Too much planning?

[janowen66]

Hey, I've been reading "The Dangerous Act of Worship" (you should get this! it will rock your world) and he's touched on some things that have been troubling me.

sometimes I think we plan so much that we really leave no room for a move of God at all and I am longing to step aside and see what God has for us.....

do you ever feel this way???

I posted more about it on my blog but really want to hear from some worship leaders.
www.aworshipfulheart.typepad.com

It's just too long to go into here but I really want to hear from some other worship planners.

[johnnysierra]

Great insight jan! I am a repeated offender when it comes to this. As worship leaders we sometimes just get so caught up in what WE want to do that we forget what HE wants to do. That's were an intimate relationship with God in necessary. Because when we have that we begin to know what HE wants for us and our church.

This doesn't mean that we don't plan and neglect being prepared but it means that we humble ourselves before God and present our plans onto Him. Also we have to allow room in our plans for the Holy Spirit to pour Himself out and minister to us and the congregation. We cannot get lost in what we are doing but in Who we are doing it for!

Great stuff Jan!

Let's keep sharing. Does anybody want to add on to this?

[fmckinnon]

Great thought, Jan. I think planning is important ... so, I'm not at all opposed to planning ... what I'm opposed to is planning too much, especially, in regards to time.

One thing I've started considering is "planning" a window of 5 minutes or so within the context of our production sheet where I know I have some "spontaneous" time ...

Meaning - I'd rather "plan" to do 2 songs, and have plenty of room to leave the "planned arrangement" and linger on those songs, if they are happening ... than to be forced to do 3 songs, and have to rush through due to the "plan".

Make sense?

[worshiptrench]

My theory...

Go to line of scrimmage with a play called, you can always audible.

Wonder what our more liturgical friends --who also approach God with a certain thought out richness--would say about this???

[janowen66]

Thanks so much for the discussion. I wanted to clarify that I was not judging anyone, after all I plan worship experiences for a living so I'd only be judging myself!!! You might say I am just hungry to see God move and not to be quite so caught up in the planning, which I spend so much of my time thinking of and preparing for. I enjoy liturgical worship in a retreat community on a regular basis and I think it's all the same question regardless of style - I'm just hungry for God to do something mighty in my life in an overwhelming way.

I might express it this way as well - I long for more than what I am able to plan. I feel my limits and I know God can work in ways that are unfathomable for me. It's not so much a philosophy of ministry question as it is a hunger. I hope you were not offended because I was not pointing fingers. I was wondering as a leader of worship week in and week out who is hungry to see God do more than I can think or imagine.

[Rahel]

Do You really want that?

[russhutto]

I think it depends on the PURPOSE of your primary gathering.

We plan ours to a T because of the purpose. We have other gatherings and small groups that are more loosely planned to allow for more spontenaeity.

But just keep in mind, just because something is spontaneous does not mean that it is a move of God.

I believe that our entire gathering from the moment we begin planning up until the last person leaves is a move of God, if you will. Personally, I believe that God is always moving...it's us who sometimes need to move towards Him.

So in essence, do you plan to move towards God or are you creating spaces expecting Him to do all the moving?

[Rahel]

I think Russ is right. It is not that we bring our songs from our side and God just moves in the spontaneous. God is in it all and moves.

I think one thing is our heart attitude. In Your blog entry You wrote that everything happens how it is supposed to happen because it was planned like this. I think it becomes dangerous when we loose the knowledge that we depend on God and trust in our plans and our preparation only.

But what I thought either is that You long for the prophetic ministry in Your worship times. That is why I asked if You are sure that You want it. Because if this is what You want then You can also start to pray that God strengthens Your spirit for opposition. This is what will arise. Even out of Your own rows.

[Mike Darley]

I think the thing we forget is that it is up to God whether He moves or not. We come together as believers, we worship God, we serve our communities, we do what the people of God are called to, and sometimes God graciously chooses to move in a special. Let's look at the day of Pentecost for example. The people of God came together, prayed, sought God and God showed up. I'm sure they weren't expecting things to happen the way they did, but God chose to move. In a little more recent history, during the time of Jonathan Edwards (1700's) he would preach and there were all kinds of manifestations of the spirit, a lot of which he struggled with understanding. The people of God met and God showed up. And more recently still, last week at church we had our normal service, God moved, and several people when to the front of the church to receive prayer, there were tears, repenting...God showed up. (Keep in mind this is an SBC church so this is pretty good for us. :))

I guess my point is that we as God people should simply go about the business of seeking Him, and when He chooses to move, He will.

