hymns in modern worship

[km7100]

Hey everybody,

Just wondering what hymns you guys have tried using in your worship sets. We've redone a few. I'm just looking to get some more ideas.

Matt

[benson]

If you are looking for contemporary arrangements of hymns, Passion has done a tremendous job at preserving the integrity of the rich hymns while making them playable for the modern praise band. Just last week we did "Jesus Paid It All" as a communion response off of Passion's "Everything Glorious" CD. The congregation really responded. Also, David Crowder does a fabulous version of "Come Thou Fount" that we use.

[MarkSooy]

Ever thought about NOT reworking the hymns (even in your "modern" setting)? I've found that individuals of all ages re-connect with hymns heard in their early years. There can be a sense for many people that there is an "anchor" in those hymns which is not present when constantly challenged with the newer rhythms and melodies.

We are responsible as worship leader/pastors to BOTH draw people to Christ in a comforting way AND challenge them to grow. Music can be a great way to do both.

So, while you're looking for new arrangements of older hymns, think about using them the way they were written as well.

[km7100]

Yes, we've done some hymns the way they were originally written. Mostly during our Sunday morning service. Some are just too technically complicated to pull off the way they were originally done (they weren't written with a worship band in mind). If I tried to do a hymn with 8 chord changes in 2 measures, my band would probably throw their instuments at me.

I'm looking more for some ideas for our 20-30's service. The majority of them didn't grow up in church, so doing a hymn in it's original arrangement isn't all that "re-connecting" for them. In fact it can disconnect them from worship because of the style of the song. On the other hand, we want to give them some sense of history but not lose them in the process. That's why we want to rework the hymns.

Passion has done a great job with the hymns they've done. We've used a couple that they've done. Anyone else have some that they've done?

[Klampert]

I do a ton from the passion hymn CD. and of course classic hymns.

I love doing the hymns without revisions, but I also find that added choruses etc...really drive those words into our heart...
Like Tomlins version of amazing grace...
"my chains are gone I've been set free , my God my savior has ransomed me."
WOW!!!!...that chorus did't ruin the hymn it added to it...It helped my congregation to focus more on Christs sacrifice.

I have done a few lately:
jesus lover of my soul
Heaven came down
How deep the fathers love for us (modern hymn)
Before the throne of god above (modern hymn)

here is a great resource for some hymns with chord charts and mp3's
RUF HYMN LIST (http://igracemusic.com/igracemusic/hymnbook/hymns.html)

[twc_admin]

Hey -
The Passion Hymns are awesome .. I tell ya what else is awesome, is keeping it simple and almost 100% acapella ... try medleying (is that a verb?) OUT of "How Great is our God" (Tomlin) into an acapella chorus of "How Great Thou Art" ... it's breathtaking.

Some of my favorite hymns are:
Come Thou Fount
Blessed Assurance
The Solid Rock (On Christ The Solid Rock I Stand)
I stand Amazed (How Marvelous)
Amazing Grace
How Great Thou Art
Keeps Me Singing (no kidding - with a fast double-time gospel drive on the chorus and full stops on beat 1 of the verse!) ...
THERE's (stop) within my heart a melody ...
JESUS (stop) whisper's sweet and low ...
etc ...
Then, on the chorus .. "jesus, jesus, Jesus, sweetest name I know .." c'mon with that double-time, gospel snare slap on 2 & 4 .. super fast ... it will get some folks excited (and some angry that you could do that to such an old hymn)

[km7100]

We've done How Great Thou Art coming out of How Great is Our God. We do Grace Like Rain quite a bit and The Wonderful Cross. I've done a medley before of Nothing But The Blood, Power In The Blood, and Oh The Blood. I've also done a gospel/bluegrass kinda medley of I Saw The Light, I'll Fly Away, and Standing on the Promises.

[Klampert]

I love I saw the light bluegrass style
I tried grace like rain and everybody hated it...people liked the tomlin amazing grace better

[El Ben]

I agree with whoever posted about not reworking hymns. Some of these old songs are musical wonders. Songs like Amazing Grace and How Great Thou Art are the very definition of the word: timeless.

