Keyboard advice

[hcguitar]

Let me start by saying that I am not a keyboard player. I can speak with some resemblance of knowledge about guitar, bass, and drums but when it comes to keys I am clueless. So yesterday I got to church and discovered that a door had been left unlocked and someone got in and stole a couple of our instruments. They took a bass, a guitar amp, and our keyboard (a Kurzweil pc88).

Since the police said the chances of recovering our instruments are slim to none, I'm shopping for a new (or possibly used) keyboard. We have a very talented keyboard player but she has no knowledge as far as what brands and features would be best for our needs. We mainly use a piano sound but at times use organ settings, strings, and pads.

I want the best sound quality and feel possible. With a budget of $2000, what would you recommend?

Also if someone could explain what the difference is between a stage piano, controller, and workstation are, that would be helpful too. Thanks!

[louca]

My humble advice would be to go with a Yamaha S90ES. In the interests of full disclosure, that is the keyboard I use. I own one myself and the church bought one on my recommendation. True, I am biased, but it seems to be popular especially in Christian music circles. It is NOT light, so if moving it around all the time is important, some other keyboard, although a compromise in sound, might be better. It weighs about 50 lbs. Also, if recording storage is necessary, the S90ES does not have any (i.e. no sequencer). I do think, and professionals have agreed, the S90ES has the best piano sound, hands down. (You see, I can say that because most of the folks here play guitars! :) ) The strings and pads are very good; the organ patches, like all synthesizers, stink. (IM me or start another thread if you want my very slanted opinion on how to get the Hammond organ sound). The S90 is also a good alternative, and there should be quite a few used ones. Buy used with caution, and always try before you buy.

A controller is a keyboard that does nothing but control another piece of equipment. Typically, a controller is connected to either a sound module of some sort, or to another keyboard. It works using MIDI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midi) and basically just controls things. When a key is pressed it tells the module to sound a note. It sounds like you don't want a controller.

A workstation contains recording memory such that the playing of songs, including piano and other parts (even real voice), can be recorded on the keyboard in its memory for later playback. For example, you could record drum tracks and other instruments to "back you up" as you played live. If you don't do a lot of playing around with that kind of stuff, it might not be worth it.

Not sure what the definition of a stage piano is. I just think of a piano that's on a stage. Maybe others know.

Lou

[Carrelmc]

Sorry to hear about your instruments being stolen! I'm a keyboard player and I may be of some help to you.

I believe what you are looking for is a stage piano. It is probably very similar to the Kurzweil (patch wise) in that it probably has a acoustic piano, electric piano, organ, strings and maybe a pad of some sort. The Kurzweil definitely has nice acoustic sounds such as piano & strings.

A controller keyboard has no sounds of it's own. It is dependent on either a computer with virtual instruments or a MIDI device such as another keyboard or sound module. It does require some programming so if your keyboard player doesn't get into that, forget it. :rolleyes:

A workstation is a keyboard that has a sequencer (for recording MIDI parts-possible audio), usually some built-in effects such as reverb, chorus, delay and a wide range of sounds. Depending on the manufacturer and the price paid, they are usually loaded with various options a.k.a. "bells & whistles".

I have been VERY pleased with Korg sounds over the years for worship. The only thing I don't like about Korg keyboards are that their acoustic piano sounds have been weak compared to Kurzweil and possibly Roland. Some of the virtual piano instruments make Kurzweil's pianos weak when you hear how detailed the samples are.

Anyway, if you want to keep it simple for your keyboard player and they mostly use the acoustic piano sounds, go with a stage piano. For $2000 you can get a nice Kurzweil keyboard, possibly something by Nord and Korg has just recently released a stage piano. Who knows, maybe that sounds killer now. Your other option is to buy a Macbook, controller keyboard, audio interface and dive into the world of virtual instruments.

I hope this helps!

[Carrelmc]

I just read the post before mine. I totally forgot about the Yamaha S90s!!! Definitely check those out as that person has suggested. I haven't owned one of those. I've owned keyboards by Roland, Korg & Kurzweil but now I'm completely into virtual instruments.

[merry]

I just got a Yamaha M08 for myself. At church, I play a Korg Triton LE, and my new keyboard is sooooo much cooler ;) It's 75 lbs so not easy to move, but I think I'll have to take it to play for at least a few weeks. Much easier to make adjustments on the fly, a fantastic mod wheel and better acoustic piano sounds than the Triton. I checked out Korg and Roland stuff, and preferred the Yamaha layout and sounds.

If your keys player doesn't play organ and pad stuff, then this might not be what you're looking for.

I wanted decent piano sound plus good organ and pads. I paid $1800 for the keyboard with mid-level accessories- pedal, double-x stand, bench, and a guitar gig bag for my son.

I will be sure to mention this incident to people at our church: our building is often open due to being used by a lot of community groups, and the auditorium is widely accessible then. We have thousands of dollars of equipment that isn't that hard to take - pedal boards, amps, keyboard, etc., and several of us have expressed concern about safety. Making a way to lock the auditorium separately from the rest of the building would alleviate that concern.

