How much time do we allow the Lord in corporate worship?

[yod1948]

I couldn't resist. Saw a branch of the forum that had no topics and had to jump in!!!

Often I'll spend time worshipping the Lord in music for hours by myself and find that the deeper into that time I go, the greater the revelation and intimacy becomes.

But most services are more structured than that... LOL...so, I have to "condense" the worship down to 45 minutes tomorrow. Oy...that's going to be tough!?!

:-)



And now I'm just curious...how much time do you "fill" at your church?








:)

[russhutto]

Great question.

15 minutes.

I know some of you are going, "how could you possibly worship the Lord corporately in 15 minutes?!!"

Well, our entire gathering is God-focused and we teach our folks that worshiping corporately is so much more than just song. Every prayer, every scripture studied, every hug, every smile is an act of worship to God.

We intentionally teach that the 6 days outside of Sunday are better opportunities to worship "deeply" because there is more opportunity to be one on one with God. Like any other conversation, the more people you add to the mix, the less intimate it becomes. So we teach strongly that worship begins in the heart, flows into the home, and then overflows into the corporate setting.

I love how you said that you can worship (I'm guessing you're specifically talking about in a musical sense) for hours on end and then feel the "crunch" when it comes to condensing it in on Sundays.

If anybody has the right to feel that way it's our worship band here. Many of us are from more expressive churches that worshiped for 45 minutes to an hour and even longer, but we've intentionally structured our gathering as just the very tip of the iceberg of a week of worship. We've got 15 minutes to rock it. I know God is pleased. And people are genuinely encouraged in our times, but it's really, really special when we have our monthly nights of worship, which go on for about 2 hours or so.

Not that doing that each Sunday would be a bad thing, but it's really special when we gather specifically to worship God in music and communion.

[yod1948]

it's really, really special when we have our monthly nights of worship, which go on for about 2 hours or so.

Not that doing that each Sunday would be a bad thing, but it's really special when we gather specifically to worship God in music and communion.



That sounds great to me actually...

If we have a "special" time to soak in His presence, then it will remain special. Going for hours every week for the sake of going for hours would probably get old quickly for people who have limited time with their familes on weekends.

I believe that Yeshua's ability to heal someone in an instant in the afternoon had a lot to do with Him going into the mountains to pray by Himself in the mornings. The power of the Holy Spirit isn't worked up over time...yet we can't expect the Lord to show up within our rigidly scheduled "holy programs" apart from a full-time relationship either. It sounds like that is what your church is intentionally cultivating. yay!

But we have probably all been a part of services where it was so rigidly scheduled that there was no allowance for the Holy Spirit to minister apart from a few measely minutes though. That always grieved me.

Please understand that I do love studying under an anointed teacher who has labored over bringing a Word from the Throne...but Yeshua didn't come to make us "smart" so there should be an equal focus on times of simply enjoying His presence as 2 or more are gathered in His Name.

As a worship leader, it's probably no surprise that I consider the worship time the most important time of a service.

LOL

OK...anyone else care to opine about the length of time we give the Lord in our times together?

[dtpuga]

20-25 minutes out of 70 on the average. Sermon usually gets 35-40. The rest is annoucements, video, transitions. I wish we could get it to more like 30 and 30.

[fmckinnon]

Travis, me too - imagine that!

[milepost13]

We view and teach and practice that every moment of our gatherings can and should be worship. We also believe that, because it's less than 1/2 of 1% of our week, and we should be worshipping in every moment of our week, while it's an important hour, it's just one hour.

Therefore, we don't get too caught up in trying to figure out the perfect recipe for the perfect worship service. One week, we may spend more time doing one thing, and the next week, we're onto something else. The cool thing about God is, He speaks to us outside of the church walls.

Nate

[BillyChia]

I know some of you are going, "how could you possibly worship the Lord corporately in 15 minutes?!!"

Well, our entire gathering is God-focused and we teach our folks that worshiping corporately is so much more than just song. Every prayer, every scripture studied, every hug, every smile is an act of worship to God.

Completely agree - our whole Sunday morning experience is worship to God.

[yod1948]

I'm curious about how many of you have ever gotten outside of the USA? I have friends in Europe, South America, Africa, Asia, and the south Pacific who think nothing of praying together for 3 or 4 hours at a time. They will worship the Lord without looking at a clock. Oh, the things we could learn from them...

