Youth resisting adult leadership

[skyescraper]

A little background: my husband and I have been on staff as worship leaders here for 8 months. We've been wanting to have more teens be part of our church worship band. We have a couple of them but there are 7 or 8 that have musical skills but do not ever participate, in spite of being personally invited several times, and we haven't been able to figure out why. All the normal insecurities have come to our minds (they consider us old and boring, we don't do the songs they would want, there is something about us they just don't like, etc.)

Last night a family from the church invited us over and talked to us for over 3 hours about their problems with our leadership. The oldest daughter is a college grad and has friends in the church who are college kids who like to play in a band together. Before we came they would lead worship once a month. For two years this church had no worship leader, so various groups (musically-inclined families, etc.) would take turns leading worship. This system apparently was not desirable and the pastor felt there was no consistency in the quality, plus everyone’s style was different (some were very ‘charismatic’ (their words) in style – i.e. disorganized, letting the ‘spirit lead’ and spontaneously doing different songs than what was planned, others were not very good musically, others had no skills in making things flow and it felt disjointed, etc.) This ‘youth band’ (for lack of a better term) really enjoys playing together and wants to continue leading worship once a month now that we are here. None of them want to play with us in the church’s worship band – they want to do their own thing and be a separate entity. It’s hard not to take it personally because none of them have even come to a rehearsal to see what it’s like working with us. They just want to play by themselves. The first time we heard them play in a service we were surprised to hear them play in a very mellow style, and all the songs were songs we already do. I had thought perhaps they didn’t like our style or songs, but it seems to be a matter of wanting to do it themselves.

This girl that talked to us last night, has an issue with all of this. She thinks we should have two teams – the youth band and our band (we would never call it that – that’s what she referred to it as) and just let the youth band do their own thing and play once a month regularly, because in her view they have leadership skills and good hearts. She did not see the validity in their submitting to our leadership and participating in the church’s worship team. To me this seems like a rebellious attitude and shows lack of respect. It was just the whole point she was making – she thinks this youth band doesn’t need to come under the leadership of anyone else. They need to be allowed to lead because they already know what they’re doing.

What would you say to that? It’s hard for us to know what to do because there are a lot of feelings involved. I would like to say that I don’t feel threatened by it, but I really do, deep down, because I have noticed that when this band plays, the congregation reacts in a totally different way. There is a lot of clapping and whooping and people rave about how good they are. They are not particularly good, but they are young, which I think is the point. I realize their parents love seeing them up there and that accounts for part of the difference in response. I asked her (not sarcastically, but in earnestness) why this band – and particularly a certain guy, whose lead they all follow – wouldn’t want to have our job, and be the church worship leaders (and why wouldn’t the church have hired them, rather than move us from clear across the country) to which she replied, oh, no they are not trying to take our job, they just want to have a slot each month and do their thing.

We offered them a regular slot at the once-a-month evening church service but they don’t want that. (Not as many people come at night.) They want a Sunday morning every month. We would like to be accommodating but we also don’t agree with this. We would like to have any and all of them in our worship team but they don’t want to come. In fact, she said that they feel unwelcome in our team – and after further discussion, the reason they feel ‘unwelcome’ is because they know that under our leadership they wouldn’t have the absolute freedom to choose songs or direct the rehearsal. They would have to be under our leadership. They feel they already know what to do and want to do it themselves. We explained to her that once they become part of the team they have plenty of say in the song selection and other things. We don’t run rehearsals like a dictator. We are always open to suggestions and ideas. The people that are coming to our rehearsals know this.

Our pastor also wishes more of these people would be part of what we are doing, and has indicated that he wonders if we've made them feel unwelcome. He does not know the extent of the discussion we had last night, though. He is away on vacation so we can't talk it over with him yet.

The girl who spoke to us last night was very articulate and made her point many times. She really believes we have made this particular group of teens feel we don’t want them, because they only want to do a certain thing, which we haven’t supported. So, there are already bad feelings, which we would like to help turn around, but we don’t really know how, unless we change our view of what they want to do.

What do y'all think?

P.S. We don't have a youth pastor or organized youth group. Many of the teens in our church attend the youth group of another church in our area.

[dtpuga]

I would say to start by clearly defining the expectations for anyone who leads on a Sunday morning. Work with your church leadership on this so it doesn't become your personal agenda. Even if you 'write it' let it be signed off on and all that by your pastor/elders/etc. With that in place you can clearly communicate what their church has decided is best practice for the congregation. If it is reasonable and they are still resistant then it sounds like they disqualify themselves.

