I've always wondered....

[WorshipFocus]

Why do folks hang so tightly to the idea of "traditional worship" but if you tried to use a black and white TV in their Sunday School class and called it "traditional tv" they wouldn't stand for it?

or... Why do people hang so tightly to the idea of "traditional worship" but if you "We aren't going to use the air conditioners this Sunday because we want to be reminded of when we were growing up in the church"... why would they not all of the sudden want to be "traditionalists"?

or... what if we just moved out of the new worship center back into the old white church with hard wooden pews? (honestly, I know some would do it in a heart beat haha)

or.... i mean if we really want to be traditional, lets remove all the lighting from the church and use candels?

or... why pave the parking lot. They used to park on the grass or a dirt lot.

or... The pastor don't need a cell phone so you can reach him with your problems at any given time 24 hours a day.... let's be traditional and ride a horse to his house like little house on the prarie.


Why are we picking and choosing what we want to be traditional? Is it because we only want it to be "traditional" so long as it doesn't inconvenience or burden us. It's too much of a burden to learn or accept new music, but it would burden us too much to have to sit in an non-air conditioned building.

You have to ask yourself the question... Do I prefer traditional music because I would rather not spend the time learning new songs. I mean, I would prefer to use more of the money in the church treasury to support the underpaid music director who is probablly doing it for free or being kept on staff by a string (bi-vocational). We could take out the air contitioners and use the money we save on electricity to support the music pastor and their family... or use it for missions. Why don't people prefer that? Because it would inconvenience them right? Isn't that really why we choose to do stuff?
It's uncomfortable to try new music... for some... its uncomfortable to not have air, or lights, or a paved parking lot, or whatever. Let's get real.

BTW... I like hymns and even gregorian chant for that matter.... but it concerns me more and more why people pick and choose what they want to remain traditional and what they dont. I can think of a lot of BIBLICAL reasons to be so traditional as to not have a TV in my house but I doubt very many traditionalists would give up their TV as quickly as they would give up Contemporary music.

Thought?

[Rahel]

This reminds me of a discussion we had lately why we are eager to keep some of the laws while we would never keep some others even though they are written in the same chapter of a book....

I think we are fast in simply choosing what is convenient to us, no matter what it is about.

[LoriBiddle]

FEAR! I truly think they are scared to change...

I think in today's society Christians see such a mess that they think what sets them apart is to hold on to "Christian" traditions. This in their minds separates them from embracing anything they associate in their minds with contemporary society. What they end up sacrificing are the unchurched.

When someone is lost and out in the world, what kind of music do you think they are most familiar with? Anything contemporary and many different styles of music.

To me, to be brutally honest, I think congregations that refuse to change are just scared that the outside will come in. I could have sworn that is what Christ commanded us to do...bring them in...

[Robinskeys]

All I have to say on this subject is I AGREE!!!!! ... oh... and... :D

[TruePraise]

Fear and Preference and Possession.

They don't want to look too much like the world, at least at church.....and they like what they like, thank you very much....and if you come to their church then you better like what they like and do it the way they do it....

"Their church"...that is probably the key right there.

[kmckenzie]

I’ve watched a few threads around here but have not felt the need to reply to any till now (and I apologize for the length.)

I gotta say, I probably would have written something very similar to what I've read 10-15 years ago. But, I don't think that I can now. Comparing music and music styles used in a corporate worship setting to a tv, air conditioner or a paved parking lot is, no offence, quite simplistic.

You're talking about items that are common place in our society. They have been for a very long time. There is a far more emotional connection to music; and when I say music I'm not just talking about music is a worship context but in concerts, radio and recordings as well. Research says that a person's preferences in musical style are pretty much set by the time they are 20-25 years old. And that's not just church people but all of society. That doesn’t mean that a person simply quits listening to anything new, but the general feeling of what they “like to hear” stays pretty consistent. While I hate to draw a line between ‘the world’ and ‘the church’, I have to say ‘the world’ understands this. This is why there are radio stations with oldies, classic rock, disco, 80’s rock, pop, etc, etc, etc…

Personally as a worship pastor I am always listening to new music. I try to incorporate new, fresh material as much as I can. That said, I don’t always like all of the new material I listen to. It’s just how it is.