What I see in America are churches that design a holy program that God must fit into so we can rush into His presence between 8:17 and 8:32. I'm not saying that is the case in every church but this seems problematic to me, ok? There are times when we must wait on the Holy Spirit to come in full glory

On my first tour of Israel in 2001 we were so busy that I didn't really have any sense of this being the "Holy Land". We would get up early, walk all day around the "holy" sites and say some short prayers, sing a few songs, maybe do some shopping, have dinner in a nice place and go to bed late.

I kept wanting to experience more and would find times to pray in my hotel room but it never seemed like enough. Finally most of the tour group went home to the USA while 3 of us stayed and went to Eilat on the Red Sea. One morning I woke up at 4 AM and walked into the mountains.

I was there for many hours praying. After the 7th hour, there was a visitation from the Lord that was "different" than anything I had experienced before. I could hear the Holy Spirit with clarity...and was deeply refreshed spiritually. The things He told me that day are still being manifest 7 years later.

What if I had stopped in the 6th hour? Was the Lord there? Of course HE was!
But my ability to see/hear Him was hindered by my own schedule until that time. We've all had these kind of mountain-top experiences...did they come in an instant and on our time-table?

We ought to be completely enveloped in His manifest presence throughout the week. We have a calling/responsibility to be near Him at all times; but not everyone in the congregation may have that same disposition. Many of them are trying to "rush" into His presence without any waiting or sacrifice. After all, it's the American way to get things when we want them and at the cheapest price!

I believe that this is what we need to be showing the congregation by example as we come before the Lord. Resting in Him means we aren't in a hurry to end the time we have in His presence.

Listening to a sermon requires no waiting but listening the Holy Spirit could require that we operate on His schedule instead our own. I would hope that most of our congregations have some allowance for going long if there is a visitation of holiness...but I wonder how many congregations allow enough time for that to happen in the first place?

Quite often we will sense the Lord wanting the body to minister to each other and the music service morphs into a prayer/ministry time that could go on until HE is finished. This seems to be more common in places that don't have self-imposed time pressure.

I have found that most salvation decisions occur during the worship music & ministry time. After all, if someone can't humble themselves in worship to Him, are they truly His?

There is a common theme that keeps being repeated here; everything we do is worship, and I completely agree! A study of the various sacrifices of the Torah speak clearly of this truth.

However, if the time we corporately worship Him in music is no different than any other time then what is the purpose of doing this at all? Why were there Levites assigned to lead worship at the Temple who sang or played music? Why are people that sing or play instruments called "worship leaders" at all?

If we agree that there is something supernatural about worshipping the Lord in music, then I will repeat the question in this light. How long do we allow the Holy Spirit to minister in corporate worship?

Speaking as someone who usually has the privalege and liberty to interupt whatever "holy program" has been planned by the pastor, I wonder how many of us are allowed that same freedom? How many would step into that without fear of reprimand?

There is certainly nothing wrong with having a structure if it allows enough time for people to wait upon the Lord...so another way of asking the question would be "are there allowances for the Lord outside of our structured time?"

[milepost13]

A few issues I have with your way of thinking, yod:

1) America is different. Some of it's crap, some of it's awesome. Although I agree with some of what you say, be careful of making judgment from your view from another culture.

2) If I read you correctly, you're implying that God's presence (or at least some part of His presence) is something that isn't always with us...from what I believe of NT Christianity, I am always in the presence of God. I can no longer "enter" or exit His presence. God doesn't "come" and go...He is here, and we simply have to learn to live with that understanding always in our hearts and minds.

3) You box God in just as much when you tell me that He'll "show up" in 7 hours as opposed to 7 seconds. God is bigger than any of our worship systems, and He can and will use a 1 hour worship service just as He'll use a 24 hour service.

4) I've found that most salvations occur out in the community, when people share their God lives with their families, friends and neighbors. If we're hoping for salvation to primarily come in the church building, during our musical corporate worship time, we're missing out on something HUGE.

5) There is a lot we can learn and cherish from the OT systems of worship, but you can't convince me that we are expected to use those same systems today. The veil has been torn.