[matthewfridg]

I use the Yamaha CP300. Excellent stage piano. I have been to several concerts and saw the same piano in use on stage. It has some great sounds included and has on board speakers. LOVE IT!

On sale:
Yamaha CP300 @ KraftMUSIC.com (http://www.kraftmusic.com/catalog/keyboards/88keykeyboards/index.asp?product=5182)

[David Good]

I have to agree with Matthew. I also personally own a Yamaha CP300. I have played Korg Tritons and Kruzweil PCs, Roland Stage Pianos and other Yamaha Pro-level keyboard. I can honestly say that by far the CP300 has the absolute best accoustic grand sound I have ever heard and it feels like you are playing an actual Yamaha Concert Grand piano. I also has fantastic string and electric keyboard sounds and works great when connected to my laptop. It is heavy but I won't play anything else except a real grand anymore.

[efrisch]

Another advocate for the Yamaha boards... Any of the S series, CP series, and even the higher end P series boards are definitely worth your time. They've definitely got the best action and piano sounds, in my experience. I used to have an S08, and we've got a P140 at church... great boards!

[louca]

Did your keyboard player play mostly piano on the previous keyboard? And will this be possibly used by others like a "real" piano? If so, highly consider getting a keyboard with weighted, hammer-action keys. That feel is crucial to those who are coming from a normal acoustic piano world. Be careful because there are a LOT of synthesizers that have rather soft key action. Soft keys are nice for pads and are essential for organ, but are really very bad for decent piano playing.

Also consider getting a good stand for the keyboard: one that is stable, yet allows feet to go underneath comfortably. Mine is a Quiklok WS550 which you can see, along with the S90ES in my profile pictures. There are other good stands, too.

Lou

[phil77]

The Yamaha's are great, but if you could stretch the budget a little bit, you might try looking for a used Nord Stage EX; by far, *the best* unit available, not just my opinion. The samples are second to none, and the Hammond sounds can be better than the real thing. Very useable sounds, and very user-friendly. At least check them out.................

[louca]

you might try looking for a used Nord Stage EX; by far, *the best* unit available ... and the Hammond sounds can be better than the real thing.

Whoa Phil! OK, you pushed my hot button. :D In my opinion, and hundreds of others, there is NO sound of a Hammond that is better than the original Hammond+Leslie. A little known secret is that most of the "Hammond sound" that we all love so well is really attributed to the Leslie. Several clones, including those from Nord (like the C1), have a great synthesized Hammond sound. But unless you put that sound into a real Leslie, or some equivalent, it just won't have "that sound".

When I say "equivalent", I mean either another rotating horn speaker like the Speakeasy Roadbox or those from Motion Sound, OR the brand new simulator called the Ventilator. I have heard people report that the Ventilator (Leslie simulator) is better than ALL clones out there, including the Nords. Some die-hards are even using the Ventilator on gigs instead of a real Leslie, saying it sounds identical to a Leslie. And believe me, I know those people and they are very hard to convince.

I have heard good things about the Nord Stage, but I really don't like it's red color. If you don't mind having a bright red keyboard up there, then it's no big deal. I even put gaff tape over the Yamaha stuff on my S90ES to make it look better.

Lou

[Kilroy]

Sticking to the big three (Roland, Korg, Yamaha) will get you a keyboard that does what you want well. You don't need a full blown workstation like a motif or an M3; stay away from those.

Everybody has their favorites, but the bottom line is any comparable keyboard from the above three companies is going to be serviceable. To me, the most important aspect after that is getting a keyboard that seems intuitive and comfortable to the person who is going to be playing it. You need something with which your keyboard player can move quickly from sound to sound during transitions.

When you go shopping, make sure the store takes you seriously. You need to hook a couple of different keyboards up to the *same* amp and speakers so you can get an apples to apples comparison. Make sure they give you a sustain pedal for each one. If you guys stand up on stage, play it standing up on a stand similar to the one you use. If you play sitting down, then play it sitting down.

Then buy the one that you or your keyboard player keep gravitating toward. That is the one that you are most comfortable with and the one that will inspire you to play well.

Kilroy



Let me start by saying that I am not a keyboard player. I can speak with some resemblance of knowledge about guitar, bass, and drums but when it comes to keys I am clueless. So yesterday I got to church and discovered that a door had been left unlocked and someone got in and stole a couple of our instruments. They took a bass, a guitar amp, and our keyboard (a Kurzweil pc88).

Since the police said the chances of recovering our instruments are slim to none, I'm shopping for a new (or possibly used) keyboard. We have a very talented keyboard player but she has no knowledge as far as what brands and features would be best for our needs. We mainly use a piano sound but at times use organ settings, strings, and pads.

I want the best sound quality and feel possible. With a budget of $2000, what would you recommend?

Also if someone could explain what the difference is between a stage piano, controller, and workstation are, that would be helpful too. Thanks!

[louca]

You need to hook a couple of different keyboards up to the *same* amp and speakers so you can get an apples to apples comparison.