We do not have certain teams in our rotation but we do have different leaders who put together a band each week. Our ( full-time staff) Worship Director may or may not be deeply involved with the team and song selection. He is always available to help where needed regardless though. Some weeks he plays an instrument and doesn't even really take a mic while someone else leads, some weeks he is off stage completely. We have found that this provides a great variety for the congregation.

That being said... if this "youth band" leads well, what is the problem? Maybe they are just worried about being split up and want to play together all the time because they work well together. I can't answer those questions for you. I would take some time to find out what it is they are actually worried about and address those issues.

[iamanoffering]

Tough one...

Honestly - from what it sounds like in the way the congregation responds to this team - it seems like many people are worshiping the team and not the one the team is leading them to worship. It seems like a heart issue in a lot of people involved and it's going to take some gentle, patient and persistent teaching and a lot of prayer.

Maybe for now you could come to a compromise - allow the youth team to lead once a month but recommend (strongly) that they also mingle with the regular team and with your leadership. Emphasize the fact that you can learn from each other and build each other up, you would love to have a more consistent community and you would love to build a multi-generational worship team.

[dtpuga]

I didn't "feel" that they were worshiping the team rather than Jesus from that post. It sounded to me like the congregation simply was engaged and enjoyed the worship when they led. If clapping and other outward signs of approval are out of line in a worship service then I'd rather not go.

[iamanoffering]

Whoa...

I wasn't saying that "just" clapping and those sort of things were the indication that the congregation might be having some heart issues...

"There is a lot of clapping and whooping and people rave about how good they are..."

This sentence seems to indicate much more of an interest in who's playing and their skill then the One their worshiping. I could be wrong, but with the description of the attitude of the people involved and the description of the attitude of the congregation it seems like there are some heart issues that need to be dealt with. As I said, I could be wrong, but worshiping God deals with the heart above all else - and usually when He is able to soften hearts through encouragement, teaching, etc.. these problems start to dissolve.

[skyescraper]

Whoa...

I wasn't saying that "just" clapping and those sort of things were the indication that the congregation might be having some heart issues...

"There is a lot of clapping and whooping and people rave about how good they are..."

This sentence seems to indicate much more of an interest in who's playing and their skill then the One their worshiping. I could be wrong, but with the description of the attitude of the people involved and the description of the attitude of the congregation it seems like there are some heart issues that need to be dealt with. As I said, I could be wrong, but worshiping God deals with the heart above all else - and usually when He is able to soften hearts through encouragement, teaching, etc.. these problems start to dissolve.

iamanoffering and dtpuga, this is the way I see it, as well. We want people to participate in worship any way they feel comfortable, particularly with clapping and expressing themselves; but this congregation is somewhat subdued and tends to be pretty conservative (that doesn't mean they're not worshiping, I know) so it's interesting that they react the way they do to the youth band. When I said 'clapping and whooping..." I was referring to after the songs, not during (I WISH they would clap while singing!) It just feels like an appreciation for their playing and being onstage, not an extension of worship. And it's ok to express appreciation, too... it just comes across like 'look how great our kids are'.

All this would be less of an issue if the band members would participate in the church's worship band; not that they can never play on their own, but they are opposed to coming under any kind of leadership. What is troubling me is the attitude of 'us against them', because it doesn't foster unity.

[iamanoffering]

Thanks for the response.

Sorry I didn't clarify where I was coming from in my original post, dtpuga.

@skyescraper - Like I said - I think it's going to take a lot of patience and praying for wisdom to get through this one. It seems like you have a great attitude about it though, and as long as you gently teach and encourage, I think eventually things should start to work out. I think it would be great to have the youth team continue to lead once a month but be involved with your leadership as well. Hopefully everyone involved will benefit greatly from all of this.

[skyescraper]

I think it would be great to have the youth team continue to lead once a month but be involved with your leadership as well. Hopefully everyone involved will benefit greatly from all of this.

What I'd like to do is ask them to be involved in the larger church worship band as well as lead on their own sometimes. It may sound restricting to them but I think everyone will benefit in the long run. You are right, though, it will take much prayer and wisdom to handle this situation well. Up till now they have refused to be involved in anything else but 'their own thing', so I'm not sure how to go about encouraging them other than making it a requirement, which will most likely not go over well. :o

[dtpuga]

I wasn't trying to throw rocks, just speaking from my understanding of what you initially presented.

Since you are there, only you can determine the heart behind the congregation's response. It does sound like they may be enjoying the performance more than the worship, and you don't want performance to overtake worship, in my opinion. However, I wish more churches WOULD put effort into the technicalities of worship.

Anyway, if their heart is to lead others in worship, they shouldn't be resistant to participating with other team members. I agree with these other suggestions that have been offered up. Sounds like you have to have a conversation with them directly so we can stop speculating about motives, haha.