[worshiptrench]

The "God showed up" language makes me nervous. I think He is always "showing up" the bigger problem being that we don't recognize and respond to His presence.

He is constantly initiating worship (John 4 "seeking worshipers" in active tense in Greek), we are not always aware or responding. This changes my perspective as WL from getting God to show up to helping people overcome the obstacles to their awareness of His presence and activity.

He reveals...we respond.

[russhutto]

The "God showed up" language makes me nervous. I think He is always "showing up" the bigger problem being that we don't recognize and respond to His presence.

He is constantly initiating worship (John 4 "seeking worshipers" in active tense in Greek), we are not always aware or responding. This changes my perspective as WL from getting God to show up to helping people overcome the obstacles to their awareness of His presence and activity.

He reveals...we respond.

That's prett much what I said. Good post.

[Mike Darley]

Okay, fine, bad choice of words, but do you at least get my point?

[janowen66]

I'm not sure I made my point clear - it was a simple question. Is it possible to so overplan that we leave no room for a movement of God that might be different from what WE planned?

Here is a simple example that has actually happened to us: we plan for a skit following the worship set and we get to that point and I'm sensing that God would have us linger so as I pray I am attempting to discern what God would have us do. However, we're so used to a really tight service that the skit cast was already setting up while I was praying, thus trumping other options. Then I've also had a strong sense at the end of worship that God desired us to do a ministry time or change direction a little but we plow on into the sermon without seeming to notice.

This has led me to wonder if we overplan, if we pack the services too tightly and in the middle of it all if we are even open, listening or aware if God would have us go in a different direction.

I've been leading for a long time and am well aware that "God is in the planning as well". I also am aware that God is God and can move when and how He likes and He may choose to do something in a manner that does not respect my technical cue sheet!

It's a balance question - how do we balance this and train our people to be sensitive as well. It's just a conversation I want to have - not a judgment or anything as I am not sure of the answers.

Just wondering if anyone else ever feels that tension or looks back later at your services and wonders if you "overran" God in some way? (felt a prompting and ignored it!)

I always plan so I'm not saying throw planning out - I see the point in that totally.

[russhutto]

Yes.

Simple answer.

We do pack our services too tight. We do try and cram every spiritual discipline into an hour and a half on sundays.

Again, I'm thinking that a "healthy" church senses that God moves all the time and creates spaces/environments/connections for people to move towards God.

I get what you're saying Jan. I don't believe the solution is necessarily in trying to be more "free" within the crunch of the 2 hours we've "set aside" each week to "do" church.

Personally, I believe it comes down to purpose. What is the purpose of your gathering?

If people come expecting to get a packaged experience for about an hour and a half and then one Sunday out of every 2 months the "leaders" just disrupt that routine, it can be messy.

Not saying that's right. But I think we need to do a better job of defining the paradigms of ministry in each gathering that we hold.

At our place our Sunday gathering really isn't for all of our believers who are trying to get "lost" in God. It's not for the believer who is trying to find some sort of intimate experience in worship. I guess you could say that it's not even for what the majority of my fellow church goers (at least in the charismatic vein) would call ministry time.

Our primary gathering is 2 fold. For the one who is far from God, we paint a picture of a God who cares about them and wants them to know Him and know joy and peace in all circumstances. For the one who is walking with God, our primary gathering is a place where they can lock arms with those who are not quite as far along in the journey (believers and nonbelievers) and SERVE them.

We teach Scripture. We worship God. We just don't spend a whole lot of time doing altar calls, ministry time, or really churchy moments that intimidate those who are far from God.

We save all those for our small home groups and what we call our "Believers" services. We rock out worship a whole lot longer, partake in Communion, and have more intense and longer teaching. Plus, we leave a WHOLE lot of room for the people in those gatherings to BE ministers and to DO ministry.

I'm guessing that the goal is the same as most churches, we just feel that a church full of people who are empowered to do ministry throughout the week regardless of location is more effective than a few "ordained" ministers doing it within the cramped confines of a 2 hour service.

