Electronic Drums

[tmartin]

I am sure there are various opinions regarding electronic drums. However, from a church drummer's point of view, I don't think you can beat the Roland V-drum TD-20 Kit. However, you need to purchase the modeled kits from vexpressions to load via flashcard into the TD-20 module.

Rather than carrying 10 different acoustic snares with me to church to get as close to the orginal sound of the recording as possible (not to mention the other drums) I can dial these kits into my Chain Play on the module and "puff" there they are for my instant use. I use Shure E2's and a PM30 monitoring system that is through the house. If musicians need that more "live" bleed from the drums, I simply turn one of my rack mounted speakers their way and that seems to work. With this new kit, I can even program so when I hit another drum the snares sing. This kit is very very close to the feel of acoustic drums. If I were only concerned with how they responded as compared to acoustic drums, well, that would be all about me. The sound is absolutely amazing. With the drums and sequencing, people say that it was from the CD if they did not see me playing. To me, a nice compliment. However, God knows I want it to sound as good as possible for Him.

[bobthecanadian]

I hear ya, electronic drums, nowadays, are definitely the real thing. some may disagree with me, but they sound good, are easily moved and set up, never go out of tune and are a lot easier to set to sit in the mix.

Yup, I'll take a set.

Bob

[SeanMichael]

E-drums have come a long way and are such an asset when it comes to controlling stage volume. I remember playing them when they first hit the scene, man what a difference! Coming from a drummers stand point I know a lot of my drumming buddies who enjoyed e-kits for practice, but wouldn't touch them for live performance. With Roland's developments in that area I think many opinions have changed.
I still play an accustic kit during worship, but I am really looking into purchasing an e-kit very soon.

Sean

[chipshot0701]

We had this discussion in May and most of us agreed that the cymbals lack in response. We hear the thud of the stick hitting the pads sometimes more then we hear the tingging sound come through the monitors. It can be humorous at times. Like the time when our drummers cable came unplugged because our bassist stepped on it and the drummer played an entire song with no sound! He was going crazy back there like he always does but all we heard was thwack thwack thwack etc etc

was really funny tho.. other then the cymbals we really love em. The sound characteristics and being able to tweek things is super. Also the midi and lap top hook up is good for having music playing in between sets.

mike

[dtpuga]

They just still aren't like the real thing! I am a sound guy, not a drummer, and I greatly appreciate the ease of running sound on digital drums over live. But the sound reproduction just isn't the same.

You don't get anywhere near 'live' dynamics out of the mesh heads and rubber cymbals. Not to mention how frequently you can hear the sticks hitting the frame and cymbals right out in the house. I also only have 4 outs from the one we use, so that makes an artistic mix almost impossible with drums.

Don't get me wrong though. These things are a GREAT alternative where control or space are an issue. Just don't let yourself be fooled into thinking they are as good as the real thing.

There is probably a reason you basically never see these things on a tour stage anywhere.

We are about 6 months or so from out new building and counting down the days until we get REAL DRUMS in church. Our regular drummer is planning on taking the digital kit and stripping it down to a couple of triggers and keeping it though. We are gonna use it for the random sounds that we might want from time to time. It can also be a great click track source.

-Travis

[fmckinnon]

I echo you Travis -

I'm a sound guy ... a worship leader ... and yes .. a drummer (although it's not my primary instrument, by any means ...)

I can say that I just hate knowing I'm going to have electronic drums - I don't get the same energy or sound ... but I know that they are necessary. In my case, for example, in our existing building - I'd NEVER ask for real drums ... but in the upcoming building ... LOOK OUT - we're going for the real thing!

God bless,
Fred

[patrickdubya]

I've got to say, I'm a drummer and I really can't stand eDrums for several reasons.

They aren't comfortable to play on. If you started playing drums on 'real' set, just like anything else, you get used to the feel and response of the drums themselves (and cymbals). eDrums do not feel the same. Mesh heads help, but the response lacks. Drummers feel a certain energy coming from the drums when they play. eDrums do not give the same response. When I play I not only want to hear a 'boom' - I also want to feel it.

When playing fast fills, or rolls on the hi-hat, the eDrums never pick up each stroke that I play. Sometimes just playing quarter notes would skip as well. Not a big deal to the average listener, but to a drummer keeping rhythm means everything and it's annoying when triggers and such go out.

As much as the drums try to sound real, they never have the great live sound as acoustic drums.