[carguy1]

Ok, I am being a little lazy here and didn't actually read all the posts. But this is how I see it from my personal experience, as in I was the one that didn't want to work under certain leaders, I wanted to be the leader or not at all. It seems as if these young people have forgotten what it is really about. I feel that those that lead worship have three main objectives:

1. Be an authentic worship yourself.
2. Help the congregation connect with God.
3. Prepare the people to recieve the message God has given to the pastor.

For some time I wanted to lead worship. I wanted greater involvement when our old worship pastor was still on staff, then when he left I thought I would be the logical person to take over, but pastor selected someone else, then he left and again pastor selected someone else, this happened 4 or 5 times over the course of two years. Each time it happened I became very angry. Then God smacked me over the head and said, "Hey dumby, IT AIN'T ABOUT YOU." When I finally admitted that my motivation for this had been personal pride and not the Glory of God, then I gave it God and changed my attitude about that. Within 2 weeks Pastor asked me to lead worship for the classic service we were getting ready to start. I think that these young people are in the same position I was in. If their heart were really to serve and bring glory to God, then it wouldn't matter if they did it as part of "Your band" or seperate. I think it's a great idea to have a youth band, but I think I would tell them that first they have to help fill any holes you have in the primary worship band, work with you for a time and then see about letting them lead on occasion.

I also think that I would ask them what their motivation is, why they want to lead worship. If their answer is anything like, "It's fun" or "It makes me feel good" then I think they would need some more education before they are given free reign to lead the service.

Besides, even if they were, eventually allowed to do their own thing, holding their own rehearsels, choosing their own songs and leading worship on their own, they would still fall under your leadership. After all you are in charge of that area.

[carguy1]

What I'd like to do is ask them to be involved in the larger church worship band as well as lead on their own sometimes. It may sound restricting to them but I think everyone will benefit in the long run.

I can't think of any other area in life where a person would be able to be part of a special task force, or team without first proving commitment to the main team. I really don't think this is any different. As the leadership in this situation you have a responsibility to the congregation to ensure that the heart of anyone that goes up front to lead worship is in the right place.

[skyescraper]

Ok, I am being a little lazy here and didn't actually read all the posts. .

It's ok, carguy1, I know my original post was pretty long (too long...):o

Thank you for sharing your story and being so honest. I appreciate hearing your perspective.

I particularly agree with your comment about the band members helping to fill holes in the main worship band first. We have so many needs (a consistent bass player, for one) and would absolutely love to have any or all of them come be a part of what we're doing. Right now, for instance, I'm playing keyboard but that's only because no other keyboard players have come along. A multigenerational group is what we envision, promoting unity and learning from one another.

[skyescraper]

I can't think of any other area in life where a person would be able to be part of a special task force, or team without first proving commitment to the main team. I really don't think this is any different. As the leadership in this situation you have a responsibility to the congregation to ensure that the heart of anyone that goes up front to lead worship is in the right place.

Yeah, we do have a responsibility before God and our church to do what we believe is best for the church - not just to make everyone happy (whatever that means to each person!)

I keep thinking, I can't imagine having that kind of attitude towards leadership - and actually telling them I know better than they do - when I was 20... I know, I'm an old fogey (38). :rolleyes:

[carguy1]

I am with you, even if I had thought it I would have kept it to myself.

[peteybird]

For me, it's not about musical excellence. When a person is placed in a position by their leadership, that must be respected by all. We also know that God put that person in leadership as well. When anyone refuses to come under that leadership regardless of skill or ability, they have an issue with the leadership, and ultimately with God. Does anyone deserve to be on the platform, or is it a priveledge to serve the church and the Lord by leading His people?

I would never allow anyone on the platform who was actively rebellious, refuses to respect the authority of others, and who has an entitlement theology. There is no unity. With out unity, how can we reach a world that is dying and going to hell, while we fight out who is most worthy to perform on Sundays?:mad::(:rolleyes::eek:

[carguy1]

Well said Petey. For me your heart is more important then your skill. (So long as you do have at least a little skill)

[russhutto]

To me it sounds like a well-knit group of talented, immature musicians.

It's ok that they're well-knit. It's ok that they are talented.

It's ok that they enjoy playing together and doing their "own thing" - it's even ok that they don't necessarily enjoy playing on the adult team.

It's even ok that they are immature, hey they're young.

I think for me it looks like what everyone else is pointing out. They need to be taught about the BIG PICTURE. Church is not about me. It's not about my little clique. It's not about my team.

It's about the whole. The body. Everyone.

If we, in general, could teach our members (young to old), to serve for the good of everyone a lot of things would go a lot smoother.

Specifically, in your situation I would do what dptuga and iamanoffering have suggested. Create a set of guidelines for participation that everyone can sign off on.

