Worshiping prophetically

[Rahel]

While I was going through some pages of the book "Manifest Presence" I came acorss this scripture:

2.Chronicle 25
1 David, together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. Here is the list of the men who performed this service: 2 From the sons of Asaph: Zaccur, Joseph, Nethaniah and Asarelah. The sons of Asaph were under the supervision of Asaph, who prophesied under the king's supervision. 3 As for Jeduthun, from his sons: Gedaliah, Zeri, Jeshaiah, Shimei, Hashabiah and Mattithiah, six in all, under the supervision of their father Jeduthun, who prophesied, using the harp in thanking and praising the LORD. 4 As for Heman, from his sons: Bukkiah, Mattaniah, Uzziel, Shubael and Jerimoth; Hananiah, Hanani, Eliathah, Giddalti and Romamti-Ezer; Joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir and Mahazioth. 5 All these were sons of Heman the king's seer. They were given to him through the promises of God to exalt him. God gave Heman fourteen sons and three daughters. 6 All these men were under the supervision of their fathers for the music of the temple of the LORD, with cymbals, lyres and harps, for the ministry at the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun and Heman were under the supervision of the king. 7 Along with their relatives- all of them trained and skilled in music for the LORD- they numbered 288. 8 Young and old alike, teacher as well as student, cast lots for their duties.

What do You think is this prophesying?
The people weren't called to simply make nice music, they were called to prophecy, using this or that instrument.
Where do we find this in today's worship culture? What does it mean? What do You think? How do You understand this?

[Connie S]

Hi - Love your question... no, we don't see near enough of prophetic worship in most circles, it does happen and it is wonderful. If you are interested in learning more about it, I would suggest getting the minstral series from Ray Hughes' "Selah Ministries". It is like a 12 disk series on worship - amazing. Ray is a theologian and musicologist...

Hope you find the answers you're searching for!

Connie

-----
Voice of Hope Ministries
www.voiceofhopeministries.com

[yod1948]

The modern definition of "prophecy" is not alway related to the biblical one.

It's not more complicated than this: a PRIEST represents the people to God and a PROPHET represents God to the people.

Remember when Saul (the King) was "found among the prophets"? He was simply speaking and declaring the Word of God which was something he wasn't known to do.

In the case you mention, they aren't necessarily speaking of something to come in future. They are most likely just speaking the Word of God to the people. I believe at this particular point in history there was only ONE copy of the Word of God and it was stored in the Temple and only read once a year. So there was a definite need for the Word of God to be proclaimed by the Levites and the musicians and that was "prophesying"

Whenever we speak what the Lord would say whether we are witnessing or making declarations or proclaiming His promises, THAT is prophecying according to the biblical definition.

Yes, sometimes prophecy is speaking things that are yet to come but there is no requirement of an utterance being futuristic to be prophetic.

[psalmsandhymns]

As followers of Jesus, we look to him as our ultimate Prophet, Priest and King.

As our prophet, Jesus reveals to us by his Word and by the Holy Spirit the will of God for our salvation. (Westminster Shorter Catechism, Question 24.)

So, the prophetic aspect of our worship means hearing the full counsel of God given to us in the Gospel. It means hearing the call to continual repentance and faith in Jesus. It means being encouraged to die to ourselves and live to Christ. It means being convicted of sin.

That's got to be the starting point.

[Rahel]

I have the same view as yod about the prophetic ministry. Don Potter once said that the prophet (prophetic ministry/prophetic worship) calls the people back to God. This definition was very helpful.
I either do not believe that prophetic means always things of the future. It's rather the word that God wants to release in that moment to call his people to him. And as You, yod, said this can be by everything, by witnessing, declaration, proclaimed promises, etc...that's true.

Do You think that spontaneous worship is equal with prophetic worship?

[russhutto]

No. I do not believe spontaneous = prophetic.

That's what's kind of happened in charismatic circles though. We have limited God's speaking to us to those times of "free" or "spontaneous worship, when in all actuality God is speaking to us every second of every day.