So, from my perspective, planning to be effective and efficient in the use of our ministry time is more important than just squeezing some empty space into a place where it's not so effective.

Like I said, Yes. hehehe

[worshiptrench]

Yes Russ is right about purpose though ours is exactly inverted from his.

We, while welcoming unbelievers, gear our service to be a worship-discipleship purposed. In a sense, unbelievers are invited to "watch what we do" as they cannot truly worship. We have found this creates a hunger within them. We call for radical immediate and sometimes difficult obedience in our services (something which wouldn't be in a "seeker" church).

We expect and hold Teams (small groups) accountable to do the evangelism and then to take responsiblity for anyone that responds yes by walking with them in the discipleship process and folding them into their Team. So much so that we are contemplating a Team that doesn't grow and multiple in a year gets shutdown as "dysfunctional."

We are a Go and Tell church more than a Come and Hear (at least ideally so). Engage the public square.

SO, Russ's service and miy service designs should look diametrically different in some respects.

[worshiptheKing]

This was a good one, hope I'm not too late.

I understand the question and agree with both Russ and Trench- our service is actually even a blend of theirs. We invite all believers who are present to #1 worship as they are moved and #2 for them to example the freedom of such to those who might not yet be believers. we are independant Baptist so not as free as I would like. (different topic).

Anywho, I am a big believer that the Spirit will move during your planning and through prayer the Spirit will actually do the planning. But I also enjoy the freedom of being able to change things on the fly. Linger on a chorus, repeat something, etc. I have to be careful because the musicians, although I love them to death, are not quite to the point where they can "go with the flow." Therefore, musically, I have to stay with the planned maps. To loop a chorus is no biggie but to loop back and ad lib on the verse or anything like that would cause a train wreck. Someone said something about leaving little unplanned gaps just for this purpose which is a great idea, "planned spontaneity."

Last thing- God is always there so "showing up" is not the issue. Just a question, no negative tone intended- Would your question be better posed as "Do we plan to the extent that we don't allow time for the people of our congregation to respond to God's presence?"

[Smitty]

For me, it's simple.

Planning...good

Too much planning...bad

Smitty

[chipshot0701]

My theory...

Go to line of scrimmage with a play called, you can always audible.

Wonder what our more liturgical friends --who also approach God with a certain thought out richness--would say about this???

Ours is a liturgical church rooted in its traditions for over 55 years.
All of the planning drives me NUTS!
I so wish we could have that easy feeling of letting the spirit flow into our praise time.
Its slowly manifesting but I long for the day when we can comfortably have that.
If we go over just a little bit on music time I get the uneasy feeling that our pastor is going to get nervous because it will mess up his planned schedule.

[TominKazoo]

I agree that God is always at our services, but that we often do not recognize Him. Our services are planned out pretty tightly, but there is always the ability of the Worship Leader to take more time here, or cut a song there. I think that is one of a worship leaders most important jobs - to help the congregation respond to the Holy Spirit's presence. We need to point out God to those who may be missing that He is with us. We are not merely song leaders or setup men for the pastor. We are given the task of leading people into the presence of God. If we short that for the sake of staying on schedule we have shortchanged our congregation's experience of God.

[ChadBrooks]

I work and lead worship in a traditional liturgical context. This doesn't mean we only wear robes and have the organ. Our music probably doesn't differ from many of your churches.

My main role is leading our Worship Design Team. We plan alot. We have every minute noted in our structure. But, I would then say that 40% of the time, we go completely off the Order and fly by the seat of our pants. The tech guys roll with it, the musicians, and the other participants. We plan so we can do this seamlessly and no one notices. I liken it to being a jazz musician. You don't just decide you are going to play jazz. Every really good jazz musician I know has spent his (or her) time in the woodshed,and they know every scale and inversion you can think of. But when it comes time to play, they are able to forget it all. They say that their rehearsal builds up muscle memory, and the ability to see in front of what is being played. Planning well AND executing well allows for the leaders to recognize when they need to go off the order. When you have this structure, you can almost see scenerio's and how to run the rest of the service. If I am not leading that day-its not odd to see me texting our tech guys and my boss to make sure that things still appear seamless to the congregants. It rarely goes bad, but it is because we planned really well.