If they don't accept them then they don't play. I would also try and have more meetings with the "leader" of that crew and share what the vision of the leadership is. Communicate that you think it's awesome that they wanna rock it out together, and that you are even in favor of it, but that it would also be awesome if they did that AND contributed once or twice a month to the "regular" team.

[stephen_can_man]

What about splitting them and keeping them together? Is it possible to let them lead a Sunday morning once every two months, so long as they serve on the regular worship team at other times? I have dealt with this before, and, usually it's a cool kid factor. The approach that I used was to give a little bit of time for them as a group, but, split the group long enough to get one on one time with each of them so that I was able to show them the value of community and character. It worked for us.

[carguy1]

What about splitting them and keeping them together? Is it possible to let them lead a Sunday morning once every two months, so long as they serve on the regular worship team at other times? I have dealt with this before, and, usually it's a cool kid factor. The approach that I used was to give a little bit of time for them as a group, but, split the group long enough to get one on one time with each of them so that I was able to show them the value of community and character. It worked for us.

This is what I think needs to happen as well.

[peteybird]

these suggestions would work if the teens themselves are willing to compromise, but it doesn't sound like they are willing. Do we reward bad behavior?

If they are demanding that the leadership give them their slot, and are unwilling to participate in the regular church worship team, then that should be enough to disqualify them. No one is trying to be hardnosed, but to give in to pressure lets others know they can bulldoze you to get their way. Is that any way to lead people to the throne of God?

If these truly are the leaders of tomorrow, then we do a great disservice to them to let them have their way, their band, their terms. Wouldn't it be better to practice "tough love" and remove the barriers to worship, and put the backbiting, gossip, and public embarrassment of leadership back in the pit?

[NLoomis]

I was kinda shepherding our youth band along a couple of years back and running into some of the same issues. The whole group didn't have an entitlement attitude, just a couple of the guy guitar players.

What ended up happening was we just stopped youth band for awhile. The students who had a better attitude were brought into the adult rotation. Then, last year, we took all the musicians from the youth group to the Hillsong United Conference. That was huge. Enough of the kids came back with a real heart for actual worship (not just a desire to be on stage) that we're starting youth worship back up.

Ultimately, if the worship team doesn't have the right heart, its probably better not to do it. But, if they can find the right heart...

We'll be praying for you.

In His Grip,
Nathan

[skyescraper]

We'll be praying for you.



Thanks! I appreciate everyone's prayers and comments. Your experience and advice is valuable to me.

Yesterday my husband and I hosted a Worship Team Gathering & Ice Cream Social that had been advertised for several weeks in advance. We wanted the current players & technicians to come, as well as anyone who is interested in participating in the future. We provided childcare as well. About 30 folks showed up, including a few of the teens in question. We had a great time of discussion and were able to share our vision for a multigenerational team that reflects our congregation, that is unified and works well together. We also expressed our desire to have everyone support the main worship team, rather than do just their own thing. I also told them our number one priority is unity and love, because Jesus said they will know we are Christians by our love for each other. All the other details can be worked out if we are willing to treat each other in a loving and respectful way. No one objected, but the teens did not offer any suggestions or comments. I think it was a good start. We'll see what happens from here.

[End_User_X]

One of the things I see about that situation is that there is no youth leader or specific youth group for them to be under. Who's teaching and discipling them? At my church, we have a separate youth worship team that is separate from the regular worship team. They only lead at the youth service. But we have a youth pastor who they're under, and they're also under the authority of the pastor, and they have a heart for God and for worship. What kind of music do you play? I know that God is doing a new thing with the youth of the world, and it won't always be recognized as being from God by older people that are set in the ways of tradition. But the youth must learn submission to authority though.

[skyescraper]

One of the things I see about that situation is that there is no youth leader or specific youth group for them to be under. Who's teaching and discipling them? At my church, we have a separate youth worship team that is separate from the regular worship team. They only lead at the youth service. But we have a youth pastor who they're under, and they're also under the authority of the pastor, and they have a heart for God and for worship. What kind of music do you play?.

We do a blended service - a couple of hymns and the rest newer songs (Redman, Tomlin, etc.).

Since we don't have a youth pastor or regular youth group, the youth in our church attend another church's group.

[kingdavid]

I have the rumblings of a somewhat-similar situation that I've just learned of today - we have a very talented 18-year-old female vocalist who is good to work with and who is just joining our vocalist rotation (I use a pair per Sunday), except that she doesn't want to sing with another woman (40+) because she doesn't like her vocal style.

I told her dad (one of our guitarists) at lunch that I couldn't go along with the I'll-sing-with-her-but-not-with-her thing- if somebody couldn't be in a rehearsal and sing on Sunday with someone else, there's a fundamental issue of unity and love that's the biggest issue. She's only scheduled to sing with her once between now and January, so I think she'll live!