Sure, God uses people, circumstances, Scripture, even nature to show us attributes about Himself. There are times when He speaks especially to our hearts in a way that is specifically for a group of people or an individual.

I think if we take a view of "prophecy" similar to what yod and psalmsandhymns posted about, we are more likely to realize that prophetic worship is really and truly ANY worship that draws us towards God. Songs that sing about God and His goodness are prophetic. And the person singing them is worshiping prophetically, because they are representing God to those around them.

Prophetic worship (imho) is a lot broader than any "style" or form of music. Just because people start waving warrior banners and dance like hippies to unplanned music progressions does NOT classify it as prophetic.

Prophetic worship = worship that calls and points people towards the qualitites of God (which we know leads to repentance)...in the same way that the OT prophets called and pointed the people towards God.

[yod1948]

A song like "Lord, We Lift Your Name On High" is priestly (representing the people to God)

A song like "You Shall Be Holy As I Am Holy" is prophetic (representing God to the People)


So even spontaneously spoken (or sang) words can be either priestly or prophetic.

If I start singing "we want to see Your face" it is priestly...but "Be strong in the Lord" would be prophetic.

[russhutto]

What he said :P

[fmckinnon]

Here's my question ... I've often heard (and even used) the concept that they were prophesying with their instruments ... as in ... not words, but instrumental "prophesy" ...

I remember on the old "Lift Him Up" by Ron Kenoly, he says on the song "Ancient of Days" during an instrumental solo jam, "O Prophesy" to Alex Acuna, who then plays a diddy on the flute.

Was he "prophesying"?

When they say "prophesy" with the tambourine - is the instrument serving as an accompanying device to verbal/vocal prophesy, or can you "prophesy" instrumentally?

[yod1948]

Here's my question ... I've often heard (and even used) the concept that they were prophesying with their instruments ... as in ... not words, but instrumental "prophesy" ...

I remember on the old "Lift Him Up" by Ron Kenoly, he says on the song "Ancient of Days" during an instrumental solo jam, "O Prophesy" to Alex Acuna, who then plays a diddy on the flute.

Was he "prophesying"?

When they say "prophesy" with the tambourine - is the instrument serving as an accompanying device to verbal/vocal prophesy, or can you "prophesy" instrumentally?


Doesn't Alex Acuna play percussion?

This is a great point. I've used that phrase a few times when it was time for a solo also. In my opinion, it's just a way of metaphorically saying "make that instrument speak"

[Rahel]

First...thanks for all the answers...it is very much what I thought too.

For my opinion of the last question...
I believe that music has the power to touch people anyway. I believe it is part of the nature of music. Otherwise people would not associate so much with music, also with secular music. Somehow it talks. And most of the time people react on the style of music if they like it or not. I do not belive that very much people listen first of all to the lyrics, but to the kind of music.

And so I believe that music that is under the control of the Spirit of God will talk too and has the power to draw people to God. I believe that God uses music to reveal something of himself....his love...his grace...his power...whatever. In the same way like we can use music to express something before God and make something beautiful to God, God can use the music either to touch the hearts of people.

[fmckinnon]

Yod -
You are right, wrong player - it was Justo Amario ... but can't that be VERY misleading ... to use "prophetic" as a "metaphor"?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not really convinced that it CANNOT be prophesy ... musical interludes have "spoken" to me before in ways words couldn't have ... but I don't know if the musical interlude just provided a medium where I could hear God's voice and see His truth, or if God uses the instrumental sound TO prophetically say it ... wild, eh?

[russhutto]

Technically an instrument cannot speak. And the technical definitions of prophesy include "to speak."

Metaphorically, I get what you're saying yod.

That being said, I do believe God uses music as a conduit to touch and speak to our hearts. But the music itself (IMHO) is not prophesying, nor is the musician (if they are not speaking or singing)...it's God speaking...or more specifically the Spirit of God speaking to us.

When prophesying occurs in the Bible, it is usually spoken (and in some cases sung) so we know that music can be tied to prophecy, but the music itself is not prophecy. Is it? How can it be?