I'm 22 and very few things can move me as deeply as a classic rendition of "It Is Well With My Soul." I guess it just depends on the needs of your church, though.

[russhutto]

It's hard not to let our personal preferences get in the way when it comes to arranging. Ben hit it on the head though, we should always strive to put the needs of the church first.

I'm a music history/theory/composition geek, so I love MASSIVE orchestral arrangements of anything. ESPECIALLY, hymns! Yet, no one esle arounds me has the same appreciation for what most uneducated (musically) people call "classical" music. So, I have to make sure I'm NOT singing this familiar song which we all get caught up in...

"It's all about ME, Jesus..."

[SaintLewis]

Hey there, 3 of my favorite writers are Bach, Henryk Gorecki, & Arvo Part! I own almost everything Park & Gorecki have written.

[garyhodges]

One of the favorites of my wife and I is when we medly "God of Wonders" into "Holy, Holy, Holy". We added a bridge to "Holy" that goes "Holy, we cry holy" about 6 times and builds back into the last half of the last verse -- "...only Thou art holy, there is none beside Thee..." The chords we use on the bridge are 6-4-1-5.

[Klampert]

Wow gary that sounds great...do you have a recording of that?

[worshiptrench]

Here is a quote from a worship prof "If worship history is a yardstick, the modern church does the last 2 1/2 inches very well." We gotta keep the objective content of the hymns in the mix NOT simply because they are hymns but because:
1. The content is objectively driven and rich.
2. It connects us to the salvation history of the Church. Despite what many think, worship did not start with the Jesus People and Marantha Label.

With that said, we have tons of arrangements that don't change the melody but allow them to fit in our mold. Very eclectic. From a celtic Be Thou My Vision that we linked up to Jesus Be the Centre complete with solo violin to rocked out versions of reformational hymns to some jazz chorded Christmas stuff We'll throw up some arrrangements over a the trench when we get a chance.

[Klampert]

I would love to hear some of your arrangements. Let us know when you throw them up

[garyhodges]

I'll look around for a recording. I may have an old one with our former choir singing it. If not, I'll try and get it recorded next time we do it.

[Klampert]

that would be great gary...thanks

[El Ben]

It's hard not to let our personal preferences get in the way when it comes to arranging. Ben hit it on the head though, we should always strive to put the needs of the church first.

I'm a music history/theory/composition geek, so I love MASSIVE orchestral arrangements of anything. ESPECIALLY, hymns! Yet, no one esle arounds me has the same appreciation for what most uneducated (musically) people call "classical" music. So, I have to make sure I'm NOT singing this familiar song which we all get caught up in...

"It's all about ME, Jesus..."


Much like this. (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XHkMPA1334)

[Klampert]

well i tried to watch it but thats a dead link my friend

[Steve Lowe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XHkMPA1334

Try that link - that's hilarious.

Back to Hymns - The Passion stuff is great, we do a couple of their arrangements. We also do Tomlin's Amazing Grace, My Chains are Gone, and Wonderful Cross. Also, check out the 'Men and Angels Say' CD by Ashley Cleveland, it's one of my favorite.

I, too, love hearing some hymns in traditional arrangements - what I struggle with, though, is attempting to force a hymn right out of the hymnal (ie arranged for piano and/or organ) into a band context. It rarely works well IME.

[Klampert]

ah that link...that is one really funny video. lol

[Alison]

David Crowder has great arrangements of hymns. I've got a couple that I do - My Jesus I Love Thee and Be Thou My Vision...you can check out My Jesus at my indieheaven like below...

Hymns are great redone with a full band, but I also like it when it's a more broken down set - link guitar, light perc and a violin or cello. That mixes the modern with traditional in the instrumentation as well as the arrangement, if that makes sense.

