We need originals music from original writers

[yod1948]

I'm just curious.

Of the worship leaders here:

1. How many write original worship music?

2. How many are allowed to use that in the service

3. To what extent? Are you encouraged to do it or expected to keep it at a minimum?

4. In your opinion what would it take for your church to support a fostering community of writer(s) and what would that look like?

[Mike Darley]

I do write original music, but we've yet to use any of it. The reason is basically me. I have a fairly high standard for Scriptural accuracy and depth for our worship music so I don't want to bring anything unpolished. I'm sure it would be very well accepted at my church. I imagine, though, that someone bringing me a song they'd wrote might complain that I'm being too picky if I hold them to the same standard I hold for music we use Sunday.

[russhutto]

1) I write. Not as much as I'd like to.
2) I could use an original in a worship service if I chose to. I've only done so one in 2 years though.
3) I have full control, so it's up to me.
4) I'm getting ready to start a community oriented song writing group. We'll see how that goes. :)

[yod1948]

well Stevie, I believe you would find that most non-musicians prefer the non-polished approach to worship so let me encourage you to take risks! after all, who can control the Holy Spirit? it almost always scares me to abandon my intellect to follow where He is leading me because of the humilty of giving up control

but when you think about it, writers have changed the world more than anyone so our words as songwriters can have great impact when we do our part and let the Lord take care of the ''distribution'' aspects.

and most of the music we are using comes from congregations that foster that kind of creativity Writing worship music should be a long term vision of outreach, imo

I used to be a worship leader for the Gateway Shabbat services. They have a vision for blessing Israel and they support a lot of outreach in Israel and believe this the source of why God has blessed them so abundantly financially.

They gave me a lot of freedom to write songs that were both ''messianic'' and ''church''. That was a challenge which helped me define a new sound I was looking for.

if you have this kind of freedom in your community, why not step out in faith? We can trust the Holy Spirit to lead us where its a little scary...and it will strengthen our trust to do greater things as Levites

[Trent]

I write a lot of original tunes/lyrics for my church--they love it, and we sing songs of mine almost every week. They've never helped me record anything--I have to pay for that myself, but that may change in the future. I have several songs I'm recording this season including a great Christmas worship tune.

I have always felt a little weird using my own songs, for some reason. I never do more than two in one set, but people keep asking for them.

I just started messing with producing my own stuff--my first attempt is finished and streaming at www.paradisecma.org

I sure wish I could just suspend current ministry and go record ALL of them!
ha ha...and while I'm dreaming...I'd like a Laurence Juber signature Martin, too...I got to jam with him live last year and I've been drooling over that guitar ever since.

trent

[russhutto]

I just want to remind everyone to be aware of the ownership of songs.

IF and when you write a song on the "clock" technically the church organization owns the song, unless otherwise stated in an agreed upon contract.

I had never heard of this, and typically neither have many churches or songwriters. But it's part of copyright laws.

From a post back in October I posted on this:


If you are on staff at a church and you use “office” time to create “creative works” then technically the song belongs to the church.

If you write the song on your own time, it belongs to you.

Most people don’t even realize this. Most churches/employees aren’t aware of this either and don’t enforce it. But it’s there.

“Section 201(b) of the Copyright Act provides that ‘in the case of a work made for hire, the employer or other person for whom the work was prepared is considered the author… and, unless the parties have expressly agreed otherwise in a written instrument signed by them, owns all of the rights comprised in the copyright.’ ” (Quote taken from “Writing on the Clock” in Worship Leader/October 2007)

I try to write all of my tunes when I'm at home or on my "off" days. Not that I want to be stingy with God's gifts, but because I want there to be absolute clarity if and when the song is shared at a later date. I'm a better manager of those songs than our non-profit church organization.

[yod1948]

good point!

and unless you were hired to write music, you should probably be doing other tasks in faithfulness to your job description anyway

[Trent]

That may be a technicality, but it's impossible to track. I don't punch a clock...does anyone else out there? Ministry cannot be defined in terms of regular jobs. The church does not own me. If I have a song idea while I'm working on my worship set for a given weekend I'm not going to put that on hold till my day off. If part of my legal job description was song-writing that might make it a little clearer, but not much. I don't charge the church for all the things I do while not "on the clock" that benefit the church and build the ministry. The church doesn't pay me royalties to use the songs.