These brothers and sisters in Christ that you seem to be so bothered with are not listening to the latest pop music in their cars, why do you expect them to have any sort of emotional connection to the newest worship style? I just ain’t gonna happen and they shouldn’t be criticized for it.

The idea that they are too lazy to learn new songs is also questionable. I have personally found a great receptiveness to newer music as long as it is similar stylistically to what they find familiar- things like the new hymns being writing by Keith Getty.

Now obviously there are going to be other issues at play and much more that could written but, that’s for another day.

blessings.

[TruePraise]

You make some very good points. The problem comes when they become so vocal and hard to live with, that they shut down progress in the church and you start losing the younger generation because they want church the way they want it and think is right, with no wiggle room allowed.

[kmckenzie]

agreed...

but those issues run far deeper and are far more distructive than just talking about musical styles. While musical style might be a tangible issue that people can see, what you describe is much more of a heart issue (and an issue that rarely has a happy ending, unfortunately.)

[TruePraise]

That is so very true, and I have to watch my own heart issue as our church works through this right now. If you look in the post I did called Vision Casting, i mention some of the stuff we are still dealing with....it is sad....we are weary and tired of the fight....but fight on we must, and the thing to remember is that we are not fighting against people, not really....but the enemy who will use this stuff to shut us down.

[way2tyred]

You make some very good points. The problem comes when they become so vocal and hard to live with, that they shut down progress in the church and you start losing the younger generation because they want church the way they want it and think is right, with no wiggle room allowed.

OTOH, you can often change this paragraph around say the same thing of the "contemporary pushers" (for lack of better terminology). People who enjoy and worship with traditional music often feel that they are the ones being pushed and that their generation is being lost because the younger generation wants church the way they want it and think is right.

[WorshipFocus]

Very True. Can't we all just get along? LOL

"Young whipersnappers comin' in here changing OUR church. Who do they think they are!"

It's funny because I have experienced this at a church before. They want and LOVE a youth department until they hit 19, 20, 21 and start having opinions and begin blooming into young vocal leaders who make themselves heard. They can't (at that point) be talked to like children or made to hush. You can't threaten them with "no youth trip" this summer if you all keep complaining about the cookies. They actually vote at business meetings and serve in some very important positions within different ministries.

Often times its a power struggle. Giving some of it up to people you once taught in Sunday school cant be a good idea can it? LOL.

[louca]

When someone is lost and out in the world, what kind of music do you think they are most familiar with? Anything contemporary and many different styles of music.

While I definitely agree with playing the kind of music they are most familiar with, I do not think that is ALWAYS what they are looking for at church. My brother in law is a good example of someone who came out of a sinful rock-n-roll lifestyle and was looking for an alternative to the life he knew. He was more radical than most as he, to this day, detests any rock music or even music with drums in it (he used to play the drums).

Obviously, my brother in law is atypical. But I think some seekers want to see the church as somewhat bucking the trend of society. I realize that playing music familiar to non-believers can keep from turning them away (at first), and it is a good way to gradually introduce them to Christ. And don't get me wrong, I am ALL FOR THAT.

Folks here have raised great points regarding resistance to going traditional. Whenever this subject comes up, I can't help but wonder how the songs of traditional hymn writers hit the congregations of their day. Were they old and stuffy back then? Or did they sound modern and edgy? I think probably the latter. I know there are probably historians here that know the answer to that. Can you just imagine the day when congregations see Tomlin and Redman songs as stuffy, old fashioned, and "traditional"? :eek:

Lou

[tlhartsfield]

Whenever this subject comes up, I can't help but wonder how the songs of traditional hymn writers hit the congregations of their day. Were they old and stuffy back then? Or did they sound modern and edgy? I think probably the latter. I know there are probably historians here that know the answer to that. Can you just imagine the day when congregations see Tomlin and Redman songs as stuffy, old fashioned, and "traditional"?

Very true. It's funny to me to hear people say they kicked it up Old Skool with "Shine, Jesus, Shine."

[TruePraise]

well, if I remember what I have been told....many of our hymns have music that used to be drinking songs, because they were tunes that many people would recognize.


OTOH, you can often change this paragraph around say the same thing of the "contemporary pushers" (for lack of better terminology). People who enjoy and worship with traditional music often feel that they are the ones being pushed and that their generation is being lost because the younger generation wants church the way they want it and think is right

You know, that is very true, but as respectfully as I can, I would ask...who is the future of the church? who is going to be around in the next 20 years to carry on the heritage and gospel and the good works? If we dont reach out to the next generation, if we dont let them experience worship in a way that is meaningful to them, if we dont give them enviroments where they would feel comfortable bringing their unsaved friends, then we will lose a generation to other churches who will.