We must educate our young people about the Church Universal, just like we hit the older members with "we must change." It's so easy for one demographic to believe it has the right to choose church options from a menu.

[skyescraper]

I think you're wise to deal with it quickly, and be very straightforward about it. You are absolutely right, this goes to the heart of unity and love, and that's what's supposed to distinguish us as the Church from the rest of the world.

In our situation we have a group of teens who seem to think they know everything, can't possibly learn from anyone older and more experienced, and want to do things their own way. Interestingly, when they play they don't do any different songs than we do and they don't "rock out" any more than we do. I see a rebellious attitude that is partly due to our culture, and partly due to our church leadership not coming along and helping them to see that there is much to be gained from instruction, mentoring, leadership, and wisdom from those who have already been there. Someone previously mentioned needing a youth pastor, and I wholeheartedly agree. I wish our church was in a position to bring on someone for that position, and we don't have a lay person with a passion for youth ministry to help in the meantime.

Youth issues aside, we had a ladies' trio that liked to sing together but the individuals didn't want to sing with anyone else on worship team and we had to tell them we will mix and match as needed and you need to be willing to work with everyone. On of them didn't like it and never returned to worship team. She may come around eventually, but for now I'm ok with her not participating if she has an attitude problem.

[NLoomis]

"A prophet has no honor in his own land." Ultimately, this is a leadership and authority issue. You have the authority, but the kids don't want to submit to it. This means you have to find a way to increase your credibility and leadership with them unless you're willing to just tell them they must do what they're told.

2 options I see:
1. Find a mature third party whom the students respect who will see your side of it and help broker a solution. Perhaps the youth pastor of the other church. Someone they will listen to. Negotiate.
2. Who is the de facto "leader" of the band. Who is the student the others defer to? Meet with this student one on one, when they have no audience and nothing to prove. Say something like: "Billy, I appreciate and respect your leadership with the youth band, the other guys obviously look up to you. Its no secret that there have been some places where you guys and the old folks don't see eye to eye. I'm afraid that someone will decide to completely pull the plug if we can't resolve this. What I'd like to do is for you and I to come up with some guidelines that we can both agree to follow so we can make this work." Then, stop talking and see what happens. It certainly can't make things worse.

Now, there may be an issue with the fact that they are basically attending 2 churches, but that's a different thread, I think.

Nathan

[windbag]

There's plenty of good advice in the posts so far. Go you even go so far as to ask them if you can sit in on their rehersals and sets? Meeting others on their turf can be enlightening. Maybe you could gain some insights into what is making things happen when they're leading? You said that their ability isn't exactly up there, but people are responding. Perhaps people are responding to their enthusiasm?

The girl and the pastor both mentioned the unwelcome feeling that the youth band has. You mention that the reason they won't come to practice is that they don't want to submit to your leadership. Those things might be related, especially since you admit that you feel threatened somewhat.

It sounds like you're being pretty humble and open about this. I'm not sure I'd be as generous and understanding as you seem to be in this situation.

[Smitty]

Skyscraper...where in Oregon are you?

If you are interested, I would be willing to visit your church, and maybe help out a bit...I do some worship consulting, you see, and maybe an impartial third party is just what you need.

Just a thought. God Bless.

Smitty

[milepost13]

Since we don't have a youth pastor or regular youth group, the youth in our church attend another church's group.

There's a big part of your problems.

Nate

[skyescraper]

Maybe you could gain some insights into what is making things happen when they're leading? You said that their ability isn't exactly up there, but people are responding. Perhaps people are responding to their enthusiasm?

It sounds like you're being pretty humble and open about this. I'm not sure I'd be as generous and understanding as you seem to be in this situation.

I suspect the reason people are responding the way they are, is that it's Their Kids (and grandkids, etc.) up there on the platform. Kind of the way parents are delighted when their kindergartners do a school play. It's not necessarily a top notch quality production, but it's exciting and gratifying to watch your child perform.

Thanks, everyone, for your posts. I appreciate your insights. In the last couple months of being here and pondering all this, and hearing from various people in the church, I've come to a bit more of an understanding about the situation. This church had two years between worship leaders, before my arrival, where people filled in and took turns leading, and the youth were part of that rotation. When a 'professional' worship leader was hired (their words) they didn't have their regular slot anymore and they miss it.

