Internal Click

[milepost13]

So, we're in the advanced stages of auditioning a young lady as a vocalist with the band. She's got a great voice, picks up harmonies really well on her own, good stage presence, etc.

The problem is, it seems her internal click does not function properly. She has serious issues with feeling a song and coming in (vocally) at the right time, and keeping on time.

I've talked with about this, hoping to figure out what the issue is. She recognizes the problem, but says that, when she's singing in the congregation, there are no issues. Before joining our church, she has sung plenty of times on stage in other churches.

I first thought that, maybe this was a self-confidence issue, but I'm beginning to think it's something more (like her internal click is broken and can't be fixed). I finally had her tap her foot during a song ("How Great Is Our God" which she knows by heart, but was still having troubles with) last night, and that seemed to help, but it still wasn't perfect.

I've explained to her that I can't use her on stage in a worship gathering as a vocalist in our band (she's in our worship choir already, and again, doesn't show this problem there) until we can resolve this issue.

I'm up for continuing to work with her, but now I'm wondering if this is something that can even be fixed? I've never come across this problem before with a vocalist who seemed to have everything else together, and I can't wrap my brain around the problem because, like most musicians/vocalists, I simply feel the song without having to count and second guess. Any ideas or experience with something like this?

Nate

[mikeymo1741]

"Why was the lead singer standing outside?

She couldn't find the key, and she didn't know where to come in."

Seriously, I've run into this... in fact, on a fairly regular basis. None of our singers play an instrument with any regularity, and will sometimes either just stand there while we play the intro again, or will jump in in the middle of the intro.

I'd suggest asking two things: First, is there a way she can get a visual cue from someone as to when to come in, until she gets more comfortable with it?

The question is "are you making too much of it?" And by that I mean is it really that much of a distraction that you can't work around it, at least in the short term. One of the downfalls of being a musician is that you hear everything. Ninety-plus percent of your congregation won't hear a minor miscue, and they should not be focusing on that anyway. And perhaps by making so important, you are feeding into her nervousness. Not a criticism, just a suggestion.

[Mike Darley]

It might be nerves and overthinking things. I'm reminded of a pro golfer who was asked if he inhaled, exhaled, or held his breath during his stroke. He said he didn't know, but he'd find out. The next several strokes he shanked. The problem was only corrected when he stopped thinking about it. With these situations often the more you think about it the worse it gets. If this is indeed the problem, then the issue is how you get her to stop overthinking it. Easier said than done.
I'm sure you guys have a pretty high standard musically and this can intimidate people, even if they've sung at other churches. Stylistically it could be different as well. If she's used to a more traditional style that could throw things off. In the choir setting the conductor probably gives physical queues so won't have the problem there. Also, it's easier hide in a crowd. What I mean is she may not be coming in from the beginning in a choir setting, but no one notices because she's not the only one singings.

I guess your choices are to either work with her or move on.

[milepost13]

is there a way she can get a visual cue from someone as to when to come in, until she gets more comfortable with it?


That's the point. I can't let her on stage until she gets past needing those visual cues to come in (and to keep going, which is also the issue)...it would be a huge distraction to everyone to have her watching another leader. Our other vocalists are not "musicians" (although, I hold to the school of thought that vocalists are indeed musicians in their own right), but they never have this issue.

I realize that we have a certain standard, and I also realize that other churches don't have the same standard, which is OK. We believe that every member of our church has been shaped to do one thing (many times, more than one thing) incredibly well when it comes to serving the body and reaching our community, and it is our responsibility to help people find that one thing. I already know of a few other things that this young lady does incredibly well, and she just may not be shaped to sing with the band.

Trust me when I say I'm being very patient and compassionate with this situation, and did not even address it until it was obvious that it was a serious problem. We have a great line of communication, and I hope she's being honest with me when she tells me that she feels comfortable with what we're doing. There's not much more I can do if the issue is stemming from an intimidation related to our band/church.

Knowing her background, she's very used to our style of worship. Our worship choir is about as casual as it gets, without anyone "conducting", and it's small enough to know when somebody's not pulling their weight. Like I said, I think it's either a self-confidence issue that she's probably not going to overcome or just some kind of fluke where she is just always going to have timing issues.

Thanks for the replies so far, and I'll look forward to reading more suggestions.

Nate

[milepost13]

I agree that it could be overthinking things, which probably boils down to either a self-confidence issue or a perfectionist issue.

Nate

[russhutto]

Or she could just have difficulty with rhythm.

It might just be camouflaged a bit better when she sings in a group.

[Singer4Christ87]

"One of the downfalls of being a musician is that you hear everything.

Wow is this true, sometimes I want to ignore the minor detail (or sometimes major), but you just can't cause it drives you crazy, or doesn't sound right.

How long have you been working with her?