I certainly wouldn't spend a huge percentage of my time at work doodling around with song-writing, but neither will I completely separate it. I've never heard of a ministry position that could be completely separated from "outside" life anyhow.

How on earth do you break this stuff down? I--with my pastor's permission--have spent work time at home recording, because the church doesn't have the equipment. I paid for mixing and such out of pocket, but I have no ethical problem with spending time on the church "clock" working on arranging and playing music that we're going to be using in our services anyway.

Last year I recorded a cd that was my "singer/songwriter" stuff--kind of a cross-over project. I did that all on my own time and expense because we don't use those songs in church regularly.

The point is, it's impossible to track this stuff unless punching a clock is actually a requirement at your church. I try to err on the side of being generous with my church and leave it at that.

trent

[carguy1]

I have not written any stuff since I started leading worship at my church. However, I did write some stuff when I was with my old band. If you are interested you can check out two of my songs at www.myspace.com/gesso, "Charmed Life" and "Don't wnat to be" are mine. Let me know what you think. Also, I am doing all the sax stuff on those songs.

[Trent]

So, all my pastor's sermons belong to the church? That would mean that if he goes to another church he will have to pay the last church royalties to use his own sermons.

I don't buy that.

I go far above my church's expectations of my job. Playing violin wasn't in my job description, but I'm good at it so I do it at the church--and people would complain if I didn't. The bottom line is I was hired to be a worship leader and I'm going to do that the best way God shows me how to every day and every week. If that means writing a song, I'll do it--at home and at work.

[Smitty]

I write original worship music, and use some of my originals in my work as a worship consultant. My "home" church worship team has played two of my originals, as have several other churches I have worked with in the past two years.

Before I submit a song for consideration, I always let the senior pastor read the lyrics, because I think accuracy and integrity in Worship, especially Worship Music, is vital.

Smitty

[matreames]

1. How many write original worship music?
I do write songs, though I am not a great composer, I have a dear friend who helps me with that.

2. How many are allowed to use that in the service
In our church, Song Selection is entirely up to the Leader. If I am leading I could do enitrely original music, or not its my choice.

3. To what extent? Are you encouraged to do it or expected to keep it at a minimum?
I am allowed to do as much as I want, but I am encouraged to usually only introduce one or two new songs a week. So If I have introduced six already I could be free to them all

4. In your opinion what would it take for your church to support a fostering community of writer(s) and what would that look like?
My church encourages all of the arts, but does not really foster a community for it. One of the women from our church is a Juliard grad and is planning on starting a musical theory class if you will, the help people understand theory and how it applies to worship.

I on the other hand am working with some of the youth on writing. I am helping on Girl write a full on novel. And a small group of students are currently finishing a screenplay. (the script is not a christian story, its a detective story, but in all ways clean and proper for show before a congregation.) when we finish the scripting, I will help teach them videography and cinematography. We are going to shoot this to be the best we can make it.

so I guess we are fostering the arts to an extent, but I would love to have MORE!!

[russhutto]

Hey Trent, I just wanted to make people aware of a copyright law that exists. I don't think most people "buy it" as you stated, but it doesn't change the fact that it exists.

If you have an explicit agreement with your pastor (boss?) then I'm sure you have wiggle room. My point wasn't to point out the logistics of the ownership deal, but to make it known.

And as far as pastor's sermons...if they are published and he "writes" them on church time then according to copyright law they belong to the church. Again, I'm not stating that I agree with the law or that it's a good one, but that it is indeed a law to be aware of.

[yod1948]

If anyone commissions you to write music and then you accept payment, then it becomes a work for hire.

And my earlier point was that if you aren't asked to write songs but spend a lot of time doing that it "could" be akin to goofing-off (blogging?) when you should be working.

