group of senior pastors. During my Masters program we constantly asked ourselves how the discussions we were having on theology and great Christian thinkers mattered in the every day world of our churches and lives. My first book is even titled "Essays on Martin Luther's Theology of Music," which discusses the underlying theological framework through which Luther viewed the worship of the church, and specifically the use of music in comparison to Calvin and Zwingli.

For me, on a personal level, the greatest "reform" of my Christian walk has come from these kinds of studies and by pursuing threads of thought such as I've raised here. So, this is a personal pursuit for greater spiritual depth and understanding which will always precedes a deeper understanding of who Christ is and how I might know and serve Him better.

I suppose what I'm after is ideas to fill in gaps in what I might call "A Theology of Technology," similar to some of the writing I mentioned above. For some this may not seem relevant, yet let us remember the beauty of the Body of Christ and its varying gifts and passions given by the Holy Spirit. As we fulfill our God-given place in the body, we serve those around us and are satisfied with returning our gifts in thanksgiving to God. For me, this means thinking, writing, theologizing.

Please continue to think through this with me. Maybe I can draw these ideas together into a single coherent "Theology of Technology" for use by our community.

[russhutto]

When you put it that way it becomes a bit clearer. I sense that you are a thinking man's thinking man...

I'm always up for good challenge, and this topic seems to be what could be an interesting conversation. I'm challenged so far not necessarily to change my perspective, but to rub elbows (per se) with a different perspective. Hopefully, broadening my own in the process.

One question I still have though, is to what end, other than filling the pages of a book that, honestly I believe, might be a little "heady" to the average worship leader/director, is the pursuit of this concept taking you towards?

I can honestly accept if it's just the pursuit of tackling a subject that is not talked about, or even little is known about...I'm just curious.

Are there any other areas of church life which might parallel to this particular line of thinking? For example, the topic here is looking for any Biblical evidence or support for using Technology within worship environments/church...might there be any other "stuff" we can lump in with that?

[MarkSooy]

One question I still have though, is to what end, other than filling the pages of a book that, honestly I believe, might be a little "heady" to the average worship leader/director, is the pursuit of this concept taking you towards?

I can honestly accept if it's just the pursuit of tackling a subject that is not talked about, or even little is known about...I'm just curious.

To what end? -- On the one hand, yes, it's not discussed and it should be, even if some don't bother seeking this kind of understanding or "don't get it."

On the other hand, if we can in some small way affect a change in what happens by helping develop the thinking of a person or ministry, this would serve the church well. "Thinking comes before action" is a biblical concept, though I've actually quoted Francis Schaeffer because he says it so succinctly.

An example: A recent visit to a worship service revealed an increase in entertainment value compared to a previous visit several years before. One of these pieces of entertainment was the installation of "moving" lights. They were fancy, interesting, and entertaining yet actually detracted from the worship experience. When these lights began to move our focus shifted away from the the lyrics and thought of the moment to the "cool" moving lights.

My response to this was that someone installed these lights because they were cool and entertaining, but if asked how they enhance the interaction of the attendees with the Spirit's movement in the service? Or how they underscore the purpose of the worship of the church? Or how they justify the distraction from the lyrical thought? -- I don't believe the techs (or Pastors) could have answered in more than a fumbling type of reasoning.

"Why are you doing this?" is a reasonable question to ask. And one that should be carefully and thoroughly considered before answering (and, by default, before doing something!)

Are there any other areas of church life which might parallel to this particular line of thinking? For example, the topic here is looking for any Biblical evidence or support for using Technology within worship environments/church...might there be any other "stuff" we can lump in with that?

I'll need to think on this a little more, but I'd be interested in more development from you on the above quote.

[russhutto]

Good post.


My response to this was that someone installed these lights because they were cool and entertaining, but if asked how they enhance the interaction of the attendees with the Spirit's movement in the service? Or how they underscore the purpose of the worship of the church? Or how they justify the distraction from the lyrical thought? -- I don't believe the techs (or Pastors) could have answered in more than a fumbling type of reasoning.

"Why are you doing this?" is a reasonable question to ask. And one that should be carefully and thoroughly considered before answering (and, by default, before doing something!)

I am beginning to see more and more where you are coming from. In the beginning it seemed as though you're question was more from the vague angle. I assumed you were asking, in a general sense, why we use technology in church, bu, correct me if I'm wrong, what you're asking and advocating is the SPECIFIC use of tech in a worship/discipleship environment.

Using the cool moving lights as an example, I totally see where you're coming from. Maybe we should ask in the general sense, but to me, it seems extremely beneficial to "laser focus" in to each specific component of the tech we might be using, and to ask ourselves how does this enhance or detract from the worshiper's/attender's experience.

Bottom line: if it distracts even one person's attention away from the focus of Christ and His principles, should we employ it?

Originally Posted by blindeyesopen View Post
Are there any other areas of church life which might parallel to this particular line of thinking? For example, the topic here is looking for any Biblical evidence or support for using Technology within worship environments/church...might there be any other "stuff" we can lump in with that?

I guess what I'm thinking about is any other areas in our lives which might be excess "fat" so to speak. Are there things in our lives that we might be able to take a look at using the same approach as questioning the use of specific tech components. I think for me, as is being discussed in another thread (here (http://www.theworshipcommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=471)), the use of mainstream music could be an area that parallels this topic. I've also thought about "traditional" sunday school. Is it necessary, does it truly benefit the disciple? Or even the "pseudo-traditional/traditional" 2 hour packaged church "service" ...