A good set of drums can come in all kinds of wood types like maple, birch, mahogany. Some nicer drums come in exotic woods like mapa burl, zebrawood, kurrillean birch, and so on. This may sound weird, but drums should be drums made of these woods. Just like a Gibson Les Paul, drums have a classic look that shouldn't be tampered with or whittled down to a 1 inch shell with a see-through drumhead.

Sometimes I think it's funny when worship leaders replace an acoustic set for eDrums without really asking the drummer how they feel about it. It's never an easy switch on a drummer. If you're going to make a switch, really ask the drummer his advice since he is the drummer and he will be playing on it. It would be sort of like taking a guitar from a guitarist giving it a plastic body and plastic strings and making all kinds of changes to it then handing it back to the rightful owner to play.

[maydavidj]

Well, I started out on drums before I went to guitar. They're still probably my "primary" intrument. But, I'm not that picky about how they feel. The Roland's we have at church don't feel exactly like real ones, but they feel good enough in their own way to be played like real ones. I don't know what it is, but they kind of give me this weird confidence when I'm playing. I've played lower-end sets and they didn't pick up all my hits on the hats and stuff. I would say stuff like that just depends on the trigger quality. I would love to have one of those high end Roland kits. In my opinion, if you aren't running your drums (or even the mix for that matter) loud enough to overcome the rubber hitting on the drums, that's not their fault! :D

Think realistic though...When recordings are made, a lot of the time people will use triggers for the toms and stuff. At my uncle's studio, we take a signal from the kick drum mic, and run it into a sound module and set it to trigger a kick drum of our choice. Sometimes, we'll keep the miced signal, and then sometimes we'll use an electronic one.

I know though, acoustics DO sound better in most live situations. But I will say that I think electronics sound better than:

1. Acoustic drums that are not tuned properly
2. Acoustic drums behind a shield with no mics (only ambient noise)
3. Cheap acoustic drums/cymbals
4. Acoustic drums with poor micing
5. Drums that are not miced and on one side of an auditorium (one side of the congregation is blasted by drums and the other can't hear them at all)

We went to electronic drums in our main sanctuary about 2 years ago. Honestly, they sound better than the acoustics. Several factors contributed to that. For one, they were almost loud enough by themselves not to be miced, but it wasn't pleasent...like, the ambient noise (which sounded bad) overcame the "good signal" from the mics.

We've always used acoustic drums in our youth hall though. We just have a sheild. It only seats about 100. The ceiling is really low too. The drums aren't too loud in the seating area at all; they HAVE TO have their mics. But, they are so loud on our little stage. We are going to try the electronics in there for the first time next Wednesday.

[dtpuga]

David,

I hear you on your issues. And even agree on your 'times that eDrums are better than acoustics.' But I want to make two points.
Point #1 is that we are all discussing this like there is a right answer. And there isn't.

And even though point #1 is true... Point #2 is that in my (somewhat limited) experience, I have never talked to a person who was PRIMARILY a drummer before any other instrument that didn't want to play acoustics over digital at all costs. Umm, that didn't make sense... If a guy is a true drummer and not just one on the weekends because no one else is, he is going to choose live EVERY time. There has to be some credibility to that.

I know there are exceptions to everything. I know that 'you' who are reading this now probably LOVE digital drums.

At our church now we use digital in our main service and acoustics, unmiced, behind plexi, in the corner of our youth room. HaHa. It is STILL is better than the $2000 digital set it replaced. Hands down. Aside from not being able to control their levels I have no complaints. (Yes, that may be a big issue.) I fought them going in their for a while but finally gave in to my Associate Tech Dir and youth pastor and they gave it a shot... I was wrong, they were right.

We have had very skilled drummers play on both kits in that room and it is like night and day. I could name them... Patrick, TJ, Chris, Shannon, Rick... but you don't know them so it doesn't matter. There is just something on those digital sets that you can't get away from. Too perfect and repetitive, all starts to sound the same... You can have the touch of Tiger Woods with a sand wedge and still not get them to trigger right more than about 95% of the time. When was the last time your acoustic snare misfired? There is just a truckload of dynamics that you leave behind when you go digital, unlike any other acoustic to digital transition I have encountered. And that is just the snare. Let's not even discuss how tight those rubber cymbals sound. In my experience, you don't lose as much quality at all on the kick and the toms. They tend to sound good, but then again, there isn't as much to playing them. They get hit square, hard, and very rarely 'rolled' or anything else. They don't have to resonate like a cymbal or anything like that either.

Anyway, if you ask me, which you haven't yet, here is my recommendation.

Spend the money on a good acoustic kit, decent mics, and a shield. Its going to be similar money to a digital set worth having PLUS your drummer won't be embarrassed.