Most of us may not have to worry about that...but some paid staff members might consider it and you make a good point, Mr Openeyes

:)

[Trent]

Dear Blindeyesopen,

I understand what you're saying and I appreciate your knowledge in this area. My frustration is not with you. It is much larger than that.
I hate how the Christian and even Worship Music INDUSTRY (cause let's face it, that's what it is) is driven by money. Copyright law exists to control money. Of course it's necessary--no one would argue that, but it is my personal opinion that when worship leaders/writers have to put their creative ideas on hold in order to protect them from their church--it's gone too far.
Neither of the churches where I've been on staff had songwriting in their job description, but both, when they found out that it's part of who I am, welcomed and encouraged it--I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful that I can work on a new song at work and not feel that I am cheating my employer. Bottom line--every hired worship leader/writer needs to have that conversation with their senior pastor/leadership. I would leave it at that.

[skyescraper]

That may be a technicality, but it's impossible to track. I don't punch a clock...does anyone else out there? Ministry cannot be defined in terms of regular jobs. The church does not own me. If I have a song idea while I'm working on my worship set for a given weekend I'm not going to put that on hold till my day off. If part of my legal job description was song-writing that might make it a little clearer, but not much. I don't charge the church for all the things I do while not "on the clock" that benefit the church and build the ministry. The church doesn't pay me royalties to use the songs.

I certainly wouldn't spend a huge percentage of my time at work doodling around with song-writing, but neither will I completely separate it. I've never heard of a ministry position that could be completely separated from "outside" life anyhow.


I was just thinking the same things. If inspiration hits on 'company time' I have to get a pad and scribble down my thoughts. Besides, as a worship leader, writing songs is most certainly part of your job, if the Lord gives you a song (how's THAT for using Christian lingo...?!:D)

And, good point, Trent, we do so much for the church off the clock. I can't imagine anyone thinking I'm not working hard enough or putting in enough hours, because I put in countless extra hours - whatever it takes to get the job done.

I don't usually plan to write songs while at church, but if an idea comes to me, I run with it.

To answer the original question, I write worship songs for my church and use them fairly regularly. We have a closing song I wrote that we always sing at the end of the service (for now - we will probably change it in a few months), and I often write songs we use for special music on holidays or other special days.

[Trent]

This will be my last post on this thread cause anything more would fall into the "goofing off" category. Good thing I'm not at work yet.

Ministry is too difficult to define to put in black and white terms. It becomes an endless semantic argument. Think about it.

I can, at work--study scripture or other literature pertaining to God and worship. I may be getting a devotional ready for one of my teams or just deepening my well to be able to be a better leader. I can read an article to learn about guitar fingering to teach my team, or participate in a blog to network and gain new ideas. I can pray and have personal worship "on the clock"--after all, that's a huge part of preparing to lead worship. I can practice my instruments or work on making drum loops. All those things are the seeds of worship songs. What if a really cool line/melody comes to me during one of these times? Oh NO! Can't write it down! Hope I can remember it till lunch break! OH wait, I want to read "The Shack" on my lunch break--so is it really a break after all? I'm on my way home and I have to stop at the store. OH NO--there's that lady from church who will want to talk to me about her life and want me to encourage her. HIDE! I'm not AT WORK anymore--I can't do ministry!

Yes, the black and white "laws" are there--but ministry simply isn't black and white. Anyone who does it vocationally would agree. If you are accomplishing what the church asks you to accomplish, then who the heck cares if it takes 60 hours or 35? If it's 35 this week, it'll probably be 60 next. That's how ministry works.

[skyescraper]

I hate how the Christian and even Worship Music INDUSTRY (cause let's face it, that's what it is) is driven by money. Copyright law exists to control money. Of course it's necessary--no one would argue that, but it is my personal opinion that when worship leaders/writers have to put their creative ideas on hold in order to protect them from their church--it's gone too far.
Neither of the churches where I've been on staff had songwriting in their job description, but both, when they found out that it's part of who I am, welcomed and encouraged it--I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful that I can work on a new song at work and not feel that I am cheating my employer. Bottom line--every hired worship leader/writer needs to have that conversation with their senior pastor/leadership. I would leave it at that.

Amen, and Amen!

[russhutto]

Good points, Trent, Yod, and Skye.

I think the point that stands out the most to me is this:
Bottom line--every hired worship leader/writer needs to have that conversation with their senior pastor/leadership. I would leave it at that.

