Lakeland, Florida Outpouring [Archive] - The Worship Community Forums

James Vincent III

05-17-2008, 03:16 PM

Oh my goodness! Has anyone else here been to the revival meetings in Lakeland, Florida? I was there for two days and it was awesome! The best thing about it, besides the constant testmonies of healing and dead-raising, is that it is not man-centered. Jesus gets all the glory alone. Bob Jones, for those if you who know him, said that this is not a "revival"-- this is maturity; the body of Christ has come into its next level and that the power that has been poured out is ABIDING!
I can't wait to see what else God does in the coming days and how many of us will play huge roles in His plan. I don't know about you all, but I have GOT to be part of what He is doing TODAY!
God is too awesome and vast for us to be thinking small in these times.

I will enter this and more into my blog at worshipbeyondradio.com/worshippers_blog_to_the_nations/html (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/worshippers_blog_to_the_nations.html). Feel free to comment here or there!
God is AAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSO OOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMME!

Let's Go Up,
James

http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

fmckinnon

05-17-2008, 03:51 PM

James,
Thanks for the report - I've been wondering, and have a few friends who have been as well.

This could be a great thread - I truly believe in miracles, healings, yes .. even the possibility for resurrections ... yet, I find myself skeptical all the time. It breaks my heart that I'm so skeptical about these type of moves, and I have to confess, I've been right in the "thick of" many of them.

I've heard many say it's not glorifying man, but then I keep hearing constant reports of how overly-flashy Todd B. is, and how he draws so much attention to himself with all the fanfare, noise, and demonstrative actions (ie. pushing people, hitting people, saying "ba, boom, bam, shazam", etc., when he prays for people ...".

I'm not judging that - I cannot, as I've not been, and even THEN, I'd be very cautious before I formed any judgment whatsoever.

I also have to keep in mind that as long as the "vessel" is "mankind", fallen, nowhere near perfect, there will be "issues" we'll need to graciously overlook.

Look forward to more reports, and other input.

russhutto

05-17-2008, 09:09 PM

me too, Fred, me too.

chrisfromcanada

05-18-2008, 11:43 AM

Obviously you do not want to mess with a Canadian preacher - he might kick you in the face!!

I think this is a pretty great opportunity for wisdom and maturity. We've been praying here that if it is truly of God that it would be made famous - that it would continue, expand and spread around the world. We've also been praying that if it is of human (or worse) origin that God would blow it up in spectacular fashion so that nobody would be able to deny that God is sovereign.

But yeah - without having been there and from only seeing brief reports and clips on YouTube it is hard to have a sense of what is actually happening.

stephen_can_man

05-18-2008, 11:24 PM

It's really none of my business, but, I thought I might share my perspective. I was raised AG and my parents were all caught up in Rodney Howard Brown, Brownsville, Toronto Blessing, Benny Hinn etc. They made me go as a child, or when I was 11-18 years old. Honestly, I think this stuff is fake. I nearly left the church altogether because of seeing churches pulled apart, "dead" people jeered at and emotional fanaticism gone rampant. I used to be deathly afraid to give my honest opinion about this stuff because I would be mocked and jeered and acused of being unspiritual and not in tune with the Holy Spirit. I have seen people shake, roll, bark and testify, and several years later the same people have the same problems they shook and rolled in the door with, or even worse they are "storm chasers"...always looking for the next spiritual high with little substantial grounding to local church work. I am not saying that God cannot use these experiences, but I have seen more lasting transformation in the non fanciful work of the local body committed to reaching their community with the gospel. Just my 2 cents.

James 1:26-27

James Vincent III

05-19-2008, 12:39 AM

You know, Stephen, I do believe for some people it can be fake. I used to know people who would roll and shake and laugh and scream, but afterwards they were the same cursing, bitter, angry, lustful, wicked people they were before. That's why at first I had a problem with it all. But always remember that with every good thing God imparts, there is a counterfeit from darkness.

Remember Simon the sorcerer who did many miracles in the sight of the people and everyone wondered at him and called him the mighty power of God. This was well after Pentecost and the many ways in which the Holy Spirit manifested God's power. But when Peter came with God's true power, it was undeniable, even to Simon the sorcerer, that this power was greater and more real than what was known in that land at the time.

I'm telling you, if you have a heart for Jesus and His truth, you will sense and see that God's power is real through these signs were seeing in these days. Jesus said Himself that the Pharisees didn't really care in their hearts to know the father, so they couldn't discern that He was really God's son! I want to encourage you not to look for the fake or faulty, but look for God in it. We can miss out on so much that He has for us if we shun everything that we would naturally label as "off" or "weird." I'm guilty of it too... I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

I can certainly understand where you're coming from... it's just like a black man who has been wronged by so many whites that when someone white genuinely shows him love and respect, he can't receive it. It's real, and that's just where the enemy wants us. So just look for God, discern with love and truth what is His heart and what isn't.

Let's Go Up,

Jameshttp://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

fmckinnon

05-19-2008, 08:49 AM

Y
I'm telling you, if you have a heart for Jesus and His truth, you will sense and see that God's power is real through these signs were seeing in these days. Jesus said Himself that the Pharisees didn't really care in their hearts to know the father, so they couldn't discern that He was really God's son! I want to encourage you not to look for the fake or faulty, but look for God in it. We can miss out on so much that He has for us if we shun everything that we would naturally label as "off" or "weird." I'm guilty of it too... I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

Thanks, James.

I can assure you, just because someone (myself included) may not be a part yet, may still be "testing and trying" the Spirits, trying to get a grip on their own discernment .. doesn't mean they don't "truly have a heart for Jesus and His truth ...".

I sent a long PM, but after settling down and re-reading your post, I came across the most important line of all, which said "I'm not accusing anyone of anything". Thanks.

However, so much of the language in that paragraph sets off so many red alerts. Blanket appeals to 'not look for the fake or faulty, but look for God 'in it'" are just not sound AT ALL. It says "throw out discernment, throw out the testing of spirits and just try to see God in it".

While we do have to resist the urges to be skeptics, we ABSOLUTELY MUST use discernment and "test the spirits", as the "Spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets". So, allz I'm saying is to be careful, and constantly check your Spirit, and don't allow someone to convince you to carelessly just "look for God" in everything.

SaintLewis

05-19-2008, 09:26 AM

My thoughts& concerns about the revival so far are all listed here:

Be the Revival, Don't go to One (http://heatlight.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/be-the-revival-dont-go-to-one-on-revivals-in-florida-elsewhere/)
Be the Miracle: the Miracle Workers (http://heatlight.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/the-miracle-worker-be-the-miracle/)
Honest Questions (http://heatlight.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/friday-bloglove-honest-questions/)
I've been in a conversation of late, however, than may have lightened some of my concern a bit... I'll blog on that as soon as I've done some more follow-up on it.

inworship

05-19-2008, 11:45 AM

It is interesting that the Bible has instances both in the OT and NT that show that those without God's Spirit have the power to heal and do miracles.

I am never concerned or in disbelief over whether God can show us great signs and prove His power in us and around us. But, the people claiming God's power, need to be watched and scrutinized.

Revival is about the heart and mind...not the body...

El Ben

05-19-2008, 12:50 PM

I've been wondering how long it would take for this to come up. I've been checking into this revival now for a couple of weeks and haven't seen anything overtly unscriptural or anything that absolutely turned me off to it.

I'm not as entirely skeptical as stephen (skepticism's not always a bad thing so long as it is laced with openness), and I'm not entirely open as james (openness is not always a good thing when it is blind to truth), but I rest somewhere in the same arena as Fred.

For me, "testing the spirits" and operating in the spiritual gift of discernment are not biblical suggestions, they are commands. 1 John 4:1 CLEARLY says: Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. It's that simple. I think that the reason we've had so many kooks in the church (especially in the charismatic movement, of which I am a part) is because we didn't test the spirits.