Does that make any sense? I'm just trying to follow an initial line of thought I had when reading the topic at the beginning. It may lead to nowhere.

[lytesource]

....I dont know if there needs to be a biblical reason why we use technology...I think that we should use every means and every gift we are given. On top of that I think that the church should not be behind in technology it needs to be in the forefront.
With that said I think biblically it comes down to Christ gives us gifts and tools and we should use them and get better at them and be committed to excellence in those areas...I dont think its very excellent to get trapped in the stone age of technology.....

Oh ya! That's what i'm about! As believers in the Most High Creator shouldn't we be in the forefront in everything we do?

AMEN to that. But at the same time I have take a look at how Jesus reached the people. We must also be sure to Keep It Simple. Down to what we really need not just the latest techno goodie out there.

'nough said.

[Klampert]

exactly...and I think that way about our worship in general. not just doing what is cool but what is relevant...

I did a post (http://cecworship.wordpress.com/2007/05/24/modern-worship-time-for-a-new-term/) on that on my blog...it's an interesting read so ill pop it in here. I think it really applies:

Modern worship: time for a new term
May 24th

About 3 weeks ago My dad who is the pastor of our church came asked me a question.
“What makes modern music Modern”
My answer was can’t you tell the difference? We both agreed we could but it really didn’t make much sense what made a song sound like 2007. Look at whats out there right now. Christina Aguilera has a CD out right now which is pretty much all 1920’s sounding music. It seems what makes something so called modern is in the production of the music. So what makes the worship music Modern or not modern?
An interesting post was done on the song Everlasting God, by Brenton Brown, on both my blog (http://cecworship.wordpress.com/2007/04/19/i-hate-that-song/) and on Ragamuffin Soul (http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/). Los over there said the song wasn’t very 2007 and wondered how he could fix that. I wrote a post on it myself and agreed but wrote that as worship leaders we need to play stuff we might not enjoy or even like for the sake of the worship of the congregation.
Los decided to play it and it has since grown on him and they have done it a bunch of times in church now. The congregation loves it. His church is a very “hip” church. So why do they love the song, a song that no matter how you play it (even his way) does not sound like it was written after the year 2000?
I thought about this a whole bunch. I realized that as musicians we are looking for modern worship. Music that gets our guitars crankin’ and amps to 11. This is ok but also as musicians we get bored quick while the congregation doesn’t. As worship leaders we shouldn’t think in the same way. We should be looking for music that is relevant. This is my new buzz word. I want relevant worship not modern worship. I love crankin guitars but that isn’t what gets people to worship. relevance does. The songs need to be relevant in sound, emotion, lyrics, and spirit to the culture in our towns and congregations. My worship team practiced there is no one like you by crowder. Killer song. Modern through and through. It’s a great song, but we aren’t doing it in church because it isn’t relevant to our church. We do other so called modern songs that are fast and crankin’ but they are relevant.
I urge the worship leaders who read this to take a good look at their catalog of music. Take stock in what is relevant and what is just done because it is cool or modern. There is a time for most styles and lyrics of worship, but understanding what is relevant to your congregation and what can help bring them into the throneroom is key.

[Adam Ogden]

This has been a fun post to sit back and watch. As the "Mod" for this area (whatever that means), I initially felt like I needed to respond quickly, but I decided to wait and see what you all had to say. A pretty wide range of ideas and thoughts...its great to see everyone's response.

First, I want to say one quick thing about my good friend Klampert's last post. Relevance is KEY to being successful in church ministry....whether it be in Music, Teaching, etc. The have this as your "buzz word" is a great thing....relevance isn't being modern....and being relevant is more important....great job in identifying this. However, there is another word I encourage you to to keep in the forefront as well. It's a word that initially makes you say "duh" to yourself....but if you don't keep it in front of you...just like you do Relevance, it can become secondary. Authenticity. Being relevant doesn't matter, if your actions aren't authentic. I've seen many churches struggle, because they went through all of the actions of trying to be "relevant" in today's world.....but it wasn't real.....and it was obvious. I encourage ALL of us, pair these words together, and ask yourself, "Are we Relevant? Are we Authentic?" Read my BLOG (http://www.adamogden.com/weblog/2007/03/20/revealing-the-not-so-secret/) about this very subject.

Let's talk about the moving lights for a second. I think the obvious answer the question Blindeyes posted, "if it distracts even one person's attention away from the focus of Christ and His principles, should we employ it?", is a resounding NO. Back to the Basic thought process for a second, technology exists to help ENHANCE the worship environment, not ruin it. In the case of the poorly-used moving lights, I think that example (and many similar examples in churches around America) is a result of poor training, poor vision-casting for the Ministry, and poor definition of the role of the lighting tech. At Canyon Ridge, I developed a "Mission Statement" and Motto for the Production Department. The Statement reads "The Production Department exists at Canyon Ridge for one purpose: To enhance the worship experience by providing seamless technical services; and by using Audio, Video, and Lighting to create an environment where people can connect to God." Our Motto is simple here: "Transparency is Success". Neither one of those are overly-biblical, and I can't even admit that there is a scripture reference to back them up....but they still provide a standard, or structure to guide everything we do. Those same lights in the same room in the same service, could have been used twice as effectively, if there was a zero-distraction tolerance, and the lighting tech had some training.....not a Master's in theology.....just some training.

again this goes back to what I said before...being a good steward also means having the right heart and vision..If your goal in a church is to create a killer rock "concert" and the lighting is there to accent the cool tshirts the guys are wearing...and we are podcasting because it makes us cooler...
Then that is not a good steward of his gifts..