[sherra1011]

I have this same problem with a guitarist. I've tried everything I can think of and it doesn't seem to help. Could be the nerves thing.....
I notice that when he's just jammin' by himself he does great and can "feel" the music, but when we all come together it's like he turns into another musician......

Have you tried recording to show her where to come in? Repetitiveness might help....just a thought.

[milepost13]

been working, off and on, with her for a few months. It hasn't been intensive...we have no timeline, and I've simply pointed out the issues to her and have given her a few suggestions, hoping that either her confidence would come around or she would become familiar enough with our music to learn the timing of everything, neither of which has happened.

I don't want to devote a lot of time during our rehearsals to trying to fix a problem with any one person, and I also can't spend a lot of extra time outside of practice working one-on-one with her (for multiple reasons).

I'm hoping that, either a solution will present itself or we'll figure out that there is no solution and move on. She comes to practice and sits in with us, which isn't any kind of a distraction or extra work for any of us, but I don't want to keep her hopes up if it is a hopeless situation.

Nate

[milepost13]

Have you tried recording to show her where to come in? Repetitiveness might help....just a thought.

she has access to MP3's of all of our music, so she can listen and practice as much as she wants, which I believe she does.

Nate

[Smitty]

Hey Nate ... does she play an instrument?

Smitty

[milepost13]

she can play the guitar and keys a bit, I believe.

Nate

[NLoomis]

Ok, here's what you do:

Get a stage monitor with the lyrics on it. Then, have a bouncing ball highlight each word as its meant to be sung.

Seriously though, it is possible to help someone develop an internal sense of time. Probably the place to start would be where classical music training starts. Can she sight sing? If not, maybe a basic drum book. Either way, the place to start is with a method book that has her start with quarter notes, either singing or clapping. Use a metronome. Then move on to more complex rhythms, keeping the metronome. It helps to understand where the beat is before trying to subdivide it. These books, if I remember correctly, are usually called something like "Basic Method for _____."
Anyone who took band or chorus in middle school probably remembers clapping along to a rhythm as a class. Many pick this up naturally, but others need to start with quarter notes and practice.

Hope that helps.

Nathan

[lytesource]

I've been having a similar problem with a vocalist. We're trying a metronome and learning to read basic music; clapping out the time etc. Not enough time to know if it's working but I'll try and let you know.

[milepost13]

we just don't have that kind of time to put into it...

Nate

[NLoomis]

Suggest lessons. I guess about the only thing you can do is humbly explain the importance of good rhythm, explain that she'll need it to be on team, and then recommend a private teacher. Maybe preferably a guitar teacher, who will for certain care about timing and rhythm. Plus, then she'll also play an instrument.

Nathan

[windbag]

The problem is, it seems her internal click does not function properly. She has serious issues with feeling a song and coming in (vocally) at the right time, and keeping on time.

It never stopped me...

It sounds promising that you've been able to address it without hurt feelings, so it sounds like there's hope if it's just a case of practising, not lack of ability. We can be brutal in rehersals (practice is what you do at home). If someone is off and we're not sure, we'll go down the line and isolate the guilty party, then try to fix it.

We'll typically play guitar only, with keys playing the part that the individual needs to sing, then add the other players until we get it right. That takes a bunch of time, but once it catches, it sticks. We will repeat a line dozens of times to burn it into our brains. There are times when, by the time we introduce it to the congregation, we're all sick of it.

I'm not sure that any of that is helpful other than to say I don't have any tricks. Sometimes it's just hard work.

[worshiptheKing]

We have a similar issue on our team, only with more than one. Only it seems that your person has a better attitude than mine might. When I hear something that is "off" and bring it up people act offended. Thing is they have encouraged me to bring things to their attention so that they can improve. What do you call that? Contradictory attitudes? Anyway I will probably post a new topic on this and other issues I'm dealing with.

[worshiptrench]

One "trick" we do with soloists when there is a weird turnaround or intro in terms of bars.

My or Brent's position on stage allows eye contact very naturally. I'll give them a simple guitar neck up and down (almost like a conductor would very subtle) with a "sing it girl/dude" look. If am was a free in my movements on stage before no one in the congregation realizes it is a cue. Just looks like a moment of vocalist/instrumentalist connection on stage.

Of course if they have trouble on a simple four bar turnaround, i cannot do it everytime because people would start being distracted noticing a pattern saying "What is that guy doing?"

[milepost13]

Well, the problem is still there, and we've spent the past 4 months trying to find a solution to no avail. Assuming she's coming to practice tonight, I'm having the conversation with her to tell her that she's more than welcome to continue coming to practice, but I can't use her on stage as long as she has this problem and that I can' spend any more time during practice trying to help her (I'll word it a little more sensitively).

Thanks for the good discussion and ideas.

Nate

[worshiptrench]

Use the leadership star and let us know how it goes.