By all means, digital drums are better than no drums! Ours are set to four channels. Kick, Toms, Snare, Cymbals... it gives us DECENT control and we are getting by fine until next year and our BIG stage with LIVE DRUMS!

I think i said too much, and probably had already said it.

enough for now,
travis

[SaintLewis]

Being the person leading worship most regularly in that room, let me just say that switching to an acoustic set was an absolute GOD-SEND, and I could kiss Travis & Chris & whoever else was part of that decision for it...it really brought something special to that environment. That's my 2 cents.

[maydavidj]

Yeah, I agree, there is no right answer. I'm not claiming to have "the" solution :). There are SO many different factors that make each application really different. I love playing the acoustic drums in our youth hall, and they don't sound bad either. But, the piano player and bass player have to stand right beside me on the back riser, and they are getting bombarded... :( I'd like to keep the acoustics in there (it'd be something I wouldn't have to move each week) but if we keep running the monitors so hot over the drums we're all gonna be deaf! :eek:

[bobthecanadian]

I have heard people compare playing e-drums to changing a guitar to something plastic. Well, this already happened a long time ago, and now we have what is called the electric guitar. The first few electric guitars were not 'great' but quickly became something really quite incredible. Granted, electric guitars are still made of wood, but there are also some plastic, plywood, and masonite one out there, too. They used wood because that was the technology of the time.

Fast forward a few decades and we have electronic drums. Sure, they are not the 'same' as the acoustic ones, but for what they were and what they have become... WOW!!! Technology has changed and the medium for expression has also changed. So, it only seems fitting that we have what is currnently available for electronic/digital drums.

I am sure that there a much better alternatives out there when it comes to what a drummer actually plays on, but by applying simple economics, we have what we have. I am sure that if Roland or Yamaha thought they could sell degital drum kits for $10K - $25 they would be producing something a lot more impressive.

I wouldn't think of an electric guitar as complete without an amp and I think the same way about electric drums. You gotta have a monitor system that works for you.

Just a thought for all the e-drummers out there.

Bob

PS - Although drums aren't my primary instrument, I do play. While I prefer acoustic drums I have nothing againt the 'e' version. The only thing I have a problem with is a bad mix.

PPS - Just my opinion.

[dtpuga]

Bob,
I get your point on the plastic issue with electric guitars but I would like to point out a few differences.

#1 On the guitar they didn't change the strings to plastic. (Unless its classical, but thats diferent.) The electric guitars kept the heavy strings.

#2 The electric guitar was never made to mimic the sound of the acoustic. The electric guitar was crafted to, and sounds, VERY different from an acoustic most of the time. Don't you agree? You can't really make that comparison. Digital drums, the way they are used 98% of the time, are intended to reproduce the same sound as acoustics WITHOUT all the extra noise and stuff. It's just different from the acoustic to electric guitar comparison. Turns out there is something to all that resonance coming from those heads and tins. HaHa.

I am not saying that digital drums can't ever make it. I just don't think that those guitar comparisons make a lot of sense.

Anyone else agree/disagree?

Travis

[bobthecanadian]

SPL - Sound Pressure Level, is a wonderful thing. As a guitar player, I love it when I feel of the air being pushed through the speaker(s) of my amp. The same SPL is necessary for the feeling of non-acoustic drums. Ya' gotta feel it, man! Ya' gotta feel it!

Yeah, I know there are a lot of difference between acoustic vs. electrics when it come to drums and guitars, I am not disagreeing at all. My point is simply that electronics drums have made a lot, and I do mean a LOT, of progress. I don't think they will ever truly replace 'real' drums, but with their ability to fit in and be used in small venues, and also their ability to be used in a digital studio environment, they are here to stay. Oh, yeah, the continue to make progress as well.

In regards to the issue of mixing the sound of e-drums, there is another way other than mixing straight audio. Use midi! That's what it's there for. If you run an editor or sequencer program you get pretty much any sound that you want and mix to your hearts desire. I know it isn't the same as using a few mics and mixing straight audio, but the number of options nowadays is getting to be quite impressive.

As I reflect on a little bit of what this forum is (a worship forum) I think that electronic drums are actually quite a blessing. I know that in some churches having acoustic drums with a good mic setup and a baffle/shield of some sort is standard, but a lot of churches don't have this luxury. Some simply don't have the resources, some don't have the space (ie:a multi-use facility), and some also don't have the players to make it really happen.

I guess up to this point I have sounded like I am all for electronic drums, but I am not 100% sold on them either. Their playability still needs improvement. Hard rubber doesn't have the "feel" and are really bouncy. Once ya' get your chops up on the rubber pads the chops can pretty quickly fall apart on the acoustic kit. Even with the mesh heads there is a big difference.