Like I said, music in a Biblical sense is a conduit through which we speak about God to others, speak to God, and that God speaks to us.

[yod1948]

As musicians, we tend to think of music in terms of notes and meter and melody and harmonies, etc...but the non-musician hears something else.

I often try to remember what it was like before I was a musician. I can remember actually "hearing" a message in a lead guitar solo...as if it were crying or something. Music DID speak to me. It DID say something. It DID mean something in a tangible way even though it isn't literally communicated.

And I agree with Rahel about music expressing the glory of God even without lyrics

That doesn't necessarily contradict what your saying, Fred, about music not being the dicscernable voice of God. I just bring it up to redundantly say that music does affect people completely separate from the lyrics. It sets an atmosphere for the lyrics to flow through...and music provides a kind of pleasure to the soul that man NEEDS....or music would never have been invented and practised by every culture since Tubal-cain.

One really horrible case of hearing a message in the music would be Charlie Manson and Helter Skelter. In the opposite way, I'm sure that some people would believe that they "hear" God speaking in Johanne Bach or Jeff Beck.

[windbag]

God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him, worship Him in spirit and in truth.

Music has a spiritual side to it. For an instrument to "speak" to the spirit of man is quite feasible, in my opinion. As many of us are writers, think of how you work to get the lyrical content in sync with the musical flavor. Watch a movie and guess what's going to happen, based on what the background music is playing. Think about Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon." Great Gig in the Sky with that haunting piano and Clare Torry's vocals. No words, but powerful.

I'm guessing that most people's hesitation to include instruments in the realm of prophesy is the modern, charismatic notion that prophecy is some form of godly fortune telling. Was it yod who said that priests represented people to God and prophets represented God to people? Spot on. Regardless of our understanding, the long and sort of the matter is that the Bible declares it to be. I don't understand grace either, but I sure have benefited from it.

[russhutto]

I'll definitely agree with that middle paragraph there windbag.

And I'll just let that last paragraph marinate a little.

Personally, I don't see any Biblical basis for an instrument prophesying, though I know that God did, does, and will do things that I can't rationalize. There are several Biblical examples of prophets prophesying while music was playing, one in particular doesn't say whether they actually spoke or sung, but in my opinion I see people prophesying with their mouths, accompanied by music.

This doesn't negate the fact that we can truly worship God with and through music, but the worship that happens originates in the heart of the worshiper by way of inspiration from God, not the strings, horns, skins, or cymbals. I see prophesy in the same way. Prophecy originates in the heart of the one prophesying, inspired by the Spirit of God, and if that person or persons are playing an instrument, at the same time...the music is a by product of the heart of the prophecy...not the prophecy itself.

Anyways, that's how I tend to lean at the moment. I'll dig deeper in to this.

[windbag]

I Chronicles 25 suggests that the prophesy was accomplished through the instruments, but it could be interpreted as prophesy taking place while instruments played. I think that a normal reading of the passage suggests the first, although that makes it more mysterious. On the other hand, I Samuel 10 has a similar passage, but a normal reading suggests that prophecy took place along with music.

Up until St. Paul's time, instrument sounds had meaning. Paul references a trumpet sound signaling battle. A dinner bell speaks a message, as does a church or school bell.

A well-written song has a hook, typically found in the intro. There are songs that we play that the congregation responds to immediately, based on the sound of the instrument, before any lyric is stated. They hear the hook and...bam...they're ready to worship. I don't think that I'm belaboring the point too much to suggest that that instrumental cue calls the congregation to worship, in a sense, prophesies to the congregation.

This isn't something I would cling to very tightly, and definitely something not worth drawing lines in the sand over. Just thought I'd put a bit of a finer point on it.

[russhutto]

All good points, windbag, and ones that I am definitely willing to mull over.

I really do think you could ine up 10 people and have them read those passages and some would see it one way and others another way.

In the same way that we have varied views on end times and spiritual gifts, I'm sure there's definitely a diverse view on what propnesy is and how that includes or precludes music.