Cover your bases and then you're not breaking the law whether you find it a just law or not. I think we're both saying the same thing if you've been hired to lead worship and part of that includes "songwriting" just put it in writing and you're good to go.

My approach to this situation has been changed slightly because "Now I know, and knowing is half the battle!"

I did indeed have the conversation with my pastor (boss) and it is now inluded in my job description (contract) that writing songs on "church" time is acceptable use of paid time.

It's not difficult to do and doesn't require much to make happen.

Anyways, while I do agree that being a worship leader/coordinator means a whole bunch of different things at different times, depending on the structure of your organization and who does what, it CAN be fairly easy to work in a predictable environment. I don't mean a boring, ho hum job, just one where expectations are spread evenly across more than one person (be it paid staff or volunteers).

I do the same things week in and week out because we've created a team that spreads the load. I in fact do "clock in" and "clock out" daily and can keep a very detailed record of my time spent for the church.

Does that mean everyone should? Not necessarily, but it does give credence to the possibility that it can be done.

OK, now that I've thoroughly hijacked this thread :P

Back to the original question.

Those of you who do introduce new, original music to your team/congregation: What is your "teaching/learning" process? How do you introduce it? How does the team learn it? What is your evaluation criteria for determining if it's a winner or a dud?

[Trent]

I've been talking to a couple people on my staff about the issue of laws and such. It has been interesting. Our church executive director retired from the California Public School system. He was high up in it--I'm not sure the positions, but he was pretty much over the whole geographical area. He used to go to meetings where a goverment official/lawyer type would explain the new laws in effect for public schools. At one of these events, the presenter got up and said, "If a person in your position actually followed ALL the laws pertaining to the position it would impossible to accomplish anything. The letter of the law exists to enforce basic principles in the few cases that the spirit of the law is violated."

I say, Communicate openly with those over you, work honestly and professionally, get your jobs done and in the process--be creative and don't worry about it.

Forgive my numerous posts--I'm a sucker for stimulating conversation.
trent

[bobbygilles]

I've written many songs over the years. My church, Sojourn, has recorded a couple, done three others in live worship, and will record a few more on their next project.

Our worship arts pastor decides what songs we'll use, and he's tough. Very picky, very insistent on a song being "right" for our people. I don't push my songs much or make many suggestions to him one way or the other, because he's great at what he does.

Also, as someone who is a songwriter, the facilitator of our songwriting group, and the blogger/content manager of our music website, I don't want to create the appearance that I'm trying to use any influence to push my songs into our repertoire over anyone else's. We're blessed with many songwriters at Sojourn and I want to see all of them continue to grow as writers and to have their gift used by the church.

Roughly one-third of the songs we do are written by members of our church community. Another one-third are hymns and gospel standards, and the remaining third are contemporary songs from outside our community, by people like Redman, Tomlin, the Getty's, etc.

[solidwalnut]

I'm just curious.

Of the worship leaders here:

1. How many write original worship music?

2. How many are allowed to use that in the service

3. To what extent? Are you encouraged to do it or expected to keep it at a minimum?

4. In your opinion what would it take for your church to support a fostering community of writer(s) and what would that look like?

1. Definitely.

2. Definitely.

3. Unfortunately, the well has been dry lately. It'll come back, and the tunes I've previously written (some of the best ones/congregational ones) will pop up eventually. I'm encouraged to use my talents, but not take over the service. People like to sing songs that they're familiar with. They could become familiar with mine, but unless I/we feel that the songs are really stellar I'm not going to subject our people to my songs just because they're mine and I think they're good.

4. We're too new. We're only a year old. That is definitely something I'd be interested in in the future. I can see that this group would be encouraged to collaborate and come up with songs for use in future services. But what I can really see is that the people in the group would hold gatherings designed to hone the craft, so the craft can serve the inspiration.

On 'works made for hire', I apologize to all of you for not having read all the posts before I open my mouth, but here's an opinion: an attitude of covering your bases would do you well. We know it's all God's and it's us giving back to God. But the world of business is not of God but of man. The law states (paraphrasing), "unless there is an expressly written statement to the contrary, the work is made for hire and the employer is the author". Be up front. If you're paid for your services, have a meeting right now with your pastor and get this straight. He may or may not understand or know anything in this regard, so you take the 'bull by the horns' and get some sort of agreement, anything, in writing as to what you want to do.