It's hard to know how to handle that, because they are welcome to join in and play, but instead they want to only play on their own. We have only one Sunday morning service, and a once-monthly evening service that has turned into a hymn-sing for the older people who don't feel they are getting enough hymns (I already proposed letting the youth band do the Sunday evening service regularly and they turned it down, plus the older folks really wanted it to stay a hymn-sing, which isn't really what the youth band wants to do). My vision is for a multigenerational team where we can be an example of true unity. Incidentally, the music is pretty contemporary. At the risk of sounding very old, (I'm 38) when I was 16 or 18 I would have loved to be part of a team like this. But I would have been considered too young.

They haven't shown any kind of commitment to the main team, which is what troubles me.

I'm disappointed in our leadership, too, for not coming alongside these teens and helping them to see that "the Lord has brought this worship leader to our church, and let's support the vision and be a part of what the church is doing as a whole." That's what I was hoping for, but for whatever reason the elders are not seeing the importance of it.

Since my last posts I have learned that there are a couple of others as well, older (than teens) folks, that enjoyed selecting music, helping lead worship, etc., before we got here, that miss it and wish they could do it some of the time. (No one wants it full-time, but they miss the involvement they had.) And I'm happy to take suggestions and let others help with ideas, but it seems to me there needs to be some acknowledgement that we have a leader in this area now, and we don't need a guest worship team every week anymore.

[skyescraper]

Skyscraper...where in Oregon are you?

If you are interested, I would be willing to visit your church, and maybe help out a bit...I do some worship consulting, you see, and maybe an impartial third party is just what you need.



Thanks, Smitty! I just PM'd you. :)

[matreames]

As a general rule, I feel that anyone looking to be involved with serving the church ought to read Terry Nance's Armor Bearer series. It talks about the importance of falling in line with leadership and their vision for the direction of the church, This means if someone wants to serve in the area of worship they need to know the leaders direction and vision, align themselves with it.

If they cannot agree to align with leadership then they are not ready to serve... simple as that.

[LoriBiddle]

We have been down the route of separate bands, it crashed. It was only a matter of time before "band #3" they called themselves, had T-shirts with the #3 on them, their own blog and many other separatist things going on.

They were very charismatic and developed quite a loud following, what we had encouraged at first as a great way to have different sounds and creativity and ended ugly.

I had to meet with the volunteer leaders and tell them we were going back to a staff lead praise team. UGLY! I was kind and still have a good relationship with the leaders, but they were hurt and people were asking what happened? Could the young team you are referring to just do an occasional special that fits their talents within a praise set where they were part of the greater team? Can their whole group be added to a bigger team?

[skyescraper]

Could the young team you are referring to just do an occasional special that fits their talents within a praise set where they were part of the greater team? Can their whole group be added to a bigger team?

I would love to see this happen. Currently they are not interested in being part of the main team.

[mikeymo1741]

I would love to see this happen. Currently they are not interested in being part of the main team.


Well, that's a red flag right there. One hallmark of a worship leader has to be humility and a willingness to serve the congregation and serve God, not themselves.

I would say with that attitude, they're not ready to be on any worship team.

[hisfirewithin]

So, I think, and this is just my opinion, that you directly oppose the pride issue, and you beat them with a Bible. Yes, I know, a bit old school. But sometimes sheep need a good whack with the rod to bring them in line. So, maybe it's "If you can't get beyond wanting to do your own thing, you will do NOTHING here." This issue is total sin, and will pollute the platform and the whole church if you give in. This needs to be addressed bluntly, completely, and honestly. Better to leave a red mark on someone's bum now than have something like this pollute worship in a congregation.

[tobywan]

As long as the root can be identified, then the situation can be dealt with. I know that I have faced similar situations where I have looked at the "line up" or the set list and have found myself erecting barriers. If I have not dealt with these, then my ministry has suffered.

[windbag]

Maybe I'm too cynical, and maybe this is better for another thread somewhere, but part of the problem may lie in the fact that we erect ladders to climb with much of our organization and church hierarchy. No, I'm not saying that we need to go back to the days of Judges, with each person doing what's right in his own eyes. By layering the various functions of the body, and especially emphasizing a disctinction between laity and clergy, ugly things can sprout.

I know we need dependable people on the worship team, but taken to an extreme, we create an exclusive club, primed for pride and arrogance. I'm not excusing anyone in this specific setting, but every time that youth get carried away with zeal and try to jump up a few rungs on the ladder isn't necessarily rebellion. Perhaps they're simpy anxious to act grown up and show everyone how spiritual they are? I know I was when I was a teen.

We learn very young and very quickly how to act holy. If you don't believe that, ask a first grade Sunday School class a difficult question and see how many shoot their hands up and blurt out "Jesus" or "God," thinking that that's always the right answer.

The problem isn't just with youth. I've seen plenty of people lining up to try out for the worship team, ready to show the congregation their spiritual chops. Mickeymo1741 summed it up best: "One hallmark of a worship leader has to be humility and a willingness to serve the congregation and serve God, not themselves." Young and old alike must exhibit this trait.