Maybe there is going to be a place for both acoustic and digital setups for a long time to come.

Oh, yeah, one more think to think about.

Piano vs. Keyboard

Acoustic vs. Electric Guitar/Bass

Amplified vs. not.

A Capella vs. acompanied

Singing in perfect fourths, fifths vs. occasionally singing the diablos en musica.

These are all different issues that the worshiping church has encountered in it's history. The arguments of even having drums is still debated in some churches. So, to have a discussion of whether the preference of drums is going to be acoustic or electric is actually quite a blessing and an expression of the freedom that we have in Christ. And, by the way, I am very happy to have this discussion.

[tmartin]

I started this thread and it was certainly interesting to come back and read the responses. I appreciate and respect ALL of your opinions except ONE. The person who feels like anyone who plays electronic drums are not a REAL drummer. I have to laugh at that one. Let me explain.

I began playing drums at age 12 and this month I turn 55. (At least I can get the senior discounts on food now). I played acoustic drums for years until the Roland TD-10 kit came out in the late 90's. Until the COSM technology, all the other kits were toy drums and sounded that way. I also would listen to the radio or CD tracks of the original recording and wonder why I could not get my Pearl BLX's to sound that way. Of course I couldn't because I was not running my drum sounds through thousands of dollars of reverb, compression, gateing, etc, of mixing equipment. Even though I had read several books on the art of tuning drums. With the sampling technology of today, these sounds are recorded at such high frequencies that the human ear CANNOT distinguish any difference----not even a REAL drummer. Of course if I record at $10K set of DW's AND one of the several DW sounding sets that I have in my TD20 module and play them back through a transistor radio, they will sound cheezy. The playback will be only as good as the sound system if the acoustic kit is miked. I record at home with my TD20 module and one S/P DIF cable through a Omega interface into Cubase. If I were recording an acoustic set I would have to have many inputs to come even close to how the drums should sound. Addtionally, I would have only ONE sound, with the TD20 module I have about 50 kits that I use fairly regularly to sound like the original recording. Some of you make take exception to sounding like the original recording. Well, unless I am playing to a house full of drummers, the nonmusician in the audience wants to hear the song as close to possible as to what they hear on the radio or CD.

I have had a lot of lessons and still take them to hone the talent that God gave me. They asked the late Buddy Rich (I have met him twice) why he did not play a bigger kit. His answer: "I have not learned to play what I have yet." I said that to say that some people do not like change for what ever reason. There have been many drummers who have lost their jobs because they would not move with the electronic times. I agree, no one is going to go to a concert to see a computer play the music. However, in the studio, most of the drum sounds you hear are from electronic sampling hardware. Most of the time it is NOT a drummer on the track but an engineer or keyboardist inserting loops.

Another problem I see in some of your responses are the comparison of the electronic kits. Are you comparing apples with apples? The TD20 kit is the most advanced kit on the market. I have played on the Yamaha and DDrums and they do not even come close. If you have not played on this kit then I would consider you NOT qualified to write a review.

I agree that hitting rubber pads and mesh heads are not exactly like a brass cymbals and Remo heads. Close your eyes while playing the TD20 kit to a song, listen, and you will forget that you are playing Vdrums. Record them, and I guarantee you can not distinguish them from the acoustic recording. While doing an open double stroke roll on the TD10 snare it would have a "machine gun" effect. (I do not use a lot of 32 note in my playing). On the TD20 kit it is eliminated. That is if you have good technique. If your technique is bad on acoustics, you will produce the same bad sound on the TD20 kit. On earlier electronic kits, bad technique was covered up some because the triggering was not as advanced as today.

The earlier statement about a REAL drummer reminds me of this analogy. I ride a BMW GT motorcycle. I am retired and average about 20K miles per year in the saddle. I occasionally run into a die-hard Harley guy that will even speak to me and he says, "You don't ride a motorcycle unless you ride a Harley." I say, "Let's go see your bike." The first thing I look at is his odometer. (This is after we have established that he bought it new three years ago). The odometer reads a little over 4K miles. And he tells me I don't know how to ride a motorcycle? Guess I am not a REAL motorcyclist.

We all have our individual tastes and I respect that. I do not think it is the style that God looks at so much as the HEART. It does not matter if the drummer is playing acoustic or electronic, or has the best chops in the world. If his heart is not right, then he is just a noisy drummer to God. Sure, a big acoustic kit with lots of cymbals looks "cool" on stage if that is your primary motive. However, I do not care what my kit looks like as long as I play it with the focus of helping people enter into worshipping the Living God. He gets ALL the Glory!