I totally agree....having a vision for where you are going, and pure heart about reaching the people is essential. Being a good steward of the resources you have is also necessary. But I want to challenge something....you next line "your goal in a church is to create a killer rock "concert" and the lighting is there to accent the cool tshirts the guys are wearing...and we are podcasting because it makes us cooler...
Then that is not a good steward of his gifts..", I'm not sure I agree with. Now, I should say this FIRST.....if that is ALL we are trying to be....then yes, I think we have missed the mark....but to be that church intentionally, at intentional times, I think is very productive. Every year we have a fall festival, Halloween-alternative thing like everyone else....In a matter of 4 hours, over 10,000 people walk on our campus....it's a HUGE, kid-centered event. In conjunction, we have a concert inside....for this concert, we specifically book bands that have a ton of crossover (into mainstream) music, or a ton of crossover appeal....Switchfoot, Plus One, Jump 5, Zoe Girl, Stellar Kart, SuperChick (remember kids event). We do this, and specifically try to be the coolest show in town on that night. In fact, we usualy don't even share the gospel formally inside that concert venue at all that night. You are thinking: WHY?!!? The answer is simple I think. When else are we going to capture the attention of 10,000 kids? Thank God they even walked on a church campus (this is Vegas....no really...thank God)....they are already cynical, expecting something "hokey" from a church....ready to find a reason to walk out. Why give them that reason? We can show Christ's excellence through the production value; and more importantly, we can show Christ's mercy and love through our LIVES. Just to get them on our campus is a step. To have them see that church really isn't boring and dull and critical and condemning is yet another step. To have them come back to see what this Jesus guy is about is another step. With every step, they are one step closer to knowing Him. Again, to plan certain strategies and events and things as intake events is a great way to reach people who would normally not come to a church. I agree though, if the church BECOMES the show, something is wrong.

I am one of those "seeker-churches" that someone mentioned early on....and am a little disappointed that the definition was "...seeker churches that are all about getting people in and it being real showy". Statements like this are what builds walls in church cultures. First of all....if we aren't "all about getting people in", then why the heck are we even here?! Jesus came to "Seek and Save the Lost" (Luke 19:10), as are we.... "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20) Now, while the gauge of success is NOT whether or not you are a "mega church", I firmly believe a healthy church is a church that is growing. If we aren't "getting people in", and trying to help them turn their lives around, aren't we simply "playing church", and pacifying our own complacency? Secondly, immediately combining the "seeker-church" and "showy" terms seems to do nothing but fuel the stereotyping fire. I think I have types this somewhere else before, but I'll type it again here.....success in ministry is not about being "the best", it's about doing the best with what you have. This brings into check what you do with your resources, no matter what size church you are. If you have a single wired microphone, and 2 par can lights, then you are expected to do the very best with that. Nothing more, nothing less. The more resources (equipment, knowledge, trained staff,etc) that God has blessed you with, the more you are expected to do with it. It's the old "To whom much is given, much is expected" thing. To some, me doing my very best with what I have, might seem over the top, or extravagant. When I go to Willow Creek, even I am awestruck at what they have, and more importantly, what they DO with what they have. The utilize their resources to the best of their abilities, and it shows. But they do it, within the bounds of their own defined mission, like I described above. Being "showy" isn't wrong, if it's bringing people in....bottom line.

Now, my last point...something to make you think (maybe). I mentioned that that the level of "showyness" is relative to what you are used, and that what the next person has is extravagant, compared. But I would like to post the question: So What? Check out this excerpt:

"...Should we really invest that much money in AV equipment? If we expect to reach our culture we must keep up with them technically. Our neighbors and friends who are far from God are used to surround-sound movies in HD and state-of-the-art lighting at concerts and shows they attend. We want our congregation to bring their friends and not have them turned off because we seem antiquated in our methodology. I would beg the leadership not to skimp in the area of AV equipment."


"Extravagant? Yes. As extravagant as the perfume that was poured on our Lord’s feet…and Jesus said to her "…wherever the Good News is preached throughout the world, this woman’s deed will be talked about in her memory" (Matthew 26:13) Don’t be frivolous, but why not be extravagant for God? He deserves our best."

We must keep in perspective the fact that technology isn’t God, and that technology only exists to help convey the message of God. If we do this, we can’t be wrong. Having poor audio in a church doesn’t just mean they don’t have the best audio….it means there is a distraction…something that can prohibit the Word of God from reaching every ear in the house as clearly as it should. Churches shouldn’t go into debt just for the sake of technology. But remember that seekers or new church-goers tend to look for things that will discredit the church…..as Karl said above, if we "look" or "feel" antiquated, they disengage, and we have lost our chance. So, for those who say we spend too much on technology, or furniture, or marketing, or anything, consider the verse above. There are unfortunately hundreds of churches nationwide that spend no money on anything, and it is apparent in every service they hold. People’s salvation doesn’t revolve around the church budget, and it shouldn’t. Any money spent, for even one saved soul, is worth the cost.

[Adam Ogden]

MAKE SURE YOU READ PART 1 FIRST...THIS IS A CONTINUATION....