I believe that something supernatural and from another realm happens when we play to and for our Creator. I don't deny that. In fact, I'm even willing to say that it could be prophecy of some sort. I'm not saying it isn't.

I just don't see any where in scripture that literally says that the notes that sound when a musical instrument is played are prophecy. But, reasonably speaking, there are a lot of things that are a part of my belief structure which aren't literally spelled out either, so that's why I'm willing to accept this issue as a maybe.

[Mortis_Alaska]

I am so DIGGING this convo. I have recently been discussing with some friends the context and content of "prophecy" in the modern church (post-post-modern anyone?). I've been deeply troubled by the a swing towards an almost exclusive view of prophecy as "divining" the future. I had always thought of it as "proclamation of the truths of God"... or something like that.

Anyway, the converging and diverging images of the priest and prophet really came alive to me in this thread. I have been looking very carefully at the tunes our band has been choosing AND at the response (or lack thereof) our choices provoke in our services. I'm not necessarily looking for a burn-down-the-house set every time. But I sincerely desire to be faithful to provide the best opportunity for all of us in worship the encounter the presence of God more fully.

I can't say how often the voices on this forum have spoken into my life. Thank you all so much.

[worshipviolin]

I don't know how to explain prophetic worship. I'll just share what I have always thought to be prophetic worship. There are times during worship that it just seems that God has taken over my hands and there are things coming out of my violin that I cannot ordinarily play. This has happened to me many times. One example was during this service with Tommy Tenney at Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola, Fla : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsU2LCwrpTY It all started out with me playing To Him Who Sits on the Throne. Suddenly I felt something just welling up inside of me. The next thing I knew, I was hearing a melody in my spirit and it was coming out of my violin at the same time. I felt like I was standing at a distance just listening to this. It was wild to say the least. On that night God healed several in the crowd and many people told me that God was speaking to them personally as I played. No one has ever mentioned anything to me about God speaking anything futuristic to them during these times. It's been more edifying and personal things. I can't explain what it is like, but I do believe that there is absolutely no connection between playing prophetically and improvising. I have improvised on the violin almost all of my life, and it comes nowhere close to what this is like. Playing prophetically (if this is what you would call it) seems to be when God starts playing through you. And like I said, it seems like every time this has happened with me, people say that they have heard God speaking through the music, and there has often been a healing presence come with it. Why? I don't know. Now, don't jump all over me like I'm a nut. Didn't God speak through a donkey once? I know someone will slam me over this one, but know that I am just telling you what I have often experienced. Let's face it, much of what God does is not explainable, and sometimes not plainly detailed in scripture.

[yod1948]

way cool, Mortis. Welcome to the jungle, btw.

I was thinking about something else that seemed possibly pertinent.

The hebrew language is so fascinating in its simple complexity. Every letter is almost infinitely layered with meaning rather than just being a symbol for a particular sound as the letters of the english language are.

For example, every letter of the hebrew aleph-bet originally comes from a word picture and has a numerical value and a musical value.

Every word in the hebrew language is made from a 3 letter root. So imagine looking at a short 3 letter word and seeing 3 pictures, a mathmatical equation, and hearing music.

my username for example: Yod is the smallest letter in the hebrew aleph-bet. (It is translated as "jot" in the New Testament). It comes from a picture of a hand which is representative of the "hand of God" and has a numerical value of 10. Personally, I don't know how to determine the musical value but there are people who do. A "yod" by itself represents the Tetragrammatron because it is the first letter in the 4 letter name of God - YHVH. It is also the first letter in His Son's name, Yeshua, which literally means "salvation" in the present tense...or "salvation now"

Translated into the english language you would see a "yod" as merely an apostrophe (') with a sound like the letter "y" but to a hebrew it has these multiple layers of meaning.

When you put that letter with 2 more letters to form a complete word, you would actually have 3 pictures which all have symbolic meaning themselves and add up to a word which is related to the summation of those pictures. And again...that word would also be a mathmatical equation with a numerical value...and a melody.