[Stevie Nature]

I've found a great resource for hymns is the RUF hymnbook on igracemusic.com. They have some with the traditional melodies and some with reworked melodies. To be honest, a lot of their stuff is not my first choice musically. It's great for people who were not raised in the church, but would like to be introduced to some of the music of our fathers. They have some fairly well known reworked hymns and some lesser known hymns that you'd be hard pressed to find in the average hymnal. Some of the hymns we do or are planning on doing at our church are

And Can It Be?
It is Well
Whate'er My God Ordains is Right
Oh the Deep, Deep Love of Jesus
Arise, My Soul Arise
Before the Throne of God Above
Amazing Grace
Nothing But the Blood
Come Thou Fount
Be Thou My Vision
Holy, Holy, Holy
At The Cross
Crown Him With Many Crown
Stricken, Smitten, and Afflicted (one of the best hymns ever)
When I Survey
Great Is Thy Faithfulness
How Great Thou Art
Joyful, Joyful
Rock of Ages
The Churces One Foundation
There Is A Fountain

To be honest, I think that much of our modern music does not match up to the beauty and poetry in some of these older hymns. As far as style goes, I've found it fairly easy to keep the original melodies and just eliminate some of the superfluous chords. Some of the melodies I think are best reworked, i.e. And Can It Be? Great words, confusing melody. Well that's my two cents worth.

[free_by_grace]

Yes, we've done some hymns the way they were originally written. Mostly during our Sunday morning service. Some are just too technically complicated to pull off the way they were originally done (they weren't written with a worship band in mind). If I tried to do a hymn with 8 chord changes in 2 measures, my band would probably throw their instuments at me.

I'm looking more for some ideas for our 20-30's service. The majority of them didn't grow up in church, so doing a hymn in it's original arrangement isn't all that "re-connecting" for them. In fact it can disconnect them from worship because of the style of the song. On the other hand, we want to give them some sense of history but not lose them in the process. That's why we want to rework the hymns.

Passion has done a great job with the hymns they've done. We've used a couple that they've done. Anyone else have some that they've done?

I was inspired by Paul Baloche's "God Songs" book that he wrote with Jimmy and Carol Owens. A large portion of the book talks about songwriting, and in one chapter it talks about the lyrical wealth we can find in the old hymns, and I agree with the point that the organ/piano chord transitions of days gone by can just sound terrible when played by a modern worship band.

So does that mean we should not use a modern band, or on the other hand should we not do hymns? I propose that the real question is: Can you re-chart a hymn so that it works well in the modern band sound? Can adding a chorus that fits the song make it more singable to those who have not been exposed to much hymns?

I grew up in a church where the youth group modern choruses were passionate and never touched hymns. I remember going to Saturday prayer sessions at church. While I was thinking and looking for what to pray about or think over I would often open the hymn book and I would be ministered to by the words I was reading. Then I went to a college that actually did involve hymns in the chapel... but they weren't done in a hokey be-bop style. The feel of the songs drew you to worship.

And then the Passion movement hit... and there they were. Songs of past days, presented in a way that the younger generations felt comfortable singing them. Some amazing lyrics are coming back into modern songs that were written many years ago.

Makes me want to open a hymn book and see if I can bring the lyrics of one of those old songs and give it new stylistic life.

One last consideration about hymns of old. Many of them are written with a broad vocal range in mind, and most people these days feel strained trying to sing in such a broad range, but people still want to sing without wearing out their voice. I would rather they sing with less range than refuse to sing because of their limited vocal range.

[El Ben]

That was a great point you brought up at the end (to go with all the other good points you brought up in the beginning and middle :) ) about vocal range. Believe it or not, I went through a stage where I thought I couldn't be a worship leader because my voice wasn't high enough. Even now, I pretty consistently need to bump a song down a key to comfortably sing without straining my voice, especially Tomlin songs.

Something that has always been a source of frustration for me is how high worship songs can get nowadays. I mean, I can stretch my range for limited amounts of time, but straining like that is not good for your voice, especially if you're on song two of a four-song set. I'm really jealous of people who can sing really high without much effort (Shannon Lewis, thank you very much).