Trust me, I know what I am talking about. Our church has lost an entire generation because the older and very traditional folks have refused to allow significant change. Our children's department now consist of 2 infants, 1 15 month old, 2 five year olds, 1 six year old, 1 first grader, 1 third grader, and about 4 sporadically visiting children under the age of 10. The infants come with their moms, the 18 month old and 5 year olds come with their grandparents. (we had a thriving children's department of 30 plus children when we started attending, but those kids have grown up and not been "replaced" as families have simply given up on our church making any significant changes)

The Youth group is full of the youngest children (now mostly jr and sr high) of families who have been there for years, the 19 - 50 year age bracket consist of about 5 families, the 50+ bracket consist of the rest of our families (about 30). Because our church refused to change, and reflect the culture around them we lost 17 families (about 2 years ago in a huge mess), almost the entirety of our work force and the ones who would be bringing in their friends and their children's friends.

Older people need to remember what it was like 30 years ago, when they were on the cutting edge and doing what worked to meet their generation for Jesus and bring them into body life! And they need to realize that they are an important part of the church body, but they are not it's future. My own son, 19 has gone to another congregation because we could not offer him what he needed to grow and thrive, and he is not the only one. Our college kids are not coming back and settling here, our church is dieing and our older population does not get it. Their sunday school classes, and their activities go on without a hiccup, while the children and family ministries are almost non resistant. They need to remember that different and uncomfortable does not equal bad and wrong.

I'm, sorry, I don't meant to rant, but I am so tired and weary and frustrated with our current situation....things are improving, but it is so slow and painstaking that our pastors recent warning needs to be listened too. Sigh...if we don't do something, if we don't let the Spirit lead and then have the courage to do what He says, our church will not exist in 20 years, or less.

[russhutto]

I'm not saying that the old "bar song" addage isn't true but....

More than likely it actually has to do with hymn writers using the bar "form" of music. It's an actual form that follows the AAB pattern. It's kind of a carry over from the Medieval Bar form in poetry. Luther used it in his chorales. And many hymn writers would follow suit.

That's NOT to say that you can't take lyrics and put them to popular music. That was also a common practice, but as a Music History and Theory nerd, I just want to point out that a lot of people commonly use the ol' "bar tune" (drinking song) line of thought when it comes to justifying contemporary music, and probably (notice I say probably) that isn't entirely accurate.

Carry on.

[Smitty]

This VERY issue is the biggest stumbling block I encounter as a worship consultant...surprised? Don't be...I wasn't.

If you really want to know which is the better road to take...ask yourself this simple question...or better yet, ask it of all the hard liners you may encounter...

"When you drive, do you drive by looking in the rear view mirror, or by looking IN FRONT OF YOU?"

Smitty

[TruePraise]

Russ, that may be true, and I am certainly no expert, but our pastor used some examples in a sermon series on worship a while back and actually sang one of the bar songs in church to prove his point. I think they really used bar tunes sometimes.

Now, I certainly understand that some folks have a problem with that, and I personally don't like using old "secular" tunes and adding christian meaning, but that is because I grew up listening to secular music and just have a hard time getting the old lyrics out (many that are really icky) and the new lyrics in, however I don't think it is wrong for people to do so and would never tell someone that they could not or that it was somehow evil.

Smitty, I am not surprised, just saddened. And I told my husband, I refuse to be one of those older people sitting on the back row all grumpy and whiny cause the service is not how I like it. If the church is full, and young people are coming and meeting Jesus and growing in Him and bringing others, then unless it goes against scripture, I am not going to be hard to live with! ;)

[tlhartsfield]

30 years ago, my church was singing from a hymnal that had a mere handful of songs written after 1950. It never occurred to me as a teenager then to sing anything else. Nearly a third of the people sitting in the pews were under 25 (probably under 20).

The culture shift that is aging many of our churches is not due to mere music style.

Not all 20-somethings are interested in contemporary music for worship. Some will say that it's mere posing, and lacks authenticity. Yes, we should look forward, but we should have a clear understanding of where we've been. Check out Red Mountain Church (http://www.redmountainchurch.org/rmm/) (I have no affiliation with them, btw...) to see what else is happening in church music.