I had a student as part of my lighting team, and he went off to school at Hope International University, and is majoring in Theology. After his first six months, his first return back home, he wouldn't shut up (God bless him), and questioned the Theological and Philosophical basis of everything..."why does the church exist? Why does random notes put together make a song? Why is that stop sign red?" Those questions quite honestly, made me a little jaded when I first read the initial post. While I totally understand Fred's initial response of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", I also see the validity of bringing the issue to the forefront of our minds. For me, I don't need a philosophical undestanding of why the stopsign is red....it is...it always will be...and it works well being red. Past that, who cares. Honestly, as dumb as this may make me sound.....I could not care less what Martin Luther did back in his day.....the only people that discuss his efforts are grad students anyways :).....knowing his efforts doesn't change my plan, and my definition of excellence in the production department.

I don't need a specific bible verse or written thesis to know how to effectively run a technical ministry, or what defines one. Just like anything, I need to clarify "the win"...what is a technical achievement? Distraction-free service? Well-executed service program? Both of those are valid, and good short-term measurements of success....but personal life change....when you see someone brought to their face before God...not because of anything you did....but because what you did, didn't get in the way......that's the win. How you get to that point will be different for every church, depending on style, size, resources, people, and other things.....but it's why we are here. There are lost people out there.....God is knocking......let's walk them to the door....


Lastly (really this time), there is a spiritual growth piece of the puzzle too. Our church puts a huge emphesis on serving in the church....we run off of volunteers....I'm sure many of you are the same way. I (and the church) really believe that serving Christ in His church is a valuable and necessary part of someone's spiritual growth. Just like other things (bible reading, quiet time, etc), I believe that your spiritual life will eventually plateau until you take the next step in each of these areas....to grow, and move out of your comfort zone. Because serving is such an important part of someone's spiritual journey, we (the church) can't tell them to grow, without providing places for them to serve (grow). Technology is a great TOOL in the toolbox of translating God's Word. But the operators and technicians that are there...we have to remember that for them, it shouldn't be about the task, it should be about the relationship....between the church leadership and them, and between them and God. It's in these instances where we get to provide care, and 1-on-1 community time with these people. It's also in these instances where I have seen God show up in these people's lives, because of the service they do. I have strong conviction about doing things with excellence.... and in the same respect, I believe everyone is a "10" at something. Maybe I have a lighting guy who just seems to be a "2" at lighting, no matter what direction I give him. He's got a great heart, and wants to serve, but there are two issues. 1. He is executing distracing lighting cues that some guy is going to blog about weeks from now :), so he isn't providing a distraction-free service, a core value of the team, and 2. He is a "10" at something that he is missing out on....so he is distracting a room full of people, he fills unfulfilled because somewhere he knows he's a "2" at lighting, and someone, somewhere isn't getting served, because he isn't untilizing his "10" in the right area. Technology in the church, in addition to everything I said in part one, is a great excuse to get a bunch of "10" members together, help them grow in their spiritual lives by serving God, and provide a "10" experience for the "consumer". This is true for people who serve food in the cafe, work in our setup team, people who work in the parking lots, greeters, ushers, artists, technicians, and so on. We are drawing new people in, and raising up spiritually mature Christians by placing them in the areas that they are best suited. Technology is a great way to get people involved, and if done properly, helps deliver God's Word in the most real, Authentic, Relevant, and impactful way.

[El Ben]

Well, a good bit of this stuff is either over my head or either was so long that I couldn't bring myself to read it, and while I totally understand why a discussion like this is relevant and possibly even important, I'd like to pose a question in answer to Mark's initial question of "Why?"

Why not?

But in the interest of keeping it all in the mix.

Consider Jesus in Mark chapter 4 verses 1 and 2

1- Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge. 2- He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said:

As God incarnate, Jesus knew that going out into the boat (a form of technology [since otherwise he'd have to swim]) and preaching over the water would naturally amplify his voice.

Here's your biblical example of using technology for reaching the masses, and it's from Jesus.

Secondly, Jesus taught the people by parable. The popular Jewish (religious) teaching method of the day was lecturing. Jesus' parabalic teaching and his leadership style (questions, more questions, and even more questions) was decidedly more in the style of the popular Greek philosophers of the day instead of the staunch Hebrew scribes and Pharisees. This sounds incredibly like being culturally relevant.

So...here's an example of using modern psychology and philosophy to stylize your communication skills (not your message, of course, but your communication skills).

[Klampert]

wow great comments...My thoughts short and sweet.lol:

first off authenticity is the most important thing for sure.. They will know us by our love.

next... I wasn't completely clear on my seeker church comment. i don't consider your church a seeker church first off...and i agree with your comment about your great music church etc. event you guys do. My issue with the "seeker" church is the ones that its a show every week. It's the church where 60% of the people there arent members but just checking out the next dog and pony show. I think this is a bad use of our gifts in a church setting.
It comes down to the great commission for me on that one...go into the world preaching the gospel and making disciples...
We should use every gift every resource we can get our hands on to further the kingdom...My issue starts with churches that don't complete the great commission...Those that are so focused on the "experience" that discipleship isn't a priority.

I hope i didnt offend you with the seeker church talk...To me there are 2 kinds of seeker churches ones that are truely "authentic" and fulfil the great commission and then there are those who are literally all about show.


Side Note: Some here do or don't have issues with the word supporting full use of technology ...it's funny to me that a tech meets theology question is posed on this modern form of technology....a web forum.

Thanks for the great comments adam. Your insight is really helpful.