There was a CD I had years ago from an Israeli mathmetician who had taken the Tenach (aka Old Testament) and "played" every single word from start to finish. It was fascinating and beautiful at times and quite chaotic in other places.

So, in reality, all music could be translated into words that may have meaning in the hebrew language. In other words, all music is literally spelling something. Its would be a matter of translation to know what that is.

[Rahel]

Wow...this becomes a very interesting conversation...I hope it will go on a bit.

What worshipviolin said is what I meant.
I even experience this difference with my voice.
And that is why I even wonder, if You can call a song prophetic, just because it is written in the way that God speaks to his people. Do You really worship prophetically if You simply use such a song.
I mean, in the end like music are just notes, for the first instance words are "just" words. Doesn't it start to become prophetic, when God uses it and puts his power into it, when it is combined with the faith that God is speaking this right into this special situation? For example as russ said, 10 people could read the same scripture and all would read it different. And when I would give it to an unbeliever this would propbably not speak to him at all....if not the spirit reveals to him.

Doesn't this all speak about us, that we should have the ability to feel and hear for what God wants to do today in the church? Where he wants to call his people and lead them?
Isn't it more than general declarations about God? Isn't prophetic more specific? Yes, it can be everything, but isn't it more the released power in a special moment?

[russhutto]

worshipviolin, agreed. I'm not dogmatic in my stance that because it isn't clearly spelled out in scripture that it isn't real.

In fact, like I've been saying, I'm reallying rolling this around in my heart and mind these last few days.

I've "prophesied" on my instruments as well. I guess where I'm at now is tht I don't deny that God would choose to use music to speak into people's lives. I'm almost absolutely positive that He does.

I guess what I'm still rolling around is the notion is that it isn't actually the music that is speaking, it is God Himself. The words of God, if you will, are riding the soundwaves, not different from a surfer riding the waves in to the shore.

The music is the "vehicle of delivery" not the message itself. I've felt God clearly speak to me through music and in the exact same way through a sunset or a starry night. The waves of sound and light are just conduits that God's words ride on.

In the case of an actual person prophesying, the person prophesying is the vessel. The words are still God's. I guess where my internal struggle is, is not can prophecy happen in and through music...because I believe it does. But it's more along the lines of defining what prophecy actually is and who or what does or doesn't get the credit for it.

In the OT, even when a prophet spoke to "represent God to the people" He wasn't speaking of his own accord. He was speaking the words of God. He was God's own mouthpiece. The same can and does happen today.

So I guess overall, I'm not saying prophetic worship isn't possible. It surely is. I guess I'm just looking at it very simply and assigning the actual prophetic part to the Spirit of God, not to the voice or even notes of the human prophet/musician.

[russhutto]

P.S. Great responses Yod, and Rahel. We must have cross posted.

[windbag]

I'll throw something else into the mix from the for what it's worth department. The voice of God has been described as thunder. In Paul's Damascus road experience, he heard the voice of God. Others standing by heard something, but didn't hear the specific words/message that Paul received. Luke reports that they heard the voice, but saw no one. Paul reports that the others didn't hear the voice. So, it's clear that those with Paul who did hear something, were unable to make sense of it.

Can it be that an instrument could communicate a message to some, but not others present at the same time? Who knows how God accomplishes what He does? And I think that is the larger issue here. How do we hear God, as we seek to follow Him. That's an element of worship and leading worship, isn't it?

My caution in this is that we don't go for the the-freakier-it-is-the-more-I-know-it's-from-God mentality.

[Rahel]

I do not believe that it is necessarly about freaky things....sometimes it can be freaky...but sometimes it also simply is obeying the word You read or hear without feeling anything.


When I read Day 5 of the first week in the Pure Praise book this morning, it was shown how the difference was before the people of Israel received a word of God and after it. The prophetic word brought forth the praise and worship.
And it was not a general declaration of people about who God is and what he did. It was a special word of God for a special situation or a special moment.