No, I am not on the payroll of Roland, Inc. The TD20 kit is simply an instrument that allows me to expand my voice in almost unlimited ways. And yes, I am a REAL drummer.

[fmckinnon]

Hey -
Very good response .. I bet that kit is awesome .. I have yet to hear a kit that can replicate a good open double-stroke roll (I play drums myself). Can you do brush swipes, though (haha!)

[tony c]

OK, I am NOT a drummer, although I pitch in when the regular drummer isn't around. I play much better on an electronic kit, probably because it's more compact, I have to concentrate more, and there's less flexibility (maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, it just feels that way), therefore, less opportunity to try and go off and do something beyond my meager skills, so it makes me stick with the meat-and-potatoes stuff, like keeping a solid beat!

I've asked every drummer who I've played with what they prefer - acoustic or electric. Every single one of them said acoustic, and the reason why? Acoustic drums have "soul" - they live, they breathe, they react - electronic drums are consistent (sound guys might ask, 'And this is a bad thing???').

[tmartin]

There are brush kits programmed into the module and you can do brush swipes. However, I do not like them myself. The dynamics are just not there on the ones that I have. Maybe the company Vexpressions have good sounds. I do very little brush work anyway. That reminds me, I need to keep those skills up.

Regarding every drummer choosing only acoustic sets. Well, I would think that is much too broad of a statement. Of course, it would depend on the situation. The pros like Jim Keltner, Peter Erskin, Thomas Lang, Greg Bissonette, Omar Hakim, Neil Peart, and a host of others play Roland TD20 kits. If you don't know who those drummers are I would question how advanced your playing is to begin with. Interview those guys and ask them what they think. Not some amateur who does not know how to turn an electronic kit on. Additionally, a real Brother and Integrity drummer, Carl Albrecht plays electronic drums. He records with a host of Christian artists like Baloche.

[SaintLewis]

No offense, but even though great drummers play them and endorse them, I'm always gonna go with the opinion of an average drummer on stuff like this - Neil Pert sounds good playing percussion on cardboard boxes, but churches don't often have QUITE that much talent on their team. I am interested in checking out an electric kit if it naturally were able to respond to brushes as brushes and sticks as sticks (do they make an electric snare head that could tell the difference in such things yet?), and that FEELS like a real kit - including the cymbals. I've found that the average drummer's playing changes significantly depending on the response he/she gets from the drum kit, and most electric kits just don't feel like acoustic kits. So, what would an average drummer play best on?

[tony c]

There are brush kits programmed into the module and you can do brush swipes. However, I do not like them myself. The dynamics are just not there on the ones that I have. Maybe the company Vexpressions have good sounds. I do very little brush work anyway. That reminds me, I need to keep those skills up.

Regarding every drummer choosing only acoustic sets. Well, I would think that is much too broad of a statement. Of course, it would depend on the situation. The pros like Jim Keltner, Peter Erskin, Thomas Lang, Greg Bissonette, Omar Hakim, Neil Peart, and a host of others play Roland TD20 kits. If you don't know who those drummers are I would question how advanced your playing is to begin with. Interview those guys and ask them what they think. Not some amateur who does not know how to turn an electronic kit on. Additionally, a real Brother and Integrity drummer, Carl Albrecht plays electronic drums. He records with a host of Christian artists like Baloche.

Hey, tmartin, you're right, my statement about drummers choosing acoustic over electronic WAS too broad ... my survey was only for those drummers I played with, basically a micro-sampling. Maybe someday I'll play with the guys you mentioned, some of them I know, and are tremendous drummers, and I can ask them myself.

[tmartin]

SaintLewis I would recommend that you go by a music store that carries electronic drums (i.e., Roland TD20 Kit) and compare all of the kits. Again, if you have good technique on the acoustic it will transfer to the electronic and vise versa. To me, it is all about the sound. I do NOT care what the drum looks like as long as it sounds good. Regarding the feel, if it sounds good I don't care if it feels like playing a washboard. If people in my congregation are coming to watch me play then they are there for the wrong reason. Having the sound, being inspired by the Holy Spirit, and watching the Holy Spirit work in people who express His inner working with outer worship of the Lord is what it is all about for a church musician.