[El Ben]

Ironically, most of the "seeker" churches that I know aren't "seeker" in the modern sense of the word. I'm thinking of, for instance, the largest church in my hometown (Podunkville AKA Pearson, GA). This church has a pastor who can barely string a coherent sentence together and a worship team that lives for those good-ole theologically unsound (anyone taking a ride on the good old gospel ship anyone?) red-book (what they call the hymnal) songs.

This church is large and growing because nearly every sunday they have a guest speaker or a "gospel sing" (complete with dinner on the grounds). They serve the needs of southern church culture, but do absolutely nothing else. Understand, I'm not taking a shot, just stating reality. I have a friend who is sort of the youth pastor (not realy, but sort of) and he is frustrated by the fact that they constantly run around a hundred and fifty at any given time, but they can't keep a family for more than six months.

I say all that to say this: the whole "Seeker Friendly or Seeker Sensitive" movement has little to do with technology. It's all about catering to the psycho-social needs of the target audience. It's a useful tool, I suppose, but I worry about the trend that I've seen where some churches base their whole strategy around it.

[Klampert]

exactly...thats where the issue is...we do this because it makes people "feel good" but that where the problem arises with dedication and real commitment.. and why churches like you just wrote about have no "real" congregation. Church isn't about our feelings
in the words of paul its about Christ and Him crucified...thats it...

I read a book recently called simple church...its about church organization and simplifying. Its a fantastic read...SO GO BUY IT...any way...i think that it's time for churches to be dedicated to "seeking" and getting more people in...but focusing on discipling them so they can grow in Christ.

and you are so right it isnt about technology or whatever... it's more so the understanding that

we have great resources...we need to use them in a relevant and authentic way that fulfills our role as believers.

[chrismoncus]

Adam... wow. That's all. Wow.

Thanks for your perfect response.

El Ben... simple and completely accurate. Our lakes today are a set of Meyer line arrays, Crown amps, and a Yamaha M7CL. :)

[chrismoncus]

next... I wasn't completely clear on my seeker church comment. i don't consider your church a seeker church first off...and i agree with your comment about your great music church etc. event you guys do. My issue with the "seeker" church is the ones that its a show every week. It's the church where 60% of the people there arent members but just checking out the next dog and pony show. I think this is a bad use of our gifts in a church setting.

Again, let me echo something Adam Ogden said. If you see a depthless and showy church with no attempt at engaging people with the Gospel, that's not even a church. That's a club with "church" in the name. I think you might have a definition problem.

Nancy Beach of Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago segments effective churches into three areas. Seeker-Targeted, Seeker-Sensitive, and Believer-Targeted.

I think you see Seeker-Targeted and dismiss it believing it should be Seeker-Sensitive. There is a difference.

Seeker-Targeted churches provide a potential experience with God with low demands on the person attending. In other words, it is for the person who is cold towards God. This church attempts to warm them up to the idea of a loving God. Part of this may include uses of technology in more showy ways, but nonetheless it still exists to warm people up and give them a chance to enter a relationship with God. No Christianese is used. It also exists to grow these new believers and get them on their way to becoming fully-devoted followers of Christ.

Seeker-Sensitive churches are there to build up the body of Christ and grow it in discipleship but to be sure that their message translates and is understandable by those far from Christ. This is where most churches should sit in my opinion.

The there is the Believer-Targeted. This is the typical church that our parents grew up in. It is all about discipleship and training and growing. This type of church exists to equip believers for ministry and outreach. Their services typically use bigger words that the congregation already knows and challenges them to consistently learn more.

Of the three models I described, I think all have their place and no one is better than another. They all have strengths. Where they have weaknesses is where the other churches shine. The God-hater needs to attend the Seeker-Targeted church. The Christian of 30 years might feel like she isn't growing in the Seeker-Targeted though. She needs the Believer-Targeted.

All in all, each of these is strategic. I think churches need to latch on to one of these ideas and run with it.

But please, don't just play church and call it "for seekers".

[Klampert]

true, but i guess what I am saying is that the church should really be a balance of those 3 areas...not a focus on one...I think going back to the original church fathers teaches us a lot about the fact that you dont have to go on one end of the spectrum or the other to reach people...we need to be more balanced as a whole...

[russhutto]

Hey guys great posts, but it appears as though we're drifting from the original topic, which is Technology.

I do like El Ben's use of the boat and parable as examples of using tech/cultural relevance to impact people.

We also hit the nail on the head when we seek to be a balanced church. BUT I do believe we would benefit more as a whole if we sought to pick a specific demographic and worked hard to create an excellent environment to not only meet their real and perceived needs, but to also point them to a loving God, paint a picture of what relationship with Christ looks like, and to shepherd and disciple those who cross the line of faith, while continuing to train and equip those who are maturing to become "circular" in their evangelistic efforts (not only "growing by being fed" but in learning to "feed" others.

So, we are balanced not necessarily in our target group, but in our ministry/vision cycle as it impacts the specific people we reach. That's where the diversity within the Body becomes so important. It's painfully obvious that increasing the number of churches within any city does not equal success. I'm grateful that there are many churches opening their doors each year all over the nation, but it also appears that more are closing their doors each year, than are opening them. We make it a huge point to point people to another church, if they come to ours and they are "looking" for a more traditional environment. We know that if another church grows we all do.

So, our prayer is that more churches will come into existence with a balanced approach to reaching SPECIFIC people groups. I don't necessarily mean race, our church is very multi-colored. I don't necessarily mean financial status, our church ranges the spectrum. I think it just depends on what God tells you is your target.