As for the idea of "God showing up", I think it is a dangerous idea that we have allowed to creep into our heads. As dangerous is the idea that spontaneous worship is what the spirit will respond to the most/best. I think of the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal when this topic comes up. The prophets of Baal working themselves into a frenzy, screaming and cutting themselves. They believed this behavior would invoke their God. Well, you know the story and know where that got them. But I often think that this is the ideology that we have when it comes to worship. We attach serious meaning to a specific song or leader and can get to the point to where we can't worship unless the needed items are their.

Long-tail blogging is a hot topic in some circles. It talks about blog posts retaining long term hits, like for years. I think it is good to apply that idea to worship. What counts is the life with God, the long term. I know plenty of people that will have a good experience with the service, but walk out and act like it didn't happen. This saddens me, but we can't concentrate and expend all of our energy on snagging people in (read Willow Creeks 'Reveal' for their thoughts on this) I have to realize one of my roles is not to create converts in worship, but to nurture the saints.

[farmermike]

A couple years ago our church spent a series of Wednesday evening’s learning about different worship styles. We all took a test to learn our worship style (think personality test and you will have the basic concept) and discovered the variety of style s that existed in the congregation. It helped us understand better the conflicts we sometimes have about music styles and other worship content. I am certainly not an expert in this and have actually forgotten the names of the different styles, but what I learned is if we plan a worship that contains the same elements each Sunday -- some in the congregation are left out.

Now we all know we cannot be all things to all people – and the real purpose of the study was sort of a slap upside the head-- get the focus off of us as individuals and OUR worship needs – and to realize again what worship is really about –God.

Worship planning for our services involves at least three people – the person delivering the sermon, the music planner and the primary worship planner that is responsible to pull it all together. At least one of these individuals is different each week. The benefit of pulling in a variety of different members into the worship planning is seldom are any two Sunday services exactly alike. Music styles vary, scripture is presented in a variety of ways. The downside is coordinating this type of planning can be a nightmare – it has survived a couple years now – but we may be modifying it a little just so some of us to not go completely insane. Other upsides are we involve a lot of different people in the service and as a result those various worship styles get hit at least once a month. We also have a basic framework for the service (not a requirement to follow it) we work from that helps guide planners into covering the different worship styles. It is not as complicated as I am making it sound. And not having a set pattern does allow for God to work a little more creatively in the planning process.

I am not sure how much time is spent individually planning – but the service comes together pretty quickly. Usually a Monday afternoon meeting with the 3 key people, email communication, Thursday afternoon deadline for everything in the bulletin (or program) and Sunday pre-service final last minute coordination and group prayer to God for helping pull the whole thing together.

Something I picked up in some of the other posts is the necessity to be on time. If you are a multiple service congregation, that is very important. We only have one service. We target one hour – but we have gone as long as 1 ½ hours (my brother in law lets me know when it goes that long), it depends on who is planning, what they planned and what happens in the service. But – even with this flexibility – there is an expectation by the congregation that we not go over 1 hour and 15 minutes. There seems to be too much focus on not going “too long”. But our ‘time for worship’ is a whole other issue…

[Smitty]

When you over plan your worship time, it's very similar to preparing too much food for the picnic - some of it gets wasted, and everybody tends to eat too much. Much better to leave them wanting a little more, than to stuff them so full they fight to get away from the table, eh?

Smitty

[TominKazoo]

One other thing to consider is what "going over" in service times does to your nursery and sunday school people if they meet during service times. You put a lot of pressure on these people when you run long. (taking care of babies an extra 15 minute seems like an hour - I know I do nursey once a month), If you want to keep your nursery people happy, and hence doing nursery, you need to stay on time. Same for your people taking care of the sunday school aged kids. It's not just for those in the service.

[worshiptrench]

Everybody keeps saying "overplan." Please define.

Is a liturgy over planned?

[TominKazoo]

I think what people mean, is that so much of service time can be designated (down to the minute) that there is little available time to change something if you feel led by God to do so. By applying such a ridgid structure to our services we can schedule God out of the equation sometimes. I do not believe that litutgies automatically do that, but rather that we can get wrapped up in what comes next instead of what God is doing at the time. Make sense?