That being said, God does weird stuff. He makes donkeys talk and Jesus made a literal appearance to the apostle Paul. He struck dead people who lied in church and raised a young boy to life who had fallen from a window and broken his neck. God is most definitely in the business of the supernatural (and more often than not, weird).

I take the position of Gamaliel from (appropriately enough) the book of Acts chapter 5, verses 38 and 39:

Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."

El Ben

05-19-2008, 01:09 PM

Also, in addition, I would like to say that Proverbs says "Wisdom is justified by her children." Let's see what the "children" of this revival are. If the fruit of it is repentance and renewal, then we're truly looking at a revival. If not, well, then we'll need to re-examine what to call it, but let me tell you something straight up right now: if I ever have to stand before God and rationalize my position on this revival, I imagine that it will be a HECK of a lot easier to say "God I just wanted so much more of you that I probably left discernment behind" than to say "God, I was so concerned with being right that I closed myself off to you."

That's not a shot against anyone, but it is a warning against relegating God to a cosmological equation with set parameters of action. He can do whatever he wants to, whenever he wants to, and however he wants to. As long as we are not in direct contradiction of scripture, it's all open to interpretation and discernment. And mind you, discernment has nothing to do with whether or not we think something is weird.

God help us if revival must be marketable enough or comfortable enough for us to receive it. That is one revival I want no part of.

stephen_can_man

05-19-2008, 03:06 PM

One question I have about all this revival stuff...what are the fruits? I spent four years at my college campus and saw nearly 30 people led to Christ, two of them are good friends of mine. One of them is now a worship leader and the other is a campus pastor. All of this from Christians simply being Christians.

In all the years my parents took me to all this revival stuff, in our church and at other churches, I can remember one person who got saved, and I can give 5 examples of people burned. Faith is hard, Christianity is hard, life is hard. I say find joy in the simplicity of sharing struggles, music, love, laughter, faith and sorrow with fellow believers and daily coming to grips with our own humanity in light of God's humility and sacrifice. This is enough to win the world; there is an eternity found life's simplicities. We don't have to chase the emotional winds that breeze through the church to find joy and significance in Christ.

By the way, my mom is still trying to convince me that I need speaking in tongues and the "new wave" of the spirit to have "true" ministry. I thought that it was funny that our church had 30 adult baptisms last year and her church (numerically the same, but not for long!) had 1. We also had 20 people complete intense discipleship classes and 100 new members total. Her "new wind" church, and the one we grew up in have declined steadily over the last ten years. I mention that and she gets "tongues" tied...j/k

El Ben

05-19-2008, 03:48 PM

fmckinnon

05-19-2008, 04:12 PM

Ben, thanks for IM"ing me .. somehow, I read steven's last reply, but overlooked both of yours.

The quote from Gamalaliel was, honestly ... some of the most profound wisdom I've heard in a WHILE!

AMEN to that.

James Vincent III

05-19-2008, 05:03 PM

Maybe I wasn't clear in my last post-- I'm not suggesting that we just accept anything that looks like it might be God as God. We must certainly discern spirits BY THE SPIRIT AND WORD OF GOD. Does it line up with His word? As our brother stated, the Lord is in the business of healing and miracles. The only other thing left is to discern by God's spirit in you. We know by the word and experience that just because something looks and sounds holy doesn't mean that it is holy (unto God, I mean).

I also know by experience that skepticism can be a major setback to what the Lord really wants to do in our lives. When I say "look for God and not the faulty..." I am only saying that 9 times out of 10, a skeptic is not looking to disprove his skepticism, but to confirm it. There is a place in God where we as his sons and daughters can know without a doubt what he is saying and what he isn't. We must beware our "humanly filters" because the flesh CANNOT discern spirit. I can assure you, I entered a skeptic and came out a believer because of what God did in me...He can "bust through" any heart.

I appreciate the response to this thread and I can tell you guys really have a heart for God.

http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

Mike Darley

05-19-2008, 05:47 PM

It's interesting, Steven and I have had almost the same experience. My mother was (and still is to some extent) very into the a lot of the more extreme expressions of the Charismatic movement. As I grew up I left the Charismatic church. (It was actually for theological reasons other than miracles and such. My former pastor was basically espousing Open Theism, and that was the last straw for me.)

I definitely can sympathize with where he's coming from. I've seen so many counterfeit miracles and can remember only one instance of a person being healed. A lady from our church had a brain tumor and the church came together and prayed for her and the next time she went in to the doctor it was gone. The interesting thing is that in that instance there was no falling down, or blowing into a microphone, or any of it. It was actually a pretty sober church service. Just a group of God's people gathering to pray for our sister and, by God's grace, He chose to move.

I say all that to say this. Steven's skepticism is reasonable and, I would say given his experience, called for. To be honest, I'm right there with him. When all you've seen has been fake, you'd have to be a fool to think the next thing coming around the bend is the real deal. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool me a hundred times in a row and I'm a complete idiot. I think all of this seeking after physical blessing is just fundamentally flawed thinking about what God would have us do. Scripture tell us to seek the things above, not the things below, to store up our treasures in heaven, and so on.

I believe that God can do miracles today, as I'm sure Steven is, but I've not seen any good evidence for believing these "revivals" are real. I looked up some clips of the Lakeland revival on Youtube, and I've seen it all before. (Except maybe the "bam's"...who does this guy think he is? Emeril Lagasse?) I saw a kid on there with cerebral palsy get out of his chair and sort of stumble around and told he could walk. Bottom line is that at the end of the clip he still had CP and the cameras were told told that this is a miracle in progress. My real concern is what happens when the kid is no better off the next day? What is that going to do to that kid's view of God, of himself, of the Christian life? And as far as the "progressive healings" go. I have a really hard time believing that this is what happened when Jesus or one of the apostles healed someone. anyway, that's my 2 cents.

russhutto

05-19-2008, 06:11 PM

I believe "revival" happens daily in and through the local church just being the local church (as God intends us to be).

Mike Darley

05-19-2008, 06:14 PM

Russ,

Amen, brother. Amen.

stephen_can_man

05-19-2008, 07:55 PM

Stephen, I am truly, truly sorry that you were burned in those places and at those events. I am sorry that you have problems with your family members on matters of doctrinal issues. I only ask that you don't let those issues stop you from being open to the supernatural.

On the contrary, I completely believe in the supernatural. Is it not completely supernatural when a sinner's eyes are opened to his/her depravity in light of the awesome creator of heaven and earth? All I am saying is that these "revival" out breaks are useless if the fruit from each ordeal is broken, unbalanced faith. What good is it if people get healed physically but they are still emotional wrecks tossed about by the next miracle wind with no relational or biblical foundation to cling to? I don't want to steal thunder, I just want to give perspective.

chipshot0701

05-19-2008, 08:24 PM

I worry about the Binny's of the world because of an example pointed out in a novel I just finished. "Ted Dekker I think"
A young man was invited to a healing service. A young diabetic girl went into diabetic shock. The praying church members wouldn't let the EMT's in the door to the church because they were doing Gods work and wanted to let God do the healing.
What happens if we go to one of these healing services and go away from it and not take our medications or never return to our doctors because we've been "healed"? Will it be too late for a medical cure? Isn't that dangerous? I understand faith. But I don't understand uncertainty.

.02 cents in.

fmckinnon

05-19-2008, 09:12 PM

clipshot ... I hear ya, but you gotta admit, that's definitely an EXTREME example that I think ALL of us would renounce.

(oh yeah .. and just FYI .. this could become a heated topic ... and since it's in "Random Babblings" .. let's let it run ... but remember to speak in love, and let's all be mature, open, non-judgmental, yada, yada, yada ...