Ok, now that I'VE gone off topic a bit, I think I'll try and bring it back.

Ultimately, I think the original question would have been better phrased like:

Are there areas within our ministries, that while we THINK they are culturally relevant, may actually be distracting to the people we THINK think is cool?

Specifically, in the area of tech, are we chasing the latest trends, and calling it being at the forefront? Are we using swirly lights, because MTV is?

Now, before you nail me to the wall, I actually want to use any and every swirly light I can find. I enjoy it. It looks good. And people tend to like it.

HOWEVER, in our environment we keep things simple. I wish we had the resources to look like some of these "sets" I've seen. We don't, so we do the best with what we DO have. During our times of music, the lights we do have create a concerty feel. Why? It ENHANCES the experience. During times of one person speaking, we minimize to ONE SPOT on the speaker. Why? All the other moving, flashing lights could be distracting.

I know this is going to be a weird analogy I'm about to throw out here, but stick with me. Sometimes we have to re-stress to our female worship leaders to wear clothing that doesn't allow "the girls" (as Stacy and Clinton so eloquently call them on TLC's What Not To Wear, thanks to my beautiful bride for that!) to move freely. Why? It's a distraction. We intentionally try to prevent that distraction.

Ok, maybe not the greatest analogy to use, but to me it's just as important. I like Adam's thinking when he said that if we are at the opposite end of the spectrum with CRAPPY or no tech, we might be as distracting as if we use too much tech.

[chrismoncus]

Klampert, I truly am not trying to argue, but I do see it differently.

I think all three of those together create a balance in the capital "C" Church, but each little "c" church has its own mission. Each town and segment of town has their own needs. We approach missions in Morocco differently than missions in inner-city LA. We approach an atheist differently than our 4 year old son.

I guess what I'm saying is that if we think globally, then there is a balance in the Church, but that each congregation has its own purpose. Not everyone is supposed to be a hand or nose in the body of Christ. Likewise, not every church is called to fulfill the same role.

If I ran a church in Calcutta like the country church I grew up in, it would flop and reach almost no one. But, my childhood country church did reach country people on their level.

That's more demographics than spiritual condition, but the principle is the same - reach people where they are. Speak their language. Operate on their level.

Any given church can not reach all people. It just can't. Segmenting and specializing will give a church the edge in being able to be that church thar will reach them where they are.

ABC Baptist will reach some. XYZ Community Church will reach others. If they each specialize in an area then they will be more effective than before.

Agree? Disagree?

[Klampert]

blindeyes...good word and well said...and great reference from what not to wear...they crack me up. lol

chris...I do agree. I guess what I'm saying is that if a church isnt fulfilling the basic chrisitian principles then its got a problem.. basics meaning preach the word...get people saved and disciple them...
maybe what it comes down to is your right...maybe they arent a "real"church to begin with...my thought is while we may be different parts of the body those fundimentals should never change.

Side Note: your flickr page has some great shots...good to see another NAPP member also

[chrismoncus]

So it looks like we finally understand each other. :) I really appreciate your heart to see people saved and discipled.

Thanks for the comments on my flickr stuff (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrismoncus/). I really liked the Sackcloth designs.

[MarkSooy]

Adam,

Interesting, multi-layered response. Would you mind summarizing what you've written in a number of "bullet-points"? I'm thinking this might help to get our heads around all you've said.

Thanks!!

[MarkSooy]

Some general observations and commonalities of what has been posted (by way of synopsis):

First, the thought of relevance and authenticity. We must meet those we encounter with the truth of Christ in a way that will help them see that truth (relevance) and in a way that is real, and not fake (authenticity). This has been variously filled out in the preceding comments quite well. Some other terminology we could use on this point would be "understanding our ministry context." Not the same for a church in Vegas and a church in Sheboygan!

Second, the idea of enhancement. That technology is used to enhance, and to "dis-enhance" (or distract) is a poor use of technology. Again, many good ideas were presented about this.

Third, although not expressed in this way, there is a good element of the concept of spiritual gifts in the discussion. Some are gifted in the use of technology, and others are not -- but are gifted elsewhere. This is a highly biblical and theological concept that goes to the point of my original post.

I would also like to respond to a specific quote from Adam, which I will do on my next post:

[MarkSooy]

Back to the Basic thought process for a second, technology exists to help ENHANCE the worship environment, not ruin it... At Canyon Ridge, I developed a "Mission Statement" and Motto for the Production Department. The Statement reads "The Production Department exists at Canyon Ridge for one purpose: To enhance the worship experience by providing seamless technical services; and by using Audio, Video, and Lighting to create an environment where people can connect to God." Our Motto is simple here: "Transparency is Success". Neither one of those are overly-biblical, and I can't even admit that there is a scripture reference to back them up....but they still provide a standard, or structure to guide everything we do.

I'd like to suggest that your purpose statement is grounded upon some very solid theological and biblical concepts. The fact that they are there, if we reflect for a while, shows a depth that is necessary beyond the pragmatic that I was seeking originally.

That this is a statement for the "department", and not simply for one individual means that utilizing spiritual giftedness is an important part of what you do -- as you mentioned somewhere in your post. Each person within the department is obviously educated in this philosophy, and it therein becomes individualized, yet still within the overall "body" of the department.