Great advice. Instead of hooking it up to an amp, I would recommend using headphones, since I think all keyboards have a headphone output. Get the store to let you use a pair of good ones in your evaluation. Using headphones will let you hear the sound quite a bit better than through an amp, and will hopefully cut down on room noise. Many, many, amps are not very good at faithful keyboard amplification, especially for piano patches. Headphones will tend to not color and distort the sound like an amp will. And although not important for performance playing through a PA, but maybe more important for recording, they will let you hear in stereo.

Lou

[phil77]

Lou-

And, you are entitled to your opinion, but take notice that I said "CAN BE better than the real thing", which is exactly what we've found to be true. We had a vintage 60's B3 with leslie, and it had "the sound". However, in the interest of ease of movement, maintenance, etc. we picked up the Nord C1. The C1 quickly became the "go to", and we eventually sold the B3 and leslie. It just couldn't compete with the C1 in sound and performance. For a time, we fed the C1 into the leslie, it sounded fine. One weekend the leslie decided to quit on us, we went directly into FOH and it blew the leslie away. There was no comparison. You don't have to agree; I too was one of the "hundreds of others" who believed that a Hammond and leslie was the only way to achieve that great sound. I was quickly proven wrong with the Nord.

And, no, I do not mind having a couple of red instruments on stage (C1 and Stage EX). With the crazy cool-ness of those two pieces, the color simply doesn't matter.

[louca]

Thanks for the reply Phil. Yes, vintage B-3s that have not been refurbished, almost always have issues, some very serious. One of the most common issues is that capacitors tend to change their capacitance as they age and need to be replaced. That alone can make a lousy sound from the ubiquitous B-3. Another thing is a lot of Leslies can suffer from the same problem (bad caps) in their amplifier as well as a weak or blown driver horn.

Capacitors can last 30 to 40 years or so, but then they must be replaced. All the other components are generally good for much longer but the caps are the Achilles heel.

Check out the Ventilator (http://neo-instruments.de/de/ventilator/ventilator-features). Folks I know who have a C1 say they would much rather use the Ventilator than the internal simulator. And these guys are hard to please.

Lou

[phil77]

Our Hammond and leslie were refurb'd and meticulously maintained; that wasn't the issue, except for when the leslie crapped out unexpectedly. We chose to go solely with the C1 because it had "the sound" and didn't require regular maintenance visits from the organ tech. The guys in the band, as well as the pro stage and session players (you've heard of them) we work with on a pretty regular basis love our C1 and do not miss the Hammond and leslie.

[Korg4god]

Let's not forget the Yamaha YPG-635. I currently have 2 of those similar models and love them. I have also been a life long fan of Korg products as well and think you might want to look at the 88-key version of an M50. Lots of great sounds and a way to layer/split/ or velocity switch up to 8 sounds at once if needed.

As far as you Hammond dudes go, I have played keyboards for the last 40 years and done it professionally for the last 20. I actually own an H100 (One of the biggest ones out there) and it's not currently working. I consider it my restoration project. I was able to score a real Leslie, or I should say it is the horn and rotor from a real Leslie that was put in a custom wooden cabinet, but our church sold it's building and we've purchased a new facility but it is no where close to being ready, so we set up and tear down church every week. That real Leslie became a real pain in the.. ummm... back, so I decided to change things around. What I am currently using is a Roland VK-8 module and a Motion Sound speaker and it is probably as close to the real thing as I've found and it is very portable.

Anyway, that;s just my $.02.

J

[Kilroy]

I like to play through amps and speakers when I am at the store because it more closely approximates reality for me. Use headphones, but be prepared for disappointment when it doesn't sound that good on your churches' wedge monitor (or whatever you use).


Great advice. Instead of hooking it up to an amp, I would recommend using headphones, since I think all keyboards have a headphone output. Get the store to let you use a pair of good ones in your evaluation. Using headphones will let you hear the sound quite a bit better than through an amp, and will hopefully cut down on room noise. Many, many, amps are not very good at faithful keyboard amplification, especially for piano patches. Headphones will tend to not color and distort the sound like an amp will. And although not important for performance playing through a PA, but maybe more important for recording, they will let you hear in stereo.

Lou

[efrisch]

Another great option for the B-3 sound is the Voce V5 (http://www.voceinc.com/v5p.html) I don't have one, but one of the other keyboard players who I've worked with quite a bit has it and swears by it (He spent several years playing tours with some major artists, so I definitely take his recommendations seriously!). He plays it through a motion sound cabinet and it sounds spot on. I really enjoyed the little bit of time I had to play with it, as well! They make a rotary simulator, as well, but I've never had a chance to play with it.

[bbrunskill]

I would like to also recommend the Nords.
We have a 76 key Nord Electro 2. While the sounds don't hold up to a real Rhodes or Hammond + Leslie, they fit in the mix well, and the board is light, super easy to program, and has a nice action as well.:p

We are still looking for a second keyboard to complement our new Nord, something with great pads and 'texture' sounds. I like the Korg Triton series for that sort of stuff.