[Mike Darley]

My church just purchased a set of TD-12's, and I couldn't be happier....unless, of course, we'd gotten the 20's. Ultimately, the issue is not feel or sound, the issue is providing an atmosphere of worship. If your church can get away with an acoustic set without killing the people in the front row, and creating so much stage noise that it's difficult for the team to hear each other and work together, then I'd say go with it if that's what your drummer(s) prefers. I lead worship at a small church plant (actually we're at about 150 now so I don't know if that's considered small or not) so having an acoustic set just created issues. We used to have a difficult time hearing each other both instrumentally and vocally, so when I'd try to lead, our team would often miss queues and such. Since we've gotten the Rolands this hasn't been a problem. We've also gotten quite a few comments on the sound being great. Our drummers both like playing on them. It's one thing to prefer acoustic, but a drummer should at least be willing to use them if overall it helps the worship.

Also, I recently found out that pretty much all of drums you hear on a CD are sampled. Apparently, a drummer will go in a studio, lay down the track, and the techs will go behind him and lay the sampled sound over his set.

[tmartin]

"It's one thing to prefer acoustic, but a drummer should at least be willing to use them [electronic drums] if overall it helps the worship." (insert mine)

Steve, you summarized this entire thread in that one sentence.

[C Hutcheson]

I've got the Yamaha DXtreme II-S electric kit in my studio with the DW5000 pedal / dbl. pedal, and it's done a great job with one exception - the middle crash keeps choking itself if you don't hit it with the tip of the stick. Hit it correctly, and it's not a problem.

As far as sounds, I like the Yamaha because the samples are based off the Motif series keyboards. I haven't played much with the Roland electric kits, so I can't comment on them. I'm sure there's pros & cons for both Yamaha & Roland. However, I am a trained sound engineer & musician of 25 years, so I feel qualified to speak on the products that I use regularly. The Yamaha sounds are great. For daily playing, I can't say how well the heads & pads would hold out with a church or gigging situation.

For recording, I have found the Yamaha kit to be very satisfactory. Good drummers have come through my studio & played on the kit and have always had great things to say about it. The only drummers who complain are the ones who can't even keep good time, so that tells me a lot about the kit. The cymbals have a great tone and sizzle to them, and the pads are consistent. Plus, you can customize all types of parameters within the "brain" to suit your playing style. AND, I like the little red knobs on each pad that you can twist to tune or program to actually change sound patches. Convenient when going from a big, fat wood snare to a high pitched piccolo sound.

Concerning "live" playing, there's usually two main aspects that you have to watch for:

1) The player who's playing.

2) The environment.

And let's not forget the always potentially dangerous...

3) The sound guy / gal.

These factors contribute more to the quality of sound than any crappy acoustic OR electric kit combined while being performed by a serious player.

I'm curious to hear Roland's new electric drum kit that was just introduced. I've seen the street price on those for $799, and it looks really cool. I'm sure the sounds are great.

[tmartin]

I certainly agree with your statements. If you don't have your technique and music ability worked out on the acoustic kit, then you will still sound bad on the electronic kits. Especially the TD-20 kit because it picks up almost every thing. Regarding sounds, I do not like the factory sounds of the TD-20 module. If you are good at programming then the sky is the limit on what you can do with the TD-20 brain. However, I simply went to this site that has some excellent sounds at a very modest price http://www.vexpressionsltd.com/index.html

Check those sounds out. Again, I appreciate your comment to this thread.

[Kevin E.]

It all depends on the building,Soundman and the members. Our church is in a constant tug of war about this. We have a middle aged base but many older people who disagree with real drums. It depends on building its shape, size how it echos. My church has a wierd shape so echo of real drums is terrible. soundman it depends of if your soundman can mix in e-drums. It al depends. I as a drummer can not stand e-drums. ( Notice that the drummer has no say in it)

[Mike Darley]

What kind of e-drums do you have? We have the TD-12's, which both of our drummers like. I asked them what they preferred before we made our decision. I mean, they're obviously not their first choice, but faced with the prospect of having to lightly tap an acoustic set, or wailing away on e-drums, they prefer the e-drums. I play drums as well and to be sure if I had my druthers I'd have an acoustic set and be able to let loose, but in most church settings this really isn't an option. As a guitar player, I'd like to break out my electric and crank my amp to 11, but that's not really an option in my setting, either. I mean it's really all about making due with what you've been given in your setting.

As far as your people having some kind of issue with real drums; is it a preference or do they think that drums are inherently evil? That's a whole other can of worms.

[worshiptrench]

We'll have a e-drum burning service in the parking lot for all of you who still hold to the delusion that
1) your drummer finds any joy playing them
2) the sound response is anywhere near a set of well compressed and tuned acoustic drums.