There is also an element of "service" within the statement. The department defines itself as a service arm of the local body of Christ. At this point, the "servant-leader" buzz comes to mind, which entails a serious understanding of a willingness to serve others out of a response of love for Christ and for others (by the way, that's a concept that is found most emphatically in Luther!!);)

The idea of "enhancement" shows a concern for a broad experience of worship, and an encounter with God that will overcome the pre-conceptions of people to deliver the truth into their lives. This the business of the church.

Do these ideas and points I've mentioned sound like dry, uninteresting subjects only discussed within the walls of a seminary (or as my daughter used to mispronounce it -- the semitary!!)? Doesn't this help us to see the broader implications of how the good use of technology, within a thoughtful ministry setting, can connect this ministry to the overall purposes of the church?

These are the kinds of thoughts I was hoping to see, and when we begin to ask some of us find that we've thought about it, developed an action plan, and moved on to doing the plan. Often, we no longer conciously keep these foundational ideas in mind as we do the work of ministry.

However, there are those among us -- on this forum and elsewhere -- who've never had the opportunity to think through these things. This topic is more than about how to just "do" technology in church. This is about how to "think" about technology from a Christian Worldview, which will lead to the proper using of technology within the church, within our homes, and in our personal lives.

[Adam Ogden]

Hey guys-

Wow, lots of good talk here. It's good to see all of the thoughts being thrown out here....it's good for us to challenge each other, and stretch what we are thinking.

Mark, you are right, it really is good to think about this stuff. While I don't necessarily think there needs to be a philosophical theological response to every action we make in the church....but for many things, I DO believe it is important that we keep what we do in check....don't just use technology for the sake of using it.....have a plan, and make an intentional impact with your technology. I think it's important to refocus every so often (we do this as a whole staff every 6 months), to make sure you are still on target.


So are you trying to say that I'm really the one who answered the question? :)

[russhutto]

While I don't necessarily think there needs to be a philosophical theological response to every action we make in the church....but for many things, I DO believe it is important that we keep what we do in check....

Maybe it's more like a set of principles/ideas that we work from. Like everything springs from a set of parameters, or blueprint that is foundational. So it's not so much trying to label everything with a particular scripture reference, or calling it this or that theologically, but it's more of recognizing that everything we do should benefit the whole body in a Biblically sound way. If it doesn't, why are we doing it?

[MarkSooy]

So are you trying to say that I'm really the one who answered the question? :)

In a way, yes, I think you did. You may not have used theological language, but your thoughts are full of theological and biblical background and underpinnings. I don't know much about you or the ministry you're a part of, but it certainly speaks (I hope) to the solid leadership of the pastoral staff and their own well-grounded ministry.

As to whether you "answered" the question? Is there a specific answer? When we deal with ministry context, does the answer shift and morph? You see, the underlying theology and philosophy will remain stable (because it is based upon the character of God), while our activity of putting that theology into action will vary. This is the wonderful concept within the body of "diversity in unity!"

I don't mean by this that the answer is "relative." I do mean that our thoughts on the subject should show a depth of thought that displays itself in a particular action. The truth of how we are to think about technology is true no matter whether we hold to the truth or not. We must be seekers of that truth, and then mold our activity to match, though that activity will be diverse in varying congregations.

[MarkSooy]

blindeyesopen wrote: Maybe it's more like a set of principles/ideas that we work from. Like everything springs from a set of parameters, or blueprint that is foundational. So it's not so much trying to label everything with a particular scripture reference, or calling it this or that theologically, but it's more of recognizing that everything we do should benefit the whole body in a Biblically sound way.

What you've just described, in a nutshell, is the concept of Worldview. For a primer on worldview read Mike Wittmer's "Heaven is a Place on Earth." For a more detailed discussion (strap yourselves in...), read Nancy Pearcey's "Total Truth."

In case you're wondering -- yes, I do think worship leaders should read these...

[El Ben]

Not to break the incredibly sweet sense of finality to this thread, but if the whole point was to make a point then... WHAT THE HECK WAS THE POINT??? Why waste time and storage space?

My brain hurts. Maybe I'm a shallow thinker, but shouldn't all of this just be common sense? Is further exposition really necessary? I mean, it's kind of like saying:

"The sky is blue, irrefutably blue. To be specific, it is of a cyan hue. If, perhaps the various variables that caused it to be blue did not, in fact, exist, then perhaps it would not be blue. Of course, the sky isn't blue to color-blind people, but that doesn't mean that ultimately, it isn't blue to the vast majority of people. However, since the blue nature of the sky is subjective depending on the ability of a person to discern blue or the reflectivity of particles in the atmosphere, then perhaps the sky may or may not be blue at all, but for now, the sky is definitely blue. What do you guys think about the blueness of the sky?

Not to be mean or to burst anyone's balloon, but I'm not sure makes me feel dumber: the fact that I actually participated in this madness to begin with, or the fact that I'm doing it again...

[MarkSooy]

The point is: Scripture clearly teaches that the believer is to have understanding (Colossians 1, and others). That this thinking is the basis for action (Ephesians and Colossians and Romans). And that the action and thinking must have integrity (in other words, that they match)(Also Romans and others).

As Christians, we are to think and act. Unfortunately, there is way too much acting before thinking in evangelical circles. The battle is for the mind -- so to think more clearly is to protect the very foundation our Christian walk.

Theology and biblical understanding is the foundation for the Christian life. It is also the foundation for ministry, including technical ministries. This is the point. This matters. This is the house built on the rock, not on the sand.