Just the sad confessions of a pitiful little baritone in a tenor's world.

[km7100]

I'm right there with you Ben. I don't think there's been a Tomlin song yet that I can sing in the original key.

[Stevie Nature]

The thing that gets me about Tomlin is sometimes his range. On "You Never Let Go" the verses are fairly low and the prechorus and chorus are pretty high. Because there's such a jump, for the first couple of times I sang the song, when I back to the verse from the chorus I'd hit something that was not quite a harmony, definitely not the melody, and sounded terrible. Thank God for practice. Great song though.

Also, about the range of some hymns. I've found that when they've got some ridiculous range to them we will often rework the melody. No need to lose some of the these powerful, poetic, and Scriptural word because we don't have a great range.

[km7100]

A problem we run into doing some songs is that the range between where the verses are sung and where the chorus is sung is so wide that it makes finding a suitable key hard. If you do it in a key where you can sing the chorus, it makes the verse to low. If you do it in a key where you can sing the verse, the chorus is too high.

[MarkSooy]

Here is a quote from a worship prof "If worship history is a yardstick, the modern church does the last 2 1/2 inches very well." We gotta keep the objective content of the hymns in the mix NOT simply because they are hymns but because:
1. The content is objectively driven and rich.
2. It connects us to the salvation history of the Church. Despite what many think, worship did not start with the Jesus People and Marantha Label.


Isn't it interesting how so many recording artists are "re-discovering" hymnody? Balance, no matter what setting you are in, is always a good policy.

[tony c]

Ben, you said that you couldn't be a worship leader because your voice wasn't high enough??? Your church must have been blessed with a plethora of vocalists!

You always have to look at the range of a song (especially on the HIGH end). If the worship team can just about hit the high end, and we're supposed to have the "good" voices, can you imagine how the average person in the congregation will do if they tried to sing the part, "Name above all Names, Worthy of all praise ...". Fortunately, they don't try that part, they sing the normal chorus, and let the WL handle that part.

What I'm saying is thay bumping down (or up) the key is something we always have to consider, such that there are no impediments to the congregation worshipping.

If you can't find a range where the lows are too low and the highs are too high, maybe you should just leave that song out. Or do it as an instrumental walk-in song, or if it's a worship song, play it instrumentally during communion or offering.

[SaintLewis]

Isn't it interesting how so many recording artists are "re-discovering" hymnody? Balance, no matter what setting you are in, is always a good policy.

Amen and PRAISE THE LORD, for it! I personally disliked much of the overly simplistic modern praise & worship from the late 70's & 80's (& even early 90's), which is probably why I was drawn to a more 'traditional' church (well, musically, it was traditional) for several years.

p.s. - Mark, your books look VERY interesting. I hope to check them out soon.

blessings,

shannon

[stephen_can_man]

I have to say, I am 26 and I really can't stand hymns, original or redone. It's just my opinion, but, I talk with lots of people my age and the whole emerging movement it seems is just for angst teens and emotional artsy types, which really is a minority of the population of young people. I'll take a good rock song over a hymn any day. As far as the descriptive language of hymns, what good is a description that can't be understood...bulwarks and ebenezzars and sheaves...what the heck? The fact of our culture is this: we are less educated than we used to be. As soon as I graduated from college and started in an Advertising agency, the first thing they said was "dumb it up!" In other words, I was using language that was over the audience's heads. They told me to write on a 6th grade level. 6th grade! I know a lot of the people who have been in church forever like the hymns and redoing them, but to me (and most of the people my age that I talk to) think that they suck. Sorry to be so critical, and I don't want to steal wind from your sails, but if you are trying to, or going to reach a younger generation, I would say leave the old stuff out. I havent conducted any formal surveys, but I have lived and led worship in 800+ attendance churches in Arkansas, Michigan, Texas and Florida; so I get a lot of exposure. Anyway, enough of my rant, good luck redoing them, I don't have much advise in that area...