[Smitty]

Great point Tom, I think your last sentence nailed it.

Smitty

[fmckinnon]

The Pure Praise discussion yesterday had to do with Planned Spontaneity ... I'd say that's perfect timing for this thread!

[gregrjones]

I really believe in the idea of planning with wide boundaries. In other words, provide structure, but within that structure make room for spontaneity and improvisation.

For instance, I will plan a setlist, but train my worship teams on signals so that I can communicate possible improvisations to them.

When organizing a practice, I will have an idea of how the music might go, but I always leave room for the whole team to contribute new and fresh ideas.

[chipshot0701]

nice. I like that thought process.

[Viclyn]

I think it depends on where you are at as a team as well. If you have multiple team members rotating in and out you almost have to plan tightly for communication sake. Spontaneity requires a team that knows each other well enough to know signals, whom to take the signals from, and can anticipate a bit. That actually requires a great deal of practice and knowledge of what you are doing and your team members cues and tendencies. Spontaneity actually takes preparation which makes it a bit of an oxymoron when it comes to worship. Train wrecks happen when everyone is not prepared. (Sometimes you are blessed and it works out but you often take your chances.) Distraction then ensues.

Example: I have been occasionally commissioned to sing with a very good team when most of their vocalists are on vacation or are unavailable. We were doing a song and the leader pointed to me. It dawned on me that he wanted me to take the lead on the next verse but I was so surprised (because we didn't practice it this way and it took me a minute to understand what he wanted) that I ended up singing the wrong verse. Not a huge deal but it can get pretty hairy if you don't know what is being asked of you while you are on the spot.

So, if you have a regular team or your team members are so practiced and rehearsed that taking a different direction is easy, then you can plan looser but if not, it does help to have things fairly well outlined. Of course we should all have good attitudes and be flexible when necessary but you want to balance that with not frustrating people by not keeping them in the loop.

The culture of my current team is that they like to know what they are doing. They all want a service order and want to pretty much know what the road map of a song is. We are getting better at being more flexible but I have to plan to the minute as to make people feel like they know what is going on. As we practice more as a team (we are also transitioning with leadership and leadership style as well) it will be easier to play follow the leader and be comfortable with that.

[yod1948]

When I hear the phrase "over planning" it conjures images in my mind about being a slave to a "holy program".

The gist of it was mentioned in an earlier post on the previous page where we can become so rigid to a program that we aren't listening to the Holy Spirit. And why should we if every single word and movement is planned down to the nanosecond? The Holy Spirit would only mess up our holy program! (sarcasm)

I see this happening in every movement/ministry as it grows large; and I believe it is what makes a genuine revival turn into a gray shadow of itself through forcing everyone to conform to "the way we always did it"

It's end result is forcing new wine into old wineskins....

[Viclyn]

I hear what people are saying but is the Holy Spirit really a procrastinator? Why does the Spirit have to move in the last minute? Why can't we hear from it while we plan? If we are prayerfully planning can't the Holy Spirit move us to plan it exactly how God wants it? I feel like we get the movement of the Holy Spirit mixed up with the emotion of the moment. Not sure that is one and the same. Please don't take what I am saying to an extreme. I'm not saying that you don't listen and flex, but when I hear people saying that if you plan, and stick to it, you aren't listening to the Holy Spirit, I begin to wonder if we really know what that means. It is a common saying that maybe has become too common of a saying.

Let's face it, it is more about our hearts and minds then it is what we put on paper. If the heart and mind are wrong, then planning or spontaneity is all wrong. I believe God uses it anyway, but I don't think we get out of it what God intends and we lose the blessing of that.

This is not really an either/or kind of thing it is a balance thing. Planning becomes wrong when it is about planning and not about God. Spontaneity becomes wrong when it is about spontaneity and not about God. Tradition is wrong when it is about tradition and not about God. Change is wrong when it is about change and not about God. All wrong when it is about programming and not about God.

[yod1948]

You make some excellent points and yet I don't think anyone here would be against making a plan.

It is when the "holy program" becomes so sacrosanct that it can not be altered that it becomes a problem.

So many famous ministries that began with a move of the Spirit (which no one can manufacture through a program) became over time little more than a religious organization.