Love you guys! All of ya!

chipshot0701

05-19-2008, 09:33 PM

I hear ya Fred. I didn't mean to sound over the top crazzzyy. Just throwin darts out there.
mc

jcrlanger

05-20-2008, 11:41 AM

Got one question for everyone - What happens when this stuff pours into homes and businesses? I got nothing to gain from any of this. I'm just a nameless faceless person from NC. In my US Federal Government job I've seen God grow out 3 legs, straightened out an unaligned set of hips, and during a cell phone call allow a woman with cancer all over her body the ability to touch her toes for the first time in years. At my home, my wife had a growth in her abdomen dissappear, two gold fillings appear in her teeth and have her teeth whitened. The tangability of this is way to great to ignore because there is an overflow from this like never seen in those "other" meetings. My boss in his house recieved a gold filling. His daughter got a gold filling and two gold crowns (went to the dentist and all he says is that he cannot explain what happened). His daughter in California has two new gold fillings.

Also where is the fruit? Hundreds of people are giving their lives to Christ nightly. I listened to the web cast after the TV went off the air two nights ago and they were asking the people who just gave their lives to Christ why they were there. I was expecting to hear most of the time to get healed of this condition or that. About 75% of those asked responded they came to get saved or to know Jesus! Praise God!

Now they are planning to take this to the streets daily starting today. They want to reach the lost because it's all about Jesus.

my two cents
John

edit - here's something I found from the Dudley Outpouring which stemmed from Lakeland and spread to Dudley UK -

We are into our fourth week of the outpouring!

Night after night new people continue to come. The word that God is healing in Dudley continues to spread. Every night is also marked by salvations!

stephen_can_man

05-20-2008, 07:32 PM

Thanks for the input newbie. I was just waiting for you to tell us about a bank in Nigeria that has a large sum of gold teeth valued at 2 million pounds. Where do I send my social security number? Sorry everyone, I couldn't resist poking a little fun...:)

James Vincent III

05-20-2008, 08:47 PM

Clipshot,

There is a level of uncertainty when it comes to faith, because it includes "things not seen." Our certainty in faith comes from knowing God. But in the scenario you presented, I would call that just plain occultic! It's one thing to believe that the Lord will heal, but to deny someone readily present help when you want them to get better is just-- well, st-pid. What kind of testimony is that? As the ailing individual, though, excersizing faith by not taking pills or whatever is their choice. What if they have been healed...?

James

Mike Darley

05-22-2008, 12:05 AM

Look, I don't like to tell anyone I don't believe them, but I've seen a lot of this sort of thing turn out to be false or even faked. People I trusted swore that such and such a miracle had happened, but when examined more closely there was nothing miraculous. The sad part of this is that there has been so much counterfeited in the name of God, if and when God moves His people's first response is often skepticism.

El Ben

05-22-2008, 11:52 AM

jcrlanger, I just want you to know that I'm glad you piped in and gave your opinion.

Stephen, your comment was not cool. At all. Or funny. Don't do it again. Fred JUST got through asking us to keep it in love.

Others here respect your opinions and your skepticism and don't make snide, cutting remarks about them. Kindly respect the opinions and input of others.

Okay, I'm taking the moderator hat off now...

As for your earlier comment about the supernatural, stephen, I totally love the supernatural power of God to save us, but what about the supernatural power to heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead, to speak prophetically (with insight given to you by God that you couldn't know any other way.) Why are these supernatural things all of a sudden freaky or weird?

What makes those things sooooo unacceptable? I'm asking everyone. What's so freaky about the supernatural? If it was good enough for the Church and the apostles, why is it not good for us now?

I'm not talking about the revival at this point, so forgive me for getting off subject a little, but it seems to me that the big problem here isn't with the revival itself, but what happens there, namely supernatural manifestations of a corporate presence of the Spirit of God. Maybe I'm off the mark on that, but please, someone enlighten me because my brain's about to explode.

russhutto

05-22-2008, 12:41 PM

Ben, I'm with you there. No problems at all with the supernatural.

For me it comes down to the people involved. I'm not saying that God is or isn't moving in any of these revival situations. God can clearly do whatever He wants and move in any way He chooses. No doubts there.

I guess my "problem" if any is the "stuff seekers"...whenever I hear or see these kinds of revivals (even in my own city) it never fails that people put the "stuff" on a pedastal.

I get sick of hearing people talk about gold dust, animal noises, goose bumps, and the "signs" that God may be using and hardly ever talk about the God who could actually be behind all the stuff. Generally, it seems to never be "God is really changing my life so that I can be more useful to Him in bringing others to Him..." It seems to be more, "Look at all the stuff God is doing that tickles my fancy."

Listen, I don't have a problem with giving God praise for what He's done for us. I don't have a problem God growing out limbs or raising the dead. That stuff is Biblical.

I have a problem with sign chasers. With revival hoppers. It's almost a religion unto itself. I know some very fine people, who have great intentions, that just "can't plug in" to a local church because they're so busy chasing revival.

I love 24/7 prayer and worship. I love harp and bowl. I love intimate times of worship and intercession. I love gatherings where there's no agenda, no plan, but to only seek God and to "hear" what He says...

But when that's all these people do, where's the outreach? Where's the evangelism? Where's the body being the body in an everyday, dare I say normal, way? Where are the ordinary radicals, the everyday revolutionaries?

As long as a "move" of God is clearly GOD focused I'm cool with it.

I'm willing to accept that God is moving in very mysterious ways. I'm willing to be a part of it (as I have been my whole life). But I'm not willing to forsake true ministry (taking care of those who can't take care of themselves) to pursue "revival"...

Like I said in an earlier post: Revival happens daily in and through the Church being what God has called us to be.

brandon

05-22-2008, 01:07 PM

Blindeyesopen, I'm with you on this!!!

In my opinion "stuff seekers" = selfishness, it's what are you going to do for ME God? It's all about me, myself, and I.

Great Post!!

El Ben

05-22-2008, 01:48 PM

Russ, thank you for condensing my feelings into a much better put-together statement. :)

russhutto

05-22-2008, 02:05 PM

Ben, I love your signature quote!

stephen_can_man

05-22-2008, 02:43 PM

jcrlanger, I just want you to know that I'm glad you piped in and gave your opinion.

Stephen, your comment was not cool. At all. Or funny. Don't do it again. Fred JUST got through asking us to keep it in love.

Others here respect your opinions and your skepticism and don't make snide, cutting remarks about them. Kindly respect the opinions and input of others.

When someone joins the forum and leaves a comment with no identifying name, website, or way of contacting them and then makes incredulous statements about spontaneous gold teeth, that qualifies as spam in my opinion and they deserve a mod burn. If that came up in your e-mail how would you respond? You all know where I work and who I am if you would like to check into my statements, comments, or claims.

If it would help my case I can make a fake name, login, and then post some falsified statements that say the gold teeth stuff is a sham. But, since I believe that we are reasonble adults here, I think I will stick to my old methods of using scripture, logic, and verifiable past experiences to back up my statements...with a hint of sarcasm!

El Ben

05-22-2008, 03:10 PM

I'm sorry if you feel you were unecessarily burned. I was not trying to single you out and am only trying to remind you to keep it courteous just the same as I would any other user. I would, however, like to hear your answer to the question I mentioned in that same post.

stephen_can_man

05-22-2008, 03:56 PM

As for your earlier comment about the supernatural, stephen, I totally love the supernatural power of God to save us, but what about the supernatural power to heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead, to speak prophetically (with insight given to you by God that you couldn't know any other way.) Why are these supernatural things all of a sudden freaky or weird?

What makes those things sooooo unacceptable? I'm asking everyone. What's so freaky about the supernatural? If it was good enough for the Church and the apostles, why is it not good for us now?