I appreciate the fact that you appear to be engaging in these discussions with a humble attitude, but still, you also appear to me to be very dogmatic about things that I just don't believe to be true. I think this is one discussion that we're all got to recognize can be approached in several different ways, none of which may be wrong.

Nate

[mjdaniel]

Our worship times are general 20-25 minutes. We usually cover 3-4 songs in that time, with a special prayer time where people can come to the front for prayer. I used to have a really hard time imagining 20 minutes being enough, but that was really about met getting the feelings out of it I wanted.

Our house jumps into worship on the first song - everything else past that is just good times for us - but the Lord is worshiped from the beginning. We have quarterly services that are about 1.5-2.0 hours just for worship.

mjd

[yod1948]

A few issues I have with your way of thinking, yod:

I didn't realize my "way of thinking" would be an issue. I'm just posting from my experiences and wondering if anyone can relate. I'd like to respond to some of the things that you've taken issue with only because I appreciate the dialogue. Please don't think I'm trying to argue with you...only stating the perspective of a worship leader who crosses denominational lines on a regular basis.

I'm not trying to be confrontational when I state what I have found to be true. If your experience is different, I have no problem celebrating that and accepting that our God is multi-dimensional in the ways He works. By the same token, I hope you would allow the same grace towards me to say what I've seen without taking offense?




1) America is different. Some of it's crap, some of it's awesome. Although I agree with some of what you say, be careful of making judgment from your view from another culture.

You will see the Lord more evidently in the lives of persecuted believers than you will through a seminary degree.

How many people do you personally know that are risking their life to follow Jesus in America? How many people do you personally know that risk being arrested for simply being faithful to tell others about Him? When you meet these people, you get a feel for how shallow we can be in America.

Yes, I agree that there are many great things about my homeland...but let's not wear rose-colored glasses, ok? On the average, the American church has grown fat, lazy, and looks very much like secular society.

The culturally-christian-church in America has been exporting a gospel of greed and idolotry that is easily recognizable outside of our borders. It isn't as easy to see from Oklahoma, so I do understand why it might upset an American that I'd have the audacity to mention it.

But I assure you that I'm not being anti-American...I'm being pro-Jesus.









2) If I read you correctly, you're implying that God's presence (or at least some part of His presence) is something that isn't always with us...from what I believe of NT Christianity, I am always in the presence of God. I can no longer "enter" or exit His presence. God doesn't "come" and go...He is here, and we simply have to learn to live with that understanding always in our hearts and minds.


I apologize if that is what I communicated. I thought I was being clear when I said; "What if I had stopped in the 6th hour? Was the Lord there? Of course HE was! But my ability to see/hear Him was hindered by my own schedule until that time"

So my point was/is that we need to make time to focus on Him. As someone in leadership at your church, you may not have that problem but what about the people who aren't in the ministry that come through the doors every week?





3) You box God in just as much when you tell me that He'll "show up" in 7 hours as opposed to 7 seconds. God is bigger than any of our worship systems, and He can and will use a 1 hour worship service just as He'll use a 24 hour service.

I agree...and apologize if you got the impression I said otherwise. Most services I've been a part of are structured and have a usual time for start & end. I'm certainly not speaking against having a one-hour service or a 15 minute service if that is what the Holy Spirit has decided works best in your community.

I clarified the question here; "There is certainly nothing wrong with having a structure if it allows enough time for people to wait upon the Lord...so another way of asking the question would be "are there allowances for the Lord outside of our structured time?"

Russ spoke about how they have a special time for just enjoying the Lord's presence once a month, for example.






4) I've found that most salvations occur out in the community, when people share their God lives with their families, friends and neighbors. If we're hoping for salvation to primarily come in the church building, during our musical corporate worship time, we're missing out on something HUGE.


I certainly wouldn't disagree...so I'll clarify.

Within the congregationally structured time we give to the Lord, I have found most people who come to faith make that decision during the music time a.k.a "worship time"

An altar call done later usually only seals a decision made during that time.






5) There is a lot we can learn and cherish from the OT systems of worship, but you can't convince me that we are expected to use those same systems today. The veil has been torn.


I don't know what you're talking about here. Where did I say anything about a veil? Still, these things are the examples we have been given in the Word.

I really don't understand what opposition you would have to mentioning these examples?




I think this is one discussion that we're all got to recognize can be approached in several different ways, none of which may be wrong.