They traded spontaneous response of a vibrant relationship with pre-planned rites that can be controlled.

This is what I think of when I hear the words "over planned"



And when it comes to religious organizations, "control" seems to be the opposite of the Holy Spirit, imo. No one controls Him.

[gregrjones]

You make some excellent points and yet I don't think anyone here would be against making a plan.

It is when the "holy program" becomes so sacrosanct that it can not be altered that it becomes a problem.

So many famous ministries that began with a move of the Spirit (which no one can manufacture through a program) became over time little more than a religious organization.

They traded spontaneous response of a vibrant relationship with pre-planned rites that can be controlled.

This is what I think of when I hear the words "over planned"



And when it comes to religious organizations, "control" seems to be the opposite of the Holy Spirit, imo. No one controls Him.

I couldn't agree more.

Prophecy is the synthesis of being Spirit-lead and planning. When the prophets, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, foretold of Christ, they were revealing God's planning, WAYYYYY in advance.

So let's not blame our lack of planning on the Holy Spirit or think that only spontaneous improv is Spirit lead.

With that said, I DO believe in reading the congregation's mood and adapting accordingly. Lots of Christians call this following the leading of the Spirit, but if that were the case, this would only occur in Christian churches. However, any good artist or speaker reads their crowd and adapts....

[yod1948]

Lots of Christians call this following the leading of the Spirit, but if that were the case, this would only occur in Christian churches. However, any good artist or speaker reads their crowd and adapts....



An assembly of christians gathered for worship could be led of the Spirit already, right? So when you "read the crowd and adapt" wouldn't that be following the Holy Spirit?

As a former rock bar singer, I think that secular entertainers are being led by a spirit to read the crowd also...it's just not usually the "holy" one. ;)

But back to the OP, surely you've seen cases where the pre-planned set clearly needed to be changed (or largely altered) minutes before the service?

Did the Holy Spirit get that wrong when we planned in advance? It's a rhetorical question, of course, to say that we should always be prepared no matter what we've "planned" to follow and adapt to the Spirit's leading.

One day that might mean executing the plan flawlessly and another day it might mean throw the plan out the window and sing campfire songs acappela...or a memorial...or a celebration...or whatever.

So I'm all for being prepared because the plan is in a constant state of change

[gregrjones]

An assembly of christians gathered for worship could be led of the Spirit already, right? So when you "read the crowd and adapt" wouldn't that be following the Holy Spirit?


Where does scripture say that we have to assemble to be led by the Spirit?

And where does Scripture say that reading a crowd is being led by the Spirit?

Being led by the Spirit is described in Scripture simply as hearing God. Now God could speak through circumstances but in Scripture when He does, He tells you. He says "Look at this event. I'm getting ready to do something..."



As a former rock bar singer, I think that secular entertainers are being led by a spirit to read the crowd also...it's just not usually the "holy" one. ;)

Interesting perspective. You may be correct. Just don't hold to it dogmatically since Scripture is silent on this.



But back to the OP, surely you've seen cases where the pre-planned set clearly needed to be changed (or largely altered) minutes before the service?

Did the Holy Spirit get that wrong when we planned in advance? It's a rhetorical question...

I think we sometimes assume that the Spirit cares about every detail. But if this were so, I'm convinced that God would speak more clearly and often. Yes, many times we don't hear Him because we aren't sensitive enough, but I also believe many times He is silent because He is giving us freedom to choose. He is saying, "Pick whatever your heart chooses for that setlist. I don't care because I trust you. I'll work it out."


So I'm all for being prepared because the plan is in a constant state of change

Where does scripture His plan is in constant flux?

[yod1948]

Where does scripture say that we have to assemble to be led by the Spirit?

And where does Scripture say that reading a crowd is being led by the Spirit?

Being led by the Spirit is described in Scripture simply as hearing God.



I didn't say that...(the operative word being "could") but do we start with the premise that we are the only persons capable of hearing the Holy Spirit?







Scripture is silent on this.

not necessarily - 1 John 2:22






Where does scripture say His plan is in constant flux?


I didn't say that either. What I was saying dovetails into your statement,


"He is saying, "Pick whatever your heart chooses for that setlist. I don't care because I trust you. I'll work it out."