Were miracles not good enough for Thomas?
Look what happened in John:

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

Did Jesus say, oh I guess you don't believe it so I won't prove it to you. No, here is what he did:

26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Doubt is a powerful tool that keeps us grounded and away from heresy. If Christ was unable or unwilling to prove the legitimacy of his ressurection he would have dismissed Thomas' request for proof. I believe the collective testimony of all those who witnessed Christ's ressurection because they were willing to sign there name to it, they were martyred for the cause. When Jesus healed someone, they were healed! They didn't have progressive healings or any of that garbage. And more often than not, the teaching was the focus, not the miracles.

I don't doubt that miracles happen, all I am saying is show me the scars to prove them. 20/20 launched an investigation into Benny Hinn a couple years back and not even ONE of the alleged healings was corroborated. What kind of message does that send to the world? I say follow the Savior and not the "signs" and you will be amazed at what verifiable miracles you will see.

El Ben

05-22-2008, 05:41 PM

And yet Jesus said to Thomas in the VERY NEXT VERSE:

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

You might want to get the whole picture contextually on proof texts that you offer. The bible is CRYSTAL clear on the fact that, without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Does that mean we check our brains at the door? Absolutely not, but it does mean that we have to, on occasion, take a leap of faith.

As for your comments about Benny Hinn (although I consider it kind of a bad forum etiquette to slam specific names and specific ministries, but that's a personal preference, so that one's up to you), there's nothing I can really say to disagree with you. That particular ministry has, on several occasions, left itself open to reproach and has embraced teaching commonly held as heretical.

But let's forget Benny Hinn. Let's talk about Martin Luther. The man is almost single-handedly responsible for jump-starting the Protestant Reformation and yet he was a blatant anti-semite. Do we discount the work he did or ignore his teaching? No. We take the good and leave the bad.

Andy Stanley teaches every week a word he claims is inspired by God. Do you question every word out of his mouth? What about Ed Young? How about your own pastor?

Why is it so easy to take what those guys say on faith and to IMMEDIATELY judge people who operate in the prophetic, in the gift of healing, or in signs and wonders? Seems a little belligerent to me.

stephen_can_man

05-22-2008, 08:18 PM

I didn't mean for this to get into apologetics, but, here we go.

And yet Jesus said to Thomas in the VERY NEXT VERSE:
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

You might want to get the whole picture contextually on proof texts that you offer. The bible is CRYSTAL clear on the fact that, without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Does that mean we check our brains at the door? Absolutely not, but it does mean that we have to, on occasion, take a leap of faith.

If you would have read my entire statement, you would have seen that, for me to believe is not just seeing for myself, but, the entire body of evidence as a whole. The sheer number of people who witnessed the accounts of Jesus and their willingness to die for this evidence is what compels me, even though I have not seen the scars for myself. So, my argument was, if i don't see it for myself there still has to be compelling evidence for me to believe. As far as "leap of faith," I don't think that "leap of" accurately describes what I understand biblical faith to be. Greg Koukl offers better insight:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bRuxYaiTg4g

Faith is trust. Trust is earned. If your faith is purely emotional, blind, or a leap, you might want to rethink what you believe and why you believe it. I trust Christ's words because he proved He was the Son of God by doing miracles and raising from the dead. That is not blind, it was a proven fact.

But let's forget Benny Hinn. Let's talk about Martin Luther. The man is almost single-handedly responsible for jump-starting the Protestant Reformation and yet he was a blatant anti-semite. Do we discount the work he did or ignore his teaching? No. We take the good and leave the bad.

My point exactly! I am asking what verifiable fruit and teachings are associated with these movements...more specifically with the Lakeland stuff. What are the results, good and bad?

Andy Stanley teaches every week a word he claims is inspired by God. Do you question every word out of his mouth? What about Ed Young? How about your own pastor?

MOST DEFINITELY! I question all of these teachings and critically analyze my own Pastor's messages, (often times with him) and the words I speak and write for this very reason: James chapter 3:

1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

The standards that God gives us are high, and, we must hold each other accountable for what we teach.

Why is it so easy to take what those guys say on faith and to IMMEDIATELY judge people who operate in the prophetic, in the gift of healing, or in signs and wonders? Seems a little belligerent to me.

Let's be honest, when someone has a track record of saying things that hold true with scripture and life, we question them less. When they focus on signs and wonders we are more skeptical because the content by it's very nature is "super" natural and not easily observed. The way that a lot of these revivals are done don't necesarilly contradict scripture, but, they don't support it either.

For example, I could claim that God wants you to have a billion dollars, you couldn't prove or disprove this statement through scripture. So if I go around saying this to everyone I meet, a lot of people will listen and like it. If I call myself a Christian, then it is word of faith. The claims by their very nature are vague, feel good, and often times not provable. The ambiguity is what allows faith healers to make these kinds of claims. Jesus' claims were proven.

Andy Stanley on the other hand makes statments that illustrate observable life pricinples, if they are not true it reflects immediately back on his teaching and leading abilities, because, by the very nature of the claims he makes he is trying to illustrate observable and applicable life principles that directly coincide with scripture. See where I am going with this? The more vague and generalized, and often times spiritualized, the less provable, and, the larger the riddiculous claims. The more practical and observable, the more open for scrutiny.

chrisfromcanada

05-22-2008, 10:55 PM

It seems like there's been less "buzz" about Lakeland this week than last but someone was telling me tonight that now they're saying 10 or 12 people have been raised from the dead? I'm thinking that if this is getting talked about we are going to find out really soon if this is legit or not.

James Vincent III

05-23-2008, 12:14 AM

BlindeyesOpen,

I agree 100% concerning "sign chasers." I also agree with what you said about true ministry. Revival hoppers actually make people like me look bad.

I typically don't like to go to conferences or revivals because I don't see the point if I am in God and growing according to His will. (I don't hold anyone to my disposition, and I certainly don't believe conferences are not of God.) I would not have gone if something in me hadn't bore witness to what was happening. But please understand, for me it wasn't about going, it was more about seeing what God was doing, receiving impartation, and seeking His will.
That said, what I really wanted to convey was something a well-respected, known, and confirmed prophet of God had spoken concerning what we've been seeing. He said, "This is not revival, it is maturity!" I suppose the reason everyone keeps calling it a revival is because that's the term people are accustomed to using, but Bob Jones (the prophet I quoted) said that the body of Christ had moved into this level of power; it is abiding. He said that it is a restoration of the ministry of Jesus and that it is no longer "here and there," but the church as a whole is getting ready to walk in NORMAL chritianity, you know, the Jesus Christ, BIBLE kind of christianity. Man cannot quench it, he said, because it is God's timing for his entire body.

I sure hope that "conference hoppers" don't give a bad name to what is happening, because I know for myself that it is real; not because of the miracles, but what God did in my heart when I went.

James

http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

stephen_can_man

05-23-2008, 02:56 AM

James, I am not here to refute what God has done in your heart. If you are closer to Him because of a powerful experience I don't want to quelch the fire God has placed inside you. I just want to give perspective and make sure that love and Godly maturity are the focus and direction. Peace to you brother!

russhutto

05-23-2008, 05:01 PM

That said, what I really wanted to convey was something a well-respected, known, and confirmed prophet of God had spoken concerning what we've been seeing. He said, "This is not revival, it is maturity!" I suppose the reason everyone keeps calling it a revival is because that's the term people are accustomed to using, but Bob Jones (the prophet I quoted) said that the body of Christ had moved into this level of power; it is abiding. He said that it is a restoration of the ministry of Jesus and that it is no longer "here and there," but the church as a whole is getting ready to walk in NORMAL chritianity, you know, the Jesus Christ, BIBLE kind of christianity. Man cannot quench it, he said, because it is God's timing for his entire body.

James, I appreciate your input. In fact, I agree with what you're saying about going vs. seeing, etc. I didn't say all I said to make light of your experience. As far as the quote above, I don't agree OR disagree with it. In fact, I'm hopeful that this is true.