[SaintLewis]

Now, I'm no 'famous' worship leader, but I have been around a little: I've led and/or been on the worship team at multiple campus ministries (Campus Crusade for Christ, Navigators, Chi Alpha, Lutheran Campus Ministries, Worldwide Discipleship Association, & Christian Campus Fellowship), and 3 or 4 different college campus - both in the North and the Southern USA, as well as led worship for youth and adults are local churches in my current area, and my experience has been, almost across the board, that most youth & college students everywhere I've led respond incredibly well to modernized - and often even traditional -hymns. They, nearly without fail (meaning: I can't think of a single time it's not 'worked', but I'm sure it's possible) seem to connect deeply with those generations, to the point where I almost consider a modernized hymn a "get out of jail free card" when a worship service is struggling - when it I find that the congregation is slipping and not entirely engaged, pull out and old hymn and viola - the voices triple in volume, and everyone is passionately singing to God. I guess that's just to say, I can't relate to your experience very well, as I've very rarely heard someone say that they dislike hymns across the board. It just seems like the great hymns are subconsciously engrained in our collective cultural mind, so to speak. That's not to say I don't love new material, and modern worship, but that hymns are a very effective cross-generational too, be-it in the 'emerging church', or anyplace else for that matter.


I have to say, I am 26 and I really can't stand hymns, original or redone. It's just my opinion, but, I talk with lots of people my age and the whole emerging movement it seems is just for angst teens and emotional artsy types, which really is a minority of the population of young people. I'll take a good rock song over a hymn any day. As far as the descriptive language of hymns, what good is a description that can't be understood...bulwarks and ebenezzars and sheaves...what the heck? The fact of our culture is this: we are less educated than we used to be. As soon as I graduated from college and started in an Advertising agency, the first thing they said was "dumb it up!" In other words, I was using language that was over the audience's heads. They told me to write on a 6th grade level. 6th grade! I know a lot of the people who have been in church forever like the hymns and redoing them, but to me (and most of the people my age that I talk to) think that they suck. Sorry to be so critical, and I don't want to steal wind from your sails, but if you are trying to, or going to reach a younger generation, I would say leave the old stuff out. I havent conducted any formal surveys, but I have lived and led worship in 800+ attendance churches in Arkansas, Michigan, Texas and Florida; so I get a lot of exposure. Anyway, enough of my rant, good luck redoing them, I don't have much advise in that area...

[Stevie Nature]

bulwarks and ebenezzars and sheaves...what the heck?

Ebenezer is found at least 3 times in 1 Sam. To be perfectly honest, I don't think that Biblical illiteracy is a reason to throw a song out. If the wording of a song makes it somewhat difficult for our congregation to understand we teach them. I've found the members of my church appreciate this. After all if we're not growing at church then what's the point?

[free_by_grace]

...As far as the descriptive language of hymns, what good is a description that can't be understood...bulwarks and ebenezzars and sheaves...what the heck?...
You make a great point. I have become a fan of some of these modernized hymns, but there still are some "King James" words that show a song's age. Sure, some of these complex words might rhyme better or have more rhythmic depth, but how will a person who hasn't grown up in church catch what is being said in a song when they can't understand the words?

Have you ever considered this: Latin was not spoken in Adam's, David's or Jesus' time... so why should we esteem words like "thee", "thou", "verily" and "shouldst"? They might just get in the way of somebody getting the message.

I believe old hymns can be redone with appropriate non-archaic words and still get their poetic beauty and lyrical wealth across... though there are some exceptions.

[twc_admin]

yeah, I'll chime in and say I agree about "teaching" .. I'm not a fan of singing (or leading) something that either I don't understand lyrically, or that i feel most of the folks in the congregation don't know (or understand). As a matter of fact, it wasn't until I heard the "story" behind the song "The Heart of Worship" that I really appreciated the song - I just didn't understand lines like "I'm sorry for the thing I've made it", etc.

Taking a moment and explaining a phrase or term used in the older hymns can breathe live to something that otherwise may just be religious repetition of something with no true meaning to the worshiper.