[way2tyred]

Smitty, I am not surprised, just saddened. And I told my husband, I refuse to be one of those older people sitting on the back row all grumpy and whiny cause the service is not how I like it. If the church is full, and young people are coming and meeting Jesus and growing in Him and bringing others, then unless it goes against scripture, I am not going to be hard to live with!

I understand what you're saying. But if we were all doing our job harvesting and raising up mature believers (on both sides of the age bracket) this wouldn't be an issue. But then again, (IMO) that goes back to the "food court" mentality.

[TruePraise]

Here is the thing. I know it is not about music style, but that is just the place it shows up the loudest. I get tired of hearing...you can't cause...

Can't do 2 services cause that will split the church and the older people will never see the younger people, and the younger people need the older people and the older people need the younger people...

Can't have coffee and tables in the worship center during the service because that is disrespectful and rude and it not conducive to a worshipful environment...

Can't wear jeans on stage because that is not showing respect for the church and God and the people in the church, did the rules about what you can wear on stage change?.....

Can't have the music loud or sound too much like the world cause we are supposed to be separate from the world you know...

Can't have a casual atmosphere because you can not really be reverent and meet God in that kind of atmosphere....

Can't sit on a stool and preach without a pulpit cause that is not church you know, when is that preacher going to get back behind that pulpit and preach? ....

Can't do something other than prayer meeting on Wednesday night, cause the church needs prayer....

Can't call the worship center the worship center, because it is the Sanctuary you know...

See my point? It is not the music, it is saturated throughout the attitudes of country club Christians who want everyone to come in and do church their way, cause it is the way, and if you are going to do church you better do it this way.....Oh, those people at X church can do what they want, What, they are growing? Oh, they do <fill in the blank>, That is great, but not in my church".....

Sigh...I'm sorry, I don't mean to go on and on...but this stuff just makes me tired.....Thankfully we have a wise pastor who is a man of prayer and only moves when he believes God is leading him.....and is willing to do what He says, regardless of the fallout, with grace and humility and love....We could all take a lesson.

[TruePraise]

One of the hardest parts for me, is that these are good, well meaning believers, who love God and want others to know Him too, they are just stuck....

[way2tyred]

LOL, I pretty much agree with all of those "can't 'cause".

Honestly, I it's incorrect to say that churches that don't go contemporary can't and won't grow. We are all colored by the area in which we live, by the culture that surrounds us, by our demographic. In my neck of the woods, conservative, traditional, even family integrated, churches see as much growth as contemporary "relevant" churches. If they are both centered on solid Biblical teaching and discipleship and prayer.

[Rahel]

...and love.:)

[TruePraise]

You know, I think I am just tired.

I have heard folks say "I love God, and I love Jesus, but the organized church not so much". I think I kind of understand where they are coming from.

[Rahel]

Hahahahaha...this is kind of funny....right in this momoent while preparing a unti about church for a cell group, I read a verse of Hebrews (6,10) that says that the people showed the love to His name by serving the saints.

[TruePraise]

Well, I led music iwth the kids tonight, and it was just what i needed! We did 4 non stop keep on moving jump up and down and shout songs! Whew! Nothing better for the mind, spirit and body (though my back and legs will be feeling it tomorrow).

[TruePraise]

Am trying to keep my perspective right as we work through our issues at church. Our Pastor is a pretty incredible man, and our elders are too. Leading my example.

[fmckinnon]

Here's where I chime in and say "if you haven't done so - you should really read this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/078522601X?ie=UTF8&tag=highestpraisepro&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=078522601X)" ....

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sl7%2BnFCgL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/078522601X?ie=UTF8&tag=highestpraisepro&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=078522601X)

[TruePraise]

looks good. all i know is i am just tired today, inside and out.

I did go ahead and order the book from amazon, used. :-) The first part that i was able to read online does sound very familiar. The elders met last night...it was a good meeting, according to my husband. We have a fantastic pastor and should consider ourselves blessed beyond what we deserve.

[TruePraise]

Ok, so I am reading the book that Fred suggested. It is a good read, but I am not totally convinced it is a work of Fiction! The sitautions are just too real and sound too familiar. ;-)

[fmckinnon]

exactly ....