But a part of me doesn't see how calling what's happening in a very specific location "abiding" and "the Body" accurate at all. I'm not saying that I don't want to be walking in Power and in the ministry of Jesus, because I do. In fact, I hope we all want and ACTUALLY walk it out day in and day out.

Jesus is the center. I hope NONE of us ever have to GO somewhere to "hear" or "see" what God is saying to the exclusion of seeking and listening right where we are.

When Jesus walked the earth, He drew large crowds. No problems with that. He performed miracles no problems with that. But when He ascended into Heaven He promised and sent the Holy Spirit. Not to a few specific people. Not to an elite select. But to all who waited and received.

That's all I'm saying. Everything that is "going on" down in Lakeland, if indeed it is truly a move of God, can happen any and everywhere. But I'm not going to get on a plane fly down and get "zapped" by a different Holy Spirit than I would if I just got "zapped" here.

(I'm all about getting "zapped" by the Spirit, It's a good thing!)

To any who read this: flock to the Shepherd not to the signs. Follow Jesus. Expect signs, desire signs, but don't worship signs.

James, I pray God's highest for your life, keep at it, bro!

El Ben

05-23-2008, 05:24 PM

Stephen, I've struggled on what to write to possibly convince you to be open, but I just realized a couple of minutes ago that I'm not gonna change your mind, so I'm going to stop trying. You have a right to believe what you believe and I have a right to believe what I believe, and we happen to believe different things, and if this discussion is any indication, that's not going to change any time soon. :)

What I will say is this: I have seen truly blind eyes truly opened. I have seen truly cancerous people truly healed. I have truly heard men and women (imperfect men and women, mind you) of God tell me every secret, hidden sin I thought no one knew about and was moved with conviction to repent. These things I have seen and know to be true because not only was I there in the moment, but I was there for years before to know that those eyes were truly blinded and the cancer was real and that the secret, hidden sin was truly secret and truly hidden and I was there for years after to see that the once-blind eyes weren't blind anymore, the cancerous tissue did NOT come back, and the secret and hidden sins became testimonies and not strongholds.

You know what, maybe what's going on in Lakeland has some funky stuff in it. Sure. Men are imperfect, but if there's another Ben Harrell in Lakeland seeing and hearing the same things I saw and heard as a kid, then I'll defend that move of God with my dying breath.

James Vincent III

05-24-2008, 12:10 AM

Amen, Ben! I also wanted to respond to Blindeyes' last post-- in no way am I encouraging or discouraging people from actually going to Lakeland. We all know that God is omnipresent, and if what is happening there is truly abiding as has been spoken, then there really is no need to travel there to "get" it. I just wanted to make that clear. Thanks for the encouragement, also!

Stephen, from one worship leader to another, we have a GREAT responsibility to the body of Christ. We communicate as forerunners in the heavens and then to the earth. Right now I can only speak about myself because I don't know what your worship is like; I'm sure it involves an awesome experience for you and those you lead. I have to always remember, however, that there is ALWAYS more. God is infinite. My passion for Him and His people compels me to seek the "more" that He has for us in these times. We as forerunners should continually be ascending to new heights in God. I would think it's mandatory!

I am not saying you're not ascending; as I stated, I don't know you at all. I would, however, encourage you to keep your eyes open concerning what God can and wants to do right now. You sound like you're not totally closed-minded, and I can definitely see that you want to be where God wants you. Just remember how vast the Lord is. I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to make you believe one way or the other; that's not my agenda at all. I just felt compelled to say this to you. And know that I prayed for you also-- I felt compelled to do that too!

The things God has for us even now are beyond our wildest dreams!!!

Let's Go Up,

James

http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

jcrlanger

05-26-2008, 04:15 PM

When someone joins the forum and leaves a comment with no identifying name, website, or way of contacting them and then makes incredulous statements about spontaneous gold teeth, that qualifies as spam in my opinion and they deserve a mod burn. If that came up in your e-mail how would you respond? You all know where I work and who I am if you would like to check into my statements, comments, or claims.

If it would help my case I can make a fake name, login, and then post some falsified statements that say the gold teeth stuff is a sham. But, since I believe that we are reasonble adults here, I think I will stick to my old methods of using scripture, logic, and verifiable past experiences to back up my statements...with a hint of sarcasm!

All right up front let me say Stephen I hold nothing against you. I feel God does not want me in any way to engage in debate of any kind because I feel this is what has distracted the church from Him in the past. The only reason I'm posting again is to give you a way to contact me with a web site - http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=158627335 I have nothing to hide or fear and since I've last posted enlarged lymph glands I've had since a child are no longer enlarged and my wife has arches in her feet where before she had none! You can believe what you want, but you did call me out and I hope this is enough for you to say that I did step up.
John A.
from North Carolina

fmckinnon

05-30-2008, 09:21 AM

Hey Gang -
Just posted an updated "appeal to leaders" from the editor of Charisma mag:
http://www.fredmckinnon.com/myblog/2008/05/29/lakeland-revival-an-appeal-to-church-leaders/

El Ben

06-02-2008, 10:54 AM

Again, a great and balanced report from the editor of Charisma

jackb7

06-02-2008, 11:43 AM

how people can so easily judge something so massive as a meeting of 10,000 people a night. Let us remember, brothers, that the things of the spirit are spiritually discerned.

I did like the Charisma report as it does show balance and takes care not to get ahead of itself. Show caution, pray, and pray some more....but if the movement spreads across the nation and people do get saved......

I went to Pensacola with an open mind. I ended up in an overflow room the first night I was there and wondered why I had driven so far for what I was experiencing UNTIL the Anointing filled the room (completely across the street from the actual service) and touched my life.

I went to a Benny Hinn meeting with an even more skeptical attitude, and found myself in the top row of the arena, with bad sight lines and some crazy woman manifesting in front of me. I had every reason to get up and leave unfullfilled UNTIL the Lord touched me in a mighty way.

I am intrigued by what is going on in Lakeland. My hope is that it is a real move of God that can usher in the coming of the Lord. We need revival. This is a broken, dying world that needs Jesus.

Pray.

chrisfromcanada

06-02-2008, 03:05 PM

I watched some of the God.tv video on Saturday night - I saw about the last 10 minutes of the show before they had something scheduled.

Here's what I saw - Todd prayed for several people with long-term deafness in either one or both ears. As he was praying for some, he put his hands on their head - one on each ear - and held the mic awkwardly as he spoke/prayed in to it. Sometimes he would say that he heard a "pop" as he prayed and he would push the person back as they would fall over.

One woman, who was deaf in both ears, didn't seem too willing to fall over. He had to pray for her three times - she stayed standing each time. He moved on.

At least two of the people he had prayed for while I was watching came back to him and said that they were still deaf. He prayed for them again and told them that he was casting out deaf and dumb spirits.

A woman with a very large tumour on the front of her face - I would guess it to be the size of a softball - came up and Todd prayed for her. The whole crowd joined in and there was a pretty significant buzz in the room. I wanted so bad for that tumour to fall off her face but it didn't. Todd told her that he was believing that the tumour would come off in her bed while she slept that night.

Granted, it was only 10 minutes. I saw nothing in that 10 minutes that would even come close to making me think that God is at work in that place. I am very much open to the idea and the possibility that this is a very legitimate "outpouring" (whatever that means) of the Spirit of God but on the limited evidence I have seen, it's hard to be convinced of that.

hefdaddy42

06-03-2008, 11:44 AM

I don't know anything about this event other than what I've read in this thread, but I know of similar events in the past.

I know that God is capable of healing and doing miraculous events in the everyday lives of his people; I have personal knowledge of such things.

But, come on: no one has been raised from the dead in Florida. That would be the news event of...well, ever. It has not happened.

cre8ted4praiz

06-03-2008, 12:38 PM

Russ, thanks. That is one of the best "setting it straights" I've seen on this "revival".