We handed our roland electrics to the kids ministry about 4 years ago and will never go back. To quote Heston, "We'll give up [real drums] when they pry them from our cold dead fingers."

Of course if you decide to bring yours to the burn, you'll have to bring some cash to pay for your carbon footprint offset.

[fmckinnon]

Sign me up ...

And Jordan - this post requires that you watch the first 3 minutes of my Worship Confessional #11 (http://www.fredmckinnon.com/myblog/2007/10/16/worship-confessional-11-emergency-surgery/), subtitled "Emergency Surgery" in honor of our crappy electronic kick drum!

[Mike Darley]

We'll have a e-drum burning service in the parking lot for all of you who still hold to the delusion that
1) your drummer finds any joy playing them
2) the sound response is anywhere near a set of well compressed and tuned acoustic drums.

LOL!!! Come on, bud. Cut me some slack here. We're a small church and there's just no way a set of acoustic drums would have worked for us. Trust me, I asked my drummers which they'd prefer and they liked the idea of e-drums. I mean, they may be regretting it now, and don't want to tell me, but they said they didn't mind them. Personally, I don't prefer playing on them, but they work really well given our context.


Of course if you decide to bring yours to the burn, you'll have to bring some cash to pay for your carbon footprint offset.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! I almost spit water through my nose when I read that.

[Kevin E.]

Sign me up ...

And Jordan - this post requires that you watch the first 3 minutes of my Worship Confessional #11 (http://www.fredmckinnon.com/myblog/2007/10/16/worship-confessional-11-emergency-surgery/), subtitled "Emergency Surgery" in honor of our crappy electronic kick drum!

When you say crappy set of e-drums think of what you and church gave me :D They are the worst but they get the job done... I guess!

I would love to give you my set and my churches but neither one have a real set to play after you burn them so can't.

[chipshot0701]

I miss our last drummer. He had the Rolands and moved away to Iowa Hawkeye! Uni. in Iowa City, He could tweek the sound on those babies and create some awesome sounds for us.

Our new man has an acoustic set that we just bought him. Its not as cool as the e-set!

I understand that the FEEL isn't the same but the versatility has to be taken into consideration. From being able to run em through the monitors and the mixer. To being able to push a button and wah-lah! New drum sounds.

BTW.... I've never played a drum in my life but I have listened. I couldnt tell the difference in sound from His roland to the acoustic except for the uncontrolable noice level in the acoustic.

mike

[Mike Darley]

BTW.... I've never played a drum in my life but I have listened. I couldnt tell the difference in sound from His roland to the acoustic except for the uncontrolable noice level in the acoustic.

Yeah the interesting thing that I found out is that pretty much all of the drums your hear on a CD are sampled, except of course live cuts. By that I mean the drummer would probably play on an acoustic set, but the guy doing the mixing will go back and digitally lay a sampled sound over each drum sound. A buddy of mine who was studio drummer told be about this. He's also the one who recommended we go with e-drums. He's the best drummer I know, and is coincidentally the only drummer I've ever seen made an acoustic drum set sound good in a small church setting.

It's kind of like using a POD versus an amp on stage. If you're a purist you might not like having to go with a POD, but for the sake of the overall stage noise a POD is the best bet.

[dtpuga]

One thing that live sets have over e-drums is durability and reliability. We have a nice set of Roland/pintech v-drums in our sanctuary. We have had it 4 years and can't seem to keep a kick head running right, we are on our third. We had to do 'emergency surgery' on our kick head between two of our services this week because a trigger cracked. Live drums don't have triggers break. Yes you have to replace things and maintain things but they are reliable. Even if you bust a hole in a head you can rotate it around and aren't left stranded. On top of the drum head triggers is the laughable cymbal triggers. You can hear the stick hit the rubber before you hear the sound trigger sometimes.

Anyway, thats my vent after an e-drum induced super stressful Sunday AM.

[dtpuga]

I always love when people mention that most CDs have sampled drums. Not that it isn't true, many studio recordings are sampled. But that is like saying that Jeff Gordon drives the same "stock car" that I can buy at the car dealership down the road. The Rainbow Warrior has done a few modifications to that engine to make it run better. Such is also true with things like sample tank and all the other studio drum resources out there. Those are LIVE drums sounds that are RECORDED and MASTERED and then CAREFULLY laid in place on the original drum live recording. They are matching dynamics and touch and all that. It is also USUALLY done because the drum kit used in the recording just didn't sound tight enough. Drum samples in the studio are a far cry from what you buy to use on stage (unless your church has got some SERIOUS disposable worship budget income).