I hope that I haven't implied any condemnation for those of you who are limited in time at your congregation. Yes, the Lord can/will work in people who are humbly seeking Him...and He can do it in an instant.

Yet at the same time there are many examples in the Word of saints waiting on the Lord. Why would they do that?

So if it is being "dogmatic" to say that we can't always rush into His presence and just expect that He is going to work within our allotted timeframe, then I guess I am guilty of having that opinion.

And, in an opinion based on lots of experience in many different denominations over 19 years, there is quite often too much focus in America on holy programs instead of the Holy Spirit.

I'm not necessarily speaking about your church in particular, ok?


Shalom?

[skyescraper]

Wow, yod and milepost, you both make such good points. I'm on the edge of my seat to read more!

[milepost13]

Wow, yod and milepost, you both make such good points. I'm on the edge of my seat to read more!

Nope...I've said my piece. I'll just bite my tongue from here out on this one.

Nate

[russhutto]

We can and should learn from other believers around the world. Problem is that Americans live in a totally different culture than many of the believers you mention, Yod.

It's sad actually. We live in such a great nation (that I love by the way) that our lifestyle and currents of culture actually are a barrier to true surrender. No one doubts that, at least if they are honest.

But because of that we have to approach sharing our faith and even our worship settings differently than those in different cultures. Is it the best case scenario? Definitely not, but it's the challenge of walking in relationship and building one another up in our faith communities that comes right along with living in this culture.

The average westerner won't sit still for longer than an hour and a half/two hours. They just won't. Sad? Yes. But we have to work within those parameters.

That's where those "special" moments come in. We, as a church at large, have to encourage and even spur our members on to living faith the other 6 days of the week. I know it's an almost impossible task, but when our faith families get a hold of the empowering fact that they can "meet" God any time, any place our Sunday gatherings can be focused more on teaching them how to live loud and to celebrate the stories of God working in and through them during the week.

If we're not "waiting" on God outside of the corporate setting as leaders we cannot expect our members to do it inside the corporate gathering. We have to live out, teach, and challenge our family to seek God EVERY DAY, not just on Sunday.

Yod, I know you're not talking about cramming all that seeking and waiting into a Sunday gathering. I appreciate that.

But we've done it in America. We've tried to package everything up neatly into a neat little convenient bundle for everyone, which goes back to the convenience driven culture we're a part of.

I also believe this discussion will have 2 main flows of idea involved. Those who lean towards a more "spontaneous" moving of the Holy Spirit and those who lean towards a more "planned out" moving of the Holy Spirit.

Both have merit. The problem is when we exalt one form of His moving over the other. They are both good and needed in our gatherings. No one can contain the wind, but we know for a fact the wind blows. It's the best of both worlds.

We need to be strategic in PLANNING to reach others for Jesus in our gatherings and ultimately in our lived out lives. We need to be open to the SPONTANEOUS moves of the Spirit to change our plans, or even to energize our plans in our gatherings and lived out lives.

The Holy Spirit isn't constrained only to moving spontaneously and is definitely not dependent either upon the plans of mankind...yet He chooses to use mankind in both ways throughout all of history.

[beatnik]

Yod,

I like your story of walking into the mountains and praying. In my type A/ADD driven world I would relish such an opportunity and sometimes when I am home alone, I can pick up my instrument and worship while singing my prayers to God. Granted I don't go for 7 hours but occasionally I do get a block of time that will range from an hour to 3 hours and it is there that I find rest.

To your initial question of how much time do we allow the Lord in corporate worship.

We are a medium sized church with one service and we always plan our worship schedule with wiggle room. Initially we had it set where if the pastor runs long, then I will release the congregation early, if I run long, the pastor cuts his message a little. But now we have come to the place of if we run long, then yeah, we ran long but God was glorified, His people fed, and so what if we are in the back of the line at Luby's, it will do us good to stand up and burn a few calories.

For example, just last week after the sermon during Amazing Grace, one of the lay leaders of the church came forward and called people to come forward for prayer if they felt led. It was completely spontaneous and several people with deep needs came down to the front to be prayed over by the elders of the church.

This does not happen every week but it does rock my world when God is demonstrating his work in one of my brother's or sister's lives.

So in a nutshell, we plan for expediency but anticipate the movement of the Holy Spirit.