We have to be careful to discern what's actually going on. Are these people functioning in a capacity that they perceive to be part of the operating system, just accelerated or tweaked? Or are these people knowingly functioning in a capacity that they know is contrary to the acceptable operating system? My reaction would be wholly different, depending on which I thought to be the case.

[kcampos]

To me this sentence says it all:


We offered them a regular slot at the once-a-month evening church service but they don’t want that. (Not as many people come at night.) They want a Sunday morning every month.

If that is true then their heart is totally in the wrong place. Their musical ability is entirely secondary to their maturity in Christ and proper perspective of worship. You are doing them a disservice if you try and "accommodate" them, as worship leaders you aren't there to accommodate people's creative outlet, that's not your job. You are certainly called to raise up new leaders, especially from the youth, but "raising up" means train, teach, disciple...not throw up on stage because they have some talent and their parents like to see them up there.

If your pastor backs you then stick to your guns. You are responsible for leading an entire congregation, undoubtedly that means sometimes you are going to fail some people's expectations, whether they are good or bad.

[skyescraper]

...As worship leaders you aren't there to accommodate people's creative outlet, that's not your job. You are certainly called to raise up new leaders, especially from the youth, but "raising up" means train, teach, disciple...not throw up on stage because they have some talent and their parents like to see them up there.

If your pastor backs you then stick to your guns. You are responsible for leading an entire congregation, undoubtedly that means sometimes you are going to fail some people's expectations, whether they are good or bad.

I really appreciate these statements. Thank you for the reminder that we are here to lead and to follow God's leading.

[Smitty]

Keep the faith Sky...it will be worth it when all is said and done.
Let me know if I can help.

Smitty

[skyescraper]

Keep the faith Sky...it will be worth it when all is said and done.
Let me know if I can help.

Smitty

Thanks, brother!

[free_by_grace]

One of the best things a pastor (read as leader who cares) can do for the flock they are accountable for is to pray for those in their team.

In the case of these youth they currently don't seem to hold the maturity to respect what the leader wants to do, but yet as a leader you can see that they desire to lead in worship. If they want to only work as their own team you can do some things to facilitate their growth.

See if they are open to you sitting in on their rehearsals (silently as just an observer). See if they are open to sitting in on your normal rehearsals, if even just to see how you do it.

Actively make it a priority to include praying for their team and their success in your personal quiet time. You don't necessarily need to pray for their maturity level... let the Lord work on that angle, but pray for them to become more effective in ministry. They have enough talent and desire that if they can submit their desires to the Lord, even if it does not fit your "box" there may be a perfect niche for them.

If they know that you want them to succeed they may also come to appreciate you and may even come to you for feedback on growing their skill. If they truly desire to grow in their ability they will need wise mentors to give them feedback, and if you are there for them you may find they are also ready to come work with the primary team. And if they don't you may have some unity without uniformity.

There is a lot of benefit to having a set of agreed standards for what is expected of a worship team member, and if they don't want to own those same standards then encourage them to find an opportunity outside of the worship team that allows them to be ministers in a way that works for them.

[tobywan]

The first thing that came to my mind was... do they have a teachable spirit. In my mind, this would show how they respond to authority.
The second thing is how does their "theology" line up with the Word of God.
You said that you offered them a regular slot at the once-a-month evening church service but they don’t want that. (Not as many people come at night.) You also said that they dont want to be a part of the worship team or anything like that.
This is a major issue that needs to be dealt with before they can be a part of anything. The Word has so much to say on discipline. I think of the passage in Hebrews 12:13 " Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it"
It would seem like they have no idea on what leadership is or the responsibilities that come with leading worship or that they desire to come under authority and learn about leading.
I just thought of something.... remember back in the old testament when Aaron's sons offered strange fire before the Lord?
They had been around the office of the priest and the duties that it became a common thing to them and they had no regard to the sanctity of the office/duties and God took their life.
I remember about a year ago... I was spending some time with God.. playing some soaking music.. and God impressed upon my heart that it was time that I step up to the plate and start playing for worship leaders and even start to lead worship myself. There is so much that I have to learn. One thing that I have learned is that it is never about how many people show up because if that is what it is about, I might as well put a music cd and let that play for 30 minutes.
I know that whenever there is too much of "me" in they way, my worship experience is "off". I have ended up cheating God out of what is rightfully His. It is only when I have entered in and worshipped God and left all of "me" at the door that God has inhabited the praises of his children. How often do we as people pray that God would come and visit us when we should be offering up our praises as a habitation for Him to come and dwell. Anyway... ive babbled enough.. i trust that you will be able to take something from this.