Mike Darley

06-03-2008, 12:56 PM

I live like 2 hours from this "revival" and know people who "run" in all kinds of Christian services. If someone had been raised from the dead, or grown a limb, or whatever, I would have heard about it. The first time I heard about this thing in Lakeland was on the board as well.

SaintLewis

06-03-2008, 01:16 PM

well, it should be noted that NO ONE has yet been claimed to have been 'raised from the dead' AT the revival... and as of yet, there has only been one claimed 'raising from the dead' that was proclaimed as a result of the revival that has been medically confirmed, and it took place in Michigan, and seems, to me, to be almost entirely unrelated to the revival in Florida, apart from some people in Florida that claim they were praying for her, and had been to the revival once. Otherwise, I'm with you....confirmations are important! Validate the miracles, please?

I should add, I've lightened up on this 'revival' a bit since it began a few months ago. I do respect Todd that he's not doing the 'Benny Hinn' and filtering the audience with in-ear monitors to men who are his 'eyes and ears' in the room... Todd prays for ANYONE, and if a healing doesn't occur, so be it. I respect that, as much as his theology scares me. At least he seems genuine. No, I won't be attending. No, I won't tell anyone else I know to attend, but if you're going to claim to 'heal', you better be willing to pray for ANYONE... I applaud that.

hefdaddy42

06-03-2008, 01:21 PM

El Ben

06-03-2008, 01:24 PM

SaintLewis

06-03-2008, 02:55 PM

Will all due respect, Ben, but auuuuuuuuuuuugh! That's just to say, you've kidding, right?! I believe in healing, prophecy, tongues - the whole deal, as do many of my friends (and particularly blogger friends)... I, personally, have been longing and praying for revival for years... I WANT IT...I WANT TO SEE IT...I'M WAITING FOR IT. I'm not convinced this is it, and it's simply for the reason that I want God's revival, not one that's man-made. When I pray about it, I feel deep reservations about what's going on in Florida. When I read the Word, then compare Florida to the life of Jesus, and the Apostles, my reservations grow even deeper. When I listen to the content of what's 'taught', my heart sinks (even though I acknowledge improvement since the event began). We just need to accept that it is possible for genuine, sold-out believers, who are waiting on a powerful move of God, and expectant that God can - and eventually will - do something powerful differ on what characteristics they are choosing to 'judge' this by. I'll admit it, most of the charismatics I admire most are very wary of Lakeland, & among them are many who have actually attended, but there are a few that think it may be the real deal, though a small few, and they have reservations too ...but most who attended wanted it to be the real deal, but came away unconvinced, & some very skeptical. It's not people seeing what the want to see. It's Christians trying to be discerning - I hope - and coming to varying conclusions. I guess, since there have been so many 'moves of God' where the leaders were Scripturally solid, and taught Biblical truth, that I see no reason to go to one where I see things that are so questionable. Personally, I'm still praying: praying that the healings are genuine (at least most of them), and the conversions authentic...but I'm also going to keep praying for revival as well.

I know you...I know you mean well, but it irks me to hear it implied that I - and others who have been critical of this - am only 'seeing what I want to see.' Simply not true.

stephen_can_man

06-03-2008, 03:21 PM

In the end, I think all of us are going to end up seeing what we want to see. If you want to see a move of God with miracles and healings and whatnot, you're gonna see that. If you want to see a hokey group of people getting whipped into a frenzy, then you'll see that.

I could be dead wrong, but I think if we were honest, most of us would have to admit that we've already decided in our hearts what this thing is all about and at this point are just defending our opinions.

Some of us are still looking for empirical data. But, something Saint Lewis said troubled me a bit...

I should add, I've lightened up on this 'revival' a bit since it began a few months ago. I do respect Todd that he's not doing the 'Benny Hinn' and filtering the audience with in-ear monitors to men who are his 'eyes and ears' in the room... Todd prays for ANYONE, and if a healing doesn't occur, so be it. I respect that, as much as his theology scares me. At least he seems genuine. No, I won't be attending. No, I won't tell anyone else I know to attend, but if you're going to claim to 'heal', you better be willing to pray for ANYONE... I applaud that.

Isn't theology just as, or more, important than methodology? We discuss this all the time at our church, because we are a ministry that intently reaches out to the unchurched. I understand that you were making a point that he has shown integrity by praying for everyone one, but, every lie has a bit of truth. If theology is even in question, AVOID!!!

Galatians Chapter 1:

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Let us not forget as well that Satan and demonic forces have the power to heal. If the theology is not rock solid, it opens up a breeding ground for trouble. Not only does this movement need confirmation of the miracles, it must also be biblically sound and consistent.

Mike Darley

06-03-2008, 07:36 PM

chipshot0701

06-04-2008, 07:25 AM

Do I have to pay admission to get in to be saved/healed by this guy? And if so, why?

SaintLewis

06-04-2008, 08:31 AM

[QUOTE=Isn't theology just as, or more, important than methodology? [/QUOTE]

Indeed, it is. Isn't it always good practice, however, to admit when and where you see growth/improvement? It's by no means an endorsement (I think I was clear on that), but as I'm sure you and I would both agree, it's hard to 'change', particularly when criticized publicly. Our pride wants to dig in and not ever consider the option, lest we empower our critics. Though he hasn't 'publicly apologized', certain changes make it very clear that he's listened, which is to be admired.

Mike Darley

06-04-2008, 10:23 AM

chipshot0701

06-04-2008, 11:26 AM

http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/29/1075189.aspx

hefdaddy42

06-04-2008, 12:06 PM

Well, that was an interesting read.

El Ben

06-04-2008, 04:02 PM

Guys, I hear what you're saying, but let me lay it down for you like this:

If you tried to give me a critique of a CD you'd never even listened to, I'd laugh in your face, tell you to listen to the CD, and then get back to me. If you've been in the meetings or have watched at least one all the way through on God TV, I'm open to hearing what you have to say. If you've not seen or heard firsthand what's going on in Florida, then you don't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to open criticism.

Let's put it another way: I'd tell you to read Jonathan Edwards' sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God before you attempted to rip it apart theologically. Give me a sermon (a whole one, not thirty seconds you found on YouTube) that has been preached at this revival that reveals gross theological misinformation.

If there's bad theology, then why don't we pray that God would either use the appropriate apostolic authority or personally show those in error the error of their ways? It's way to easy to sit in our padded office chairs and rip apart things we know nothing about.

I'll tell you what, let me issue this challenge: if you're close enough to go to this thing, then check it out. If not, watch at least one entire service as it streams on God TV, then come back and tell me about all the bad theology you encountered. Heck, I'll even settle for a written transcript you find on some heresy-hunting website, so long as its in context.

SaintLewis

06-05-2008, 12:45 PM

I've watched it (for at least 2-3 hours each time) on about 4 different occasions now, from long before most had any idea it was even available to watch. Given that I've had multiple friends who have gone, some of which were prayed for and declared 'healed', none of which actually ARE healed, and given all of what I've reported in my blogs on the subject, I don't know that I want to subject myself to something that may very well be spiritually bad for me. Much like I don't feel the need to listen to c.d.'s that I know for a fact are filled with messages I won't want getting into my head & heart (I listen to a lot, but even I have my limits), I think I've heard enough that - though I'm not condemning him as an absolute heretic, I don't think I would be comfortable having him lay hands on me, not do I want to sit under his ministry. If you ask me what I think of the newest Slayer album, I'll give you my thoughts, even though I haven't heard it. And if you ask me to listen, I'll tell you 'no' - I know just enough about them to know I've better things to invest my time & energy in (& subject my spirit to). Does that make sense?

I am praying for him - not that he'd hear some 'apostolic authority', but that he'd simply hear God in the Scripture. That'd be enough.

So, go ahead - go. I won't judge you. My conscience will not allow me to do so, but you are not judged by my conscience, nor I yours, and that is OKAY. Isn't it?