Yes, the pastor or whoever is running the church could eventually claim that a particular work was made for hire (in the absense of an agreement and assuming that your work has made (or has the potential to make) some $, but they would have to prove it and then take you to court to make that stick. Cover your bases. Have an agreement.

Let's say that you wrote some songs and you sent in copyright registrations claiming authorship, and someone contests you in court saying that it was a work made for hire.

1) They wouldn't do it unless they had or would be losing money
2) Unless you work for back stabbing pastors or church authorities, it most likely will not happen.

In the case of you getting signed to a label/publishing company, the new publisher will have to clear the rights of the song. You will assign your copyright ownership to them (or whatever you agree) for exclusive exploitation rights. They're not going to do that if there's any incling of impropriety regarding the song(s) being possible works for hire.

Sorry for rambling. I'm my own publisher :-)

Steve

[Brad Loser]

I write frequently. I write because it serves the church and because my pastoral staff has asked me to continue to write. Songs teach - and we are finding it more and more difficult to find songs that teach well....therefore, we have begun to write songs to fill out our churches diet of worship. As songs are written, the pastoral staff checks to make sure that it is theologically sound. They haven't yet given direction on artistry or production - though I would welcome it as they are very creative in their own right. They encourage us to use the songs as needed.

As far as fostering a creative environment - we are in the infancy stages of that process. We have tossed around the idea of the pastoral staff coming together with the worship staff and banging out lyrics together. We have also bantered the idea of starting a writers group that would include lay people as well as paid staff members. None of this has happened yet - but we are moving in that direction.

The law is the law - and though it may never be pursued in court - this MUST be discussed and a solution worked out. I believe that currently we have had a document drawn up that keeps the rights of intellectual property with the author and not the church. However, we are also trying to determine what, if any, royalties the church would collect from a publishing standpoint if anything is sold beyond our church walls. This is not something that needs to be passed over lightly and/or approached with fists in the air and chests bowed out, but everyone should come together peaceably and work out a solution that benefits the author and the church. God has called us to serve His bride - in my opinion, we should find a solution that benefits the church we serve (beyond just using that song in a service) and the author(s) that created it. What that looks like from church to church will probably be as unique as the different churches represented on this site.

I'll finish with this - - we should be writing!!!! If you don't write - then start writing and/or find people who do and begin to create music to serve the people you lead. While using songs that are created from outside your local congregation has some benefits I think that using songs birthed within your own body will have a far lasting impact.

[yod1948]

Those of you who do introduce new, original music to your team/congregation: What is your "teaching/learning" process? How do you introduce it? How does the team learn it? What is your evaluation criteria for determining if it's a winner or a dud?


My criteria is simple. I throw it out at rehearsal. If the group can play it immediately and it sounds good, we play it in the service. If the congregation also gets it quickly and the Spirit flows, we keep it in the songlist. Rarely will I try it twice if it didn't work well the first time. (Lots of ''story'' or even worshipful songs aren't meant for congrgational use so I don't try them)

for congregational songs, I write what I call hyper-basic music so anyone should be able to jump in and sing/play without rehearsing in most cases. Quite often I work with music teams I've never met before with about 30-45 minutes of rehearsal before the service starts so the song choice has to be reflective of that reality.

There have also been times when I put a worship team together from the stage by calling for random volunteers in the audience. It was always scary...but if we are all listening to the Holy Spirit, its always beautiful even if it isn't ''great''.

I believe we should be able to worship together almost regardless of talent. Some random groups sound better than others obviously! lol

[solidwalnut]

On 'the works made for hire' issue.

...The law is the law - and though it may never be pursued in court - this MUST be discussed and a solution worked out.
You're absolutely right, Brad. My only point is that should there never be any written agreement in place; should there be ignorance of the procedure; should there be doubt as to when a work was written and who the actual author is (was it actually a work made for hire?) and if there is some disagreement in the future as to this, it's going to be up to a judge's interpretation and it could go either way. Certainly if a worship leader/church leadership understood the issues or if the songs are cut-and-dried works made while and for employement there is no issue. Ignorance of the law is never a defense.

Steve