[skyescraper]

Thank you, all, for your helpful insights. I've been here a year now (four month since my original comments on this thread) and things have not improved. The youth who want to do things their way are continually praised and given opportunities by the leadership, even though they do not support what the overall music worship ministry is doing. At every turn my pastor undermines and belittles me, then turns around and denies he did anything. He once even apologized to me in tears (in private) for being 'abusive and mistreating me' but went right back to it the next day. I have continued to serve here because I believe it is God I am serving, and not man, all the while fervently praying for God to work in this man's heart (and in the elders' hearts as well, who do not hold him accountable but continually enable him) but my family and I can't continue to be treated this way. (Interestingly, he is making the situation increasingly unbearable for me, but won't fire me; however the elders recently cut my pay by $1000 a month to deal with the church's 'budget problems'.) I have about 25-30 resumes out there, and unfortunately no serious interest yet, which is the only reason I haven't quit.

Yesterday I was offered a part time job at another church in this area. It pays barely enough for our rent and utilities. We don't want to take it out of desperation but it's our only option right now.

Several of you have said you would be out of here already if you were in my position, and while I understand those comments, the reality of it is that it's very difficult to go, without another plan in place.

[Smitty]

So, Jesus sends His disciples out, with pretty clear instructions on what to do in places where they weren't well received. My advice to you would be to follow Jesus' sage advice...shake the dust off your sandals and don't look back.

Smitty

[milepost13]

it's very difficult to go, without another plan in place.

There is a plan in place...just because you haven't been given an inside look doesn't mean it's not there. I'm still with those who say move on and be happy.

Nate

[skyescraper]

There is a plan in place...just because you haven't been given an inside look doesn't mean it's not there.
Nate

That's a great insight, Nate. Thanks.

[musicianinthestates]

personally I'd welcome the separate band. In my church we have the same speaking pastor 80% of the time, and the same service, song, and scripture leaders every week unless illness or work prohibits their attendance. It would be nice to see different speaking/singing leaders. The issue here may not be rebellion but desire for more diversity than you alone provide, or that their pull to service is leading, not following. Community churches should allow and encourage others to lead. Push someone down or away too many times, eventually they don't come back. I see it like this; some churches are villages to those who follow God's dream for them, taking them in, encouraging, training... then there those churches who make themselves the giant, to be dodged, run from, metaphorically slain because they accept nothing less than excellence, and told dream followers they weren't good enough yet, or didn't fit the vision

All churches should strive to be a village.

[stephen_can_man]

Honestly, it seems like you misinterpreted or read into what your role was going to be as worship leader at this church, and, the church/senior pastor had a different interpretation as well. The only way to affect change in a church like this is through relationships. If you want to be the leader of the worship team in a church that doesnt respect titles, then first you need to learn how to lead and influence people indirectly.

The church I am at now had three people deeply entrenched in the worship band, each of them doing things their way. So, I gave in a little here and there and over time created relationships with them and the people they were around. Eventually, (2 years later) I got control of the situation and now none of those people are here at the church and I have complete control of the team. The people who left were sent out to other churches with my blessing and we are still friends. How did that happen? Leadership.

This really isn't a question of worship as much as it is learning how to create change in a group of people who don't trust you. You could be 100% correct in all these areas but you have not earned the "pocket change" to create the results you want. Right now I think that you are learning a lesson in how to take a group of people in a direction that they don't want because it's in their best interest. The really gifted leaders are able to do this and years later nobody even knew what had happened, they just found themselves in a new place with great things happening.

I have heard it said that it takes at least one year for a church to begin to really know a person, and, when a church doesn't respect titles and assigned authority it will take longer than that to gain the respect that is necessary to lead the people. If the church sees you as a replaceable commodity rather than a central piece of the foundational success, you will continue to struggle with influencing change. It was about a year and a half of consistent relationship building and repetion of my devotion to my church before people trusted me enough to listen to my opinions, and, I am in a decent size church with 12 staff members.

If you are looking for the perfect church where this won't happen, guess what, it doesn't exist. It's unlikely that finding another job will fix the problem, you'll just have to start this whole process over again. I think that the Holy Spirit might be trying to teach you some tough lessons about the "non-musical" side to leading people, which is the other half of the job.

You may have burned some bridges at this place, but, I would suggest that you consider sticking it out and winning over the church's "decision makers" (or elders) with consistent and devoted relationship. Down the road you will get the apologies and the influence, but, on the front end it will take some humility to win them over.

This advice is just a suggestion from my experience. I quit the first place I was full time (with almost exactly the same struggles you are experiencing) only to find myself in the same situation again, climbing the same mountain. Learn the lesson and you can reach the top.