SaintLewis

06-05-2008, 04:05 PM

I just discovered this very interesting audio interview with Terry Virgo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Virgo), oft-called an 'Apostle' by many, founder of New Frontiers International (http://www.newfrontiers.xtn.org/) (just under 1000 churches in 29 nations), Charismatic preacher, and author. In a recent leadership conference he gave a detailed report, positive & negative, on the goings on in Lakeland (http://adrianwarnock.com/2008/06/audio-terry-speaks-about-todd-bentley.htm). Balanced, thorough, and very fair, I think we will all agree. It's not short, but it's well worth listening to, especially considering his past involvement with the Toronto Blessing. By no means do I agree with him on every point, but he does give us much to think about.

blessings...

James Vincent III

06-08-2008, 12:56 AM

James Vincent III

06-08-2008, 09:16 AM

Okay so whose seen the clips of this guy when he says that God told him to hit and kick people. He says he's basically praying for revival and God told him to get on top of the pastor (full mount UFC style) and choke him. He also mentioned a time when this guy said he should kick some old lady in the face. I mean, I'm all for being open to what the Spirit is doing, but sometimes you can be so open minded that your brain falls out.

O.K., so what if God really did tell him to do that? Then what? Did the "kick in the face" make the old lady's condition worse? What were the results of these actions? Don't mean to be antagonistic, but blah, blah, blah...

James

http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

stephen_can_man

06-08-2008, 02:51 PM

Let's all remember, especially in these times, that prayer and spiritual discernment are key. Stay in close communion with the Holy Spirit because what looked like God in the past may not be God now, and VICE-VERSA!!! Our past reasonings may have to be thrown out of the window... our minds can be our greatest enemy.

I guess that's my problem, I let my mind get in the way. I have always had a major problem with doing that. For some reason I tend to use my intellect instead of putting it aside when faced with questions. When will I learn to feel the right answers, especially in "these times"? Stephen Colbert has a word for it, truthiness. Who needs objective truth? I just need to let my mind go and feel the right answer, it worked for Jim Jones' followers. Sorry, but, I'm not drinking the koolaide...

fmckinnon

06-08-2008, 06:41 PM

James,
I couldn't help but laugh because 'blah, blah, blah' about describes this thread at this point.

Everyone is free to continue discussing if you want - I don't really want to close the thread, but let's start spending more energy creating some new threads or replying to existing ones about how awesome our God is, how we're worshiping Him, how He's moving in our local churches, techniques we're using, creative concepts we've tried, etc ...

how'z that for an idea?
Do I have a motion? Do I have a second?
:)

James Vincent III

06-09-2008, 08:50 AM

I guess that's my problem, I let my mind get in the way. I have always had a major problem with doing that. For some reason I tend to use my intellect instead of putting it aside when faced with questions. When will I learn to feel the right answers, especially in "these times"? Stephen Colbert has a word for it, truthiness. Who needs objective truth? I just need to let my mind go and feel the right answer, it worked for Jim Jones' followers. Sorry, but, I'm not drinking the koolaide...

So... was Jesus drinking the kool-aid when he wouldn't give in to the reasoning of the Pharisees? They actually had a valid argument when it came to God's word!!! How about Paul? or Peter?

In response to Fred, I don't know... I think what God is doing right now is awesome. If it wasn't for his awesomeness, I wouldn't have even started this thread... The Lakeland outpouring is not the true focus, but more the residing power of God that seemed to have been released there! It is spreading all over the world, and while there have always been testimonies of this nature throughout time, [did anyone read my former posts?] it has been confirmed by confirmed prophets of God that this is not just some revival meeting, but will continue because it is now an abiding power for the entire body of Christ.

I'm trying my best not to sound flaky, or even for my sake "out on a limb", but I don't believe "blah, blah, blah" describes the MIGHTY POWER OF THE EVERLASTING ONE!

James

http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

fmckinnon

06-09-2008, 09:13 AM

James,
I hear ya - the "blah blah blah" I was referring to was the bantering back and forth between 2-3 people on the thread ... God is so incredibly awesome and incredible, that's for certain.

Mike Darley

06-09-2008, 10:05 AM

O.K., so what if God really did tell him to do that? Then what? Did the "kick in the face" make the old lady's condition worse? What were the results of these actions? Don't mean to be antagonistic, but blah, blah, blah...

James

James,

Is there an action that a person could do that you couldn't ask, "What if God told him to do that?" I mean I'd have thought kicking someone in the face would be one, but I guess not. As far as the lady's condition, if I'm guessing it's about the same, except now she also has a sore face.

SaintLewis

06-09-2008, 10:10 AM

I think this thread is very helpful in showing how different individuals use and apply discernment and critical thinking. I think it is very clear that there are some here who 'feel' their way to truth (which in and of itself is dangerous - 'the heart is deceptive above ALL THINGS'), and there are those who 'think' their way to truth (as though our minds were not somehow affected in the 'fall' whatsoever).

For instance, in part I agree with James - God can surprise us, but how far can and will He go? If God is the same yesterday, today, & forever, is the Spirit going to spit in the face of the Spirit - i.e., if He says one thing in his Word, will He then do the opposite later? If so, how do you know that though God revealed himself in Jesus, that he's not now revealing himself through Rev. Moon? Where do you, personally, draw the line?

Personally, I've learned a LOT through this thread: I sorta see myself as the 'mediator' of two extremes (since I've been cessationist, and am a self-critical charismatic, who recognized that there are nutjobs among us), and I've come to a deeper understanding of how each side reasons - emotionally and rationally - to their positions.

I am interested to know, where each of you draw the line, and more importantly, why. For instance, myself, given what I see in the Word - that though the mind may be mistaken, it is the heart that actively deceives itself - I try to direct my heart with my mind. In other words, though I distrust both, and try to remain open to correction (from the Word, so if you've got a critique you can't back up with a verse IN CONTEXT, it probably won't have much of an impact - opinion doesn't carry much weight in my book, unless it's God's opinion), I recognize that my heart is far more likely to try to mislead me, than my mind, which merely may be mistaken. For that reason I always immediately double-check (and triple-check) my emotions, intuition, & etc. I try to discern what I feel about something, and what factors - past experiences, individuals, and even the 'wording' (the language in which something in phrased can greatly affect whether we emotionally lean immediately towards accepting something or rejecting it) - may have made me reflexively lean in favor of or against something. That's what I TRY to do, but I know I don't do it perfectly. Someone else, however, who has been raised up in an environment that has been both charismatic, and generally positive (giving them no emotional reason to be skeptical of how they've been 'raised'), who has heard warnings not so much to be 'discerning', but to not 'quench the Spirit', and to not 'miss a move of God'... someone like that is not going to be nearly as skeptical, and will over-look a lot more, because they'd rather be wrong (even if that may be Biblically harmful?) than risk the possibility of missing an experience of God. Anyway - those are my observations so far.

Thoughts?

jackb7

06-09-2008, 10:11 AM

I think we are closest to the truth when we realize that the move of God may not look like we want it to...

SaintLewis

06-09-2008, 10:16 AM

SaintLewis

06-09-2008, 10:20 AM

I think we are closest to the truth when we realize that the move of God may not look like we want it to...

YES, and amen - agreed 100%, BUT what if it doesn't look like what - Scripturally - it appears, as far as He's told us, what GOD want it to look like? What then? That's the real issue, isn't it?

jackb7

06-09-2008, 11:36 AM

why did you edit my post?

stephen_can_man

06-09-2008, 01:48 PM

I think we are closest to the truth when we realize that the move of God may not look like we want it to...

I think this is a poor idea. I have heard this said many times and it is certainly not scriptural. The best indicator of who God is, and, how He works is found in His Word and by what He has already done. He said that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If that is true, then we should judge what is happening now based on WHAT WE KNOW TO BE TRUE. I think that God has a fingerprint that He has stamped all throughout history that is consistent with Biblical times and post Biblical times. Seriously though, is kicking someone in the face the fingerprint of Christ?