[El Ben]

Let me start where my problems with this whole concept begin.

What I'm after is a biblical/theological foundation that establishes the reason WHY we should be in the business of using technology -- in fact, REDEEMING technology for use by the Church...

First of all, I wasn't aware that the use of technology by the church needed redeeming. Why redeem it? (Aside from the reasons you've given already?) To go on the defensive with a subject implies that it needs defense. Give me three solid, biblical reasons why technology used in the church needs defending.

Please...don't really do that. I was just trying to express how this whole discussion comes across to me.

I know it seems as if I'm being purposefully antagonistic, but doesn't this seem just a little trite to you? Shouldn't we instead be trying to figure out how more effectively to apply things for use in furthering the gospel instead of trying to find biblical reasons for using them at all?

Instead of looking for biblical support for me to be using the internet for ministry, shouldn't I instead figure out how I can use the internet to make the biggest impact? I'm not going to get into semantics and hypothetical situations, but ultimately, what I am trying to say is this:

Tools are tools. Period. We don't need hunt down scriptural support to use each one. As I mentioned in my first post, Jesus used them frequently.

What makes more sense: discussing the finer points of using an axe to chop down a tree, or rolling up your sleeves, grabbing the axe, and cutting the tree down?

I'm not saying that theology doesn't have it's place, and I'm even willing to agree with you that there are a lot of people who act before they think. I just think that before you have a theological understanding of what you do, you actually need to do something. It's all well and good to have a lot of understanding, but it's what you DO with that understanding that validates it.

Just my opinion.

[Adam Ogden]

Ok guys, leave the boxing gloves in the closet.

Ben, I have to admit, when this thread first started, I had almost an identical perspective to yours. My thinking followed the "don't fix it if it isn't broke" model....if what we are doing works, and the tools we are using are effective, who cares WHY we use those tools? That, for the most part, is a pretty fair statement to make.

However...

As I have read more and more, I see what Mark is trying to get at. Technology exists for several reasons....to help spread the word, to help people utilize their spiritual gifts, etc, etc. But many churches...and by many, I mean most....have technology, just because it's the thing to have. Technology, and the teams that operate it are SO task-oriented, even in the church world, that it's easy to get into the monotony of "doing the job", week after week, Sunday after Sunday, without measuring the benifits and effectiveness of what we do. Do we have great equipment, because we want to be known for having great equipment, or because we want to be known as a church who effectively communicates the word, using every means possible? Churches (as a whole) measure their "success" or effectiveness in the community with quantifiable measurements....attendance, offering intake, etc. I think each ministry needs to do this internally....look at what we are doing, and look at the effectiveness, or the results of what we are doing. The only way you can do this, is to develop your own standard of "measurements" or standards, so you can see if what you are ACTUALLY doing, matches what you SHOULD be doing. Letting a ministry continue as it is, solely because it "works", without reviewing WHY it is you are doing it in the first place, seperates good leaders from great ones.

I see where you are coming from.....14 minutes into the service, when I hit the "mute" button on channel #25, I don't need a philosophical reason as to why I did that.....What I DO need is for my team to know...as a whole....why they mute mics when people walk offstage....they need to know not only HOW to push the buttons, but WHY they push them, and the repercussions if they don't do their job with excellence. Many churches allow mediocre technicians, because they run a mediocre ministry, and personally, I think this is unacceptable.

We do a year Vision-Casting service.....a "re-up" of why we are here, why we do what we do, and why it is so important we do it right. This is a great chance to share the overall vision of the church, and then tie your specific ministry into the overall vision, and do what you can without your ministry and means to help further the overall mission of the church. To me, to ONLY way to effectively do that, is to develop your own mission, that points right back to the whole purpose of the church.

Do you HAVE to have a reason, or a point? Well there is one....the question really is, do you HAVE to identify the reason, or the point? No....but your ministry will suffer because of it.

[MarkSooy]

It's all well and good to have a lot of understanding, but it's what you DO with that understanding that validates it.

So you agree with me that doing something valuable is the result of proper knowledge, since the doing (in your words) validates the knowledge.

Otherwise, doing something WITHOUT understanding would be...?

I think Adam is making a good point about balance. Too much thought and no action makes for a really "dry" church experience. And also, action with no thought leads to something other than an effective ministry.

[El Ben]

The boxing gloves are back in the closet. I've said what I think and I stand by it. Please refer to my previous posts for any further questions on what my opinion is.

[russhutto]

Also, as has been stated before:

We should use technology:

1) To reach people (evangelism)
2) To enhance our worship gathering (communication/clarity)
3) To provide service opportunities through our ministries (training/equipping people to set-up/tear-down/run our A/V components)

All of these spring from a Biblical mandate to make disciples and to train and equip the "saints" for the work of the ministry. If, as Adam pointed out, we can take specific and intentional measures to cast vision (as a whole) to our people, then there should be a built in "knowledge" of the WHY, that shores up and strengthens the DO.

[simple_praise]

Very interesting thread. I think that I'd just add that if you are doing things using technology or musically that are "cool" for the sake of being "cool", then the action is misplaced.

Working as an instructional designer and training manager for much of my career, I would ask many times "Are you doing this in your course because it's cool or because you can -or- was it done with a purpose to make the learning expereince more effective."

Same principles apply here.. If you are using technology for reaching the people and effectively communicating to your target audience(read in this case Gods word to the conregation) , great. Cool for cool sake is not what we should be about...