[El Ben]

*lifts head up from the trenches and dusts himself off*

Wow, I was expecting all out war as soon as I heard the words:

I have to say, I am 26 and I really can't stand hymns, original or redone....

That was relatively pain-free.

[russhutto]

I think I'm with the "balance is better" crowd when it comes to this topic. Find a good hymn and sing one or 2 stanzas. Most great hymns have at least 1 or 2 stanzas that are easily understood and easy to remember.

Problem is when we try to sing an 8 stanza hymn. By the time we get to the 8th verse, we forget what we sang the first time around. Should we challenge our people by exposing them to and teaching them with hymns? YES!! Should we bore them by singing too many? No.

Personally, I've changed words in hymns to bring them up to date. Not all of them, and not even a majority of them. But maybe some of the "Thees", "Thines", and "Thous" - it's not hard to take an older song and contemporize (is that a word?) it. We've done it with our Bible translations, why not with hymns?

Bottom line: you can't throw them out. You can't do only hymns. If you are on either end of the spectrum you are probably in a state of unbalance. If your congregation is healthy, it will be made up of older, younger, and everything in between. You can't always play rock songs.

[stephen_can_man]

Yeah, I realize that there is a high degree of subjectivity relating to the use of hymns. My personal opinion (ie hating hymns) shouldn't affect how others choose to lead worship, I just wanted throw how I felt in the mix. The main point I was making was that music is a tool that we use to communicate to/with God and to/with others and the language/style that we use is critical to that communication and it's effectiveness. I just want people to remember that as a worship leader we are servants to the people we lead, and knowing that is helpful. In my church we are very seeker conscious, so we are extremely conscious of who is listening and how they are connecting. Many times I am frustrated with what songs we choose as a team, mainly because a lot of songs I like get the boot...but it is for the kingdom's sake.

[Klampert]

that is the thing to remember as a worship leader...choose songs based on relevance not because you like it. It isnt' about us

[Klampert]

side note...anybody doing gateway worships come thou fount come thou king?
it's killer

[russhutto]

Right on, Stephen. I understand where you're coming from.

Most of my experience comes from a "norma" non-denom church...but...

For the last year I've been in a situation that is probably more similar to yours. We haven't done a single hymn in our REGULAR outsider-targetted service. BUT we do hold periodic special times of worship where we'll intentionally add an old chorus or hymn to the mix to introduce and expose our people to some of the rich heritage of those that came before us. It's not mandatory, but it is a neat experience. Thanks for your persepective.

[free_by_grace]

side note...anybody doing gateway worships come thou fount come thou king?
it's killer

We actually have done Come Thou Fount Come Thou King a few times in the past couple months. It's a great chorus... but the word "thou" still bugs me. It's a word used in King James, but it doesn't have as much relevance to modern speech or song.

[Stevie Nature]

We actually have done Come Thou Fount Come Thou King a few times in the past couple months. It's a great chorus... but the word "thou" still bugs me. It's a word used in King James, but it doesn't have as much relevance to modern speech or song.

Just a point of correction. The King James was finished in 1611, and "Come Thou Fount" was written in 1758, so there's like 150 years difference there. James was just a king who commissioned an English translation of the Bible. This type of English is usually called Elizabethan or early modern English.

On a different note, I don't get why "thou" would bug you. I really can't think of anyone I know who wouldn't know what it means. It's a piece of history. It speaks just as clearly today as it did 250 years ago. I think we have to be careful not to be influenced by our disposable culture here in America that tells us that if something is old, thrown it out a get a new one. Something doesn't even have to be broken nowadays, just not shiny anymore.
The Bible speaks quite a bit about passing our knowledge of God from generation to generation. "One generation shall commend your works to another, and shall declare your mighty acts." Ps. 145:4, just to name one. (It's not just a Shane and Shane song, it's also in the Bible.) These hymns, left by our fathers in the faith, are testimonies to God continued work from generation to generation, and should not be thrown out, nor viewed in a bad light at all.