You do see a lot of hip-hop acts, such as the Roots using e-drums now. I think that is a different sound than the average church worship set though. Hip-hop demands a very tight and constant sound especially with the funky kick sounds and high hat grooves that are prevalent.

All that to say, lets compare apples to apples here. We can't use the studio drum recordings to justify an e-drum kit on stage. It is what it is. A cheap and effective way to kill stage volume and gain control in a house mix. Especially in the average church sanctuary. We cant' wait to say bye bye to ours after 11 years and three different e-drum kits. However, the versatility is nice. We are also considering keeping the drum brain and two of or three of the triggers in the new setup along side of our Mapex Orion series drums. That way our drummer can give us some of the non-standard sounds from the Roland like congas, chimes and fun stuff like that.

Anyway, just trying to present the other side of the coin here.
Travis

[Mike Darley]

dtpuga,

I don't know, man. You obviously know more than I do about this stuff. I'm going off of what a guy I know said. He used to be a studio drummer (still does some work from time to time, from what I understand), and is also the guru of all things drum and sound related. He has the sweetest acoustic set I've ever seen in real life, all fully mics, very tight. The thing sounds awesome. He really does know what he's doing.

That's actually why I went to him. I was hoping he'd talk me out of an e-set. He told me that at his church he's actually using e-drums. He said that they're obviously not going to be a drummers first choice, but in a small church setting they are really the way to go. He said that I'd have to spend some time with them, but I can get some pretty nice sounds out of them.

The only real objection I'd heard at that time was that the "feel" wasn't that same. Now you're telling me there are reliability issues. I guess we'll have to see. I know I've spent some time tweaking the setting on the drums and I've gotten them to sound pretty close to an acoustic set, and I'm pretty picky about these things.

Anyway, I hope we don't run into any reliability issues.

[dtpuga]

Stevie,

There is obviously more than one way to skin a cat.

Sounds to me like you got some good advice from a guy with good experience. I would ignore me if I were you. We really had BAD experience with our e-drums that we were VERY excited to get when we got them. (I was the youth pastor then, not the TD.) There is a good possibility that we just simply did not buy a good model or something. We got them at a steep discount through a music store owner in our church, I think we spent about 1500 on them.

For the sake of this thread it would be great to hear what your experiences are with yours. The make and model obviously along with any settings you have found successful would be nice to hear.

-Travis

[Mike Darley]

The kind we have are Roland TD-12's. As far as experience goes, it's been nothing but positive. They have a great sound to them. They feel decent to play. Again, not like honest to goodness acoustics, but the mesh heads aren't bad at all.. The cymbals are surprisingly good. There are different sounds for the bell, the bow, or crashing the side. The biggest difference is the stage noise. My drummers can play as hard as they want and all we have to do is turn them down if they're too loud. In a previous facility with acoustics I was constantly having to tell the guys to try to play quieter. They'd just kind of look at me as if to say, "I'm trying over here, man." It would be like having an amp on stage and not being able to turn the volume below 5. If you try to adjust your playing it just won't sound right. Now there's no problem. Things sound great on stage, and we don't have the people up front complaining that the drums are too loud, and the people in back complaining that the drums are too quiet.

As far as tweaking goes, I just basically sat on day and messed with the settings. I'm kind of particular about that kind of stuff so after a while spent on each drum and cymbal they sounded really good.

Anyway, I really think the e-kit was the way to go for us, but I do understand the preference for an acoustic set. We're going to be in a temp facility for the next few years, but if we're going to move to a larger facility, I'd like to be able to move to a mic'd acoustic set, if we can.

[fmckinnon]

Hey guys -

As much as I hate e-drums, I'd agree - unless you have a decent sized, acoustical-friendly room in your church, e-drums are the best way to go, albeit - GOOD QUALITY ones.

Even with our e-drums that I hate, two Sundays ago I wasn't leading worship and I commented on how tight and punchy those drums sounded .. from a "sound" perspective, they are good. It's just the various issues you get out of the brain - cymbal crash MIDI polyphony crunches, inability to get more expressive dynamics, etc.

E-Drums are triggered by MIDI signals. MIDI has 127 values associated with "volume" or "velocity" ... 0 is off. 127 is as hard (or as loud) as it can go. You gotta believe a real instrument has a much broader dynamic range than this. But again, if you have a smaller room, you'll ALWAYS have issues with the volume problem.

Especially because drums are meant to be HIT. If you constantly hit them softer, they just don't ring and don't sound nearly as good. That's not an excuse to beat the living daylights out of'em ... but a good techniique and attack makes drums sound better.