Also James, Jesus condemned the pharisees for their HEARTS, not with their keeping of the law. They did things to be seen by men, not because they wanted to be righteous in God's eyes. It was the hypocricy more than the deeds.

SaintLewis

06-09-2008, 02:01 PM

why did you edit my post?

Very sorry, Jackb7 - since being made a 'mod' there are some different buttons on my screen, and I accidentally hit the 'edit' button instead of 'quote', while trying to make a response post. That said, I finished the changes and saved them before I realized it. If you want to repost, I can understand.

So sorry for the inconvenience!

stephen_can_man

06-09-2008, 02:04 PM

I think we are closest to the truth when we realize that the move of God may not look like we want it to...

Sorry I didn't say what I wanted...think of this as the prequel to my last post.
What I wanted to say was, I have heard people say things like this to justify barking like a dog in the church, or, slapping people to heal them etc. I am not reading what I want into a situation when I say something is not consistent with scripture. In my opinion, the people who are trying to justify that something is of God use statements like these to explain away the fact that it could just as easily be Satan at work, and that they have no proof other than their feelings to justify the actions. It's as if by saying 'God can do things however He wants' you can reason away the fact that God has consistency in His character so that we can determine what is of Him and what is not.

2 Corinthians 4:
6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a]made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
7But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

jremnant

06-09-2008, 04:12 PM

As an aside note, does ANYONE here know anyone personally who was healed of any significant condition at the Lakeland Revival? Not 'my headache went away', but the 'I had a tumor, verified by the doctors, and I got prayed for, returned to my doctor, and He was so blown away that He accepted Jesus on the spot' type of miracles. I have several friends who have gone, and their reports, and the reports of those around them, have not been so positive. I would love to hear, at least 2nd hand, from someone who has personally experienced significant healing through this. Please?

I had a personal friend in the ministry that was dying with pancriatic cancer...went to the Florida outpouring...Todd prayed over him...went back home to his doctor...after test...doctors found no trace of the cancer...completley 100% healed by the power of God

SaintLewis

06-09-2008, 04:45 PM

I had a personal friend in the ministry that was dying with pancriatic cancer...went to the Florida outpouring...Todd prayed over him...went back home to his doctor...after test...doctors found no trace of the cancer...completley 100% healed by the power of God

Praise God! Does he have a website? I've had 2 friends die of Pancreatic Cancer - it's just about the most deadly form of cancer known. Is the local news on his story yet (they love this sorta thing, so they'd be excited to report it, I'm sure)? What was the response of his doctor? Details, man - and if you don't know 'em, ask the fellow! Thanks for replying. It's good to hear a good report that's not given from a stage and televised.

El Ben

06-11-2008, 03:27 PM

I just got a call from a friend of mine in Columbus (he attends Solid Rock Assembly of God there) who reported to me that his brother (who was in the last stages of lung cancer) just got back from Lakeland and felt like God had healed him. He got tested three times and my friend said the doctor was blown away and had said (and I quote) "It's like someone went in and removed each cancerous cell."

In the words of my friends at Bethel Church, "Yay God!"

russhutto

06-11-2008, 04:10 PM

From the latest issue of Collide:

Seekers and skeptics are born to every generation and mingle in every crowd. Seekers are receptive to the miraculous, responding with amazement and a vibrant inquisitiveness. They are forward looking and search for meaning behind the miraculous, alert for the possibilities phenomenal events imply. They welcome dialog, ask questions, and listen for answers.

Skeptics, though, habitually reject new works with confident scorn, impling or even declaring that the work of the Spirit is, in fact, the work of the flesh. They sit above fresh movements with disdain, their judgement separating them from seekers. Avoiding dialog, skeptics instead declare their rejection and denial of the miraculous.

Can you guess what this article is about? Stigmata? Toronto Revival? Gold Dust? Healing? Lakeland Outpouring? Azusa Street? Miracles? Dead Raising?

Not quite. This excerpt is taken from an article about technology. And how it relates to evangelizing the next generation.

However, the generalization made in that brief passage is pretty accurate.

I'm not saying anybody that has posted an opinion or observation is either or, but I just wanted to include it as a question for us to ponder individually and quietly:

Am I a seeker or a skeptic?

stephen_can_man

06-11-2008, 04:16 PM

I wonder if the owner of that quote owned a pet rock?

chrisfromcanada

06-11-2008, 04:47 PM

SaintLewis

06-12-2008, 09:47 AM

From the latest issue of Collide:
Am I a seeker or a skeptic?

Both? I am a critical minded seeker: I am receptive to the genuinely miraculous, and both amazed and interested in it, when it's the 'real deal'. At the same time, I do recognize with the skeptics, that all-too-often what may appear on the surface to be a 'work of the Spirit' is in-fact flesh, or even worse. However, I am always open for dialogue, and am eager to be corrected, and change my mind fairly quickly when convinced otherwise.

Good question, though, Russ!

SaintLewis

06-12-2008, 09:55 AM

I wish these stories would get the same amount of airtime as giving the pastor a legdrop. If the story is legit then it needs to be told a million times!

I do agree. I have heard so many of the supposed announced 'healings' at Lakeland be invalidated and shown 'failed' or false, that it's good to hear that someone was truly touched there, and apparently there have been a few. So far my personal (ie - friends, or friends of friends, or just solidly validated healings/miracles) tally is that of around 15 announced healing/miracles that I have contact to, 3 or 4 have been genuine to at least some degree. At first that sounds like a bad number (it IS bad that they were so careless as to announce that the others were 'healed' from stage without any solid verification - is that not at least close to 'lying'?), but for those who were healed, it is life-changing.

Here's my next question, however: does that 'healing' have more to do with Bentley's possible 'annointing' to heal, the individual's faith who was healed, simply the sovereign choice of God, or possibly a combination of those. I'm beginning to lean towards the genuine healings being a combo of 2 & 3 - personal faith & God's sovereignty. In other words, Bentley - as wacky as he may be - has created an environment which is being used in the hearts of some genuine believers to deepen their faith, and God is responding in to those. Anyway - just one thought.

stephen_can_man

06-12-2008, 12:26 PM

Am I a seeker or a skeptic?

I think that I am with Saint Lewis. When I heard about Planning Center Online for example, I thought it was going to be useless like many other programs. So, I went about systematically dissecting it, waying the pros and cons and pretty much attacking the support guys and software developers. At the end, it really withstood my barages and now I have 4 ministries within our church all utilizing this online program. But, I didn't feel comfortable embracing something that could not withstand my intense questioning. This is how I look at most novel things, I pull it apart with the intent to prove that it will not stand the test of time. If whatever I am analyzing holds up under intense scrutiny, I will personally be the first to adopt it and be the ambassador in bringing it to the masses. Spiritually as well.

Seeker, skeptic? I think I am both as well...

russhutto

06-12-2008, 03:47 PM

Seeker, skeptic? I think I am both as well...

Me too. Which is why that excerpt hit me between the eyes. I think it's good to be balanced, but I also struggle with being too cynical at times.

Lord, help us all to have faith like a child, courage like a lion, heart like a tin robot, brains like a scarecrow, and moves like a chess game.

James Vincent III

06-12-2008, 09:43 PM

This is how I look at most novel things, I pull it apart with the intent to prove that it will not stand the test of time. If whatever I am analyzing holds up under intense scrutiny, I will personally be the first to adopt it...

Whoa, Stephen... I would hate to be your child...

Just kidding. I don't think skepticism is ALL bad. I do think that sometimes we as mankind can stay in the realm of reason too long, though-- myself included. By the time my skepticism has been disproved, everything is over and I have to wait to "pass the test" another time. That's not necessarily the case here, but all I'm saying is that I don't want to waste time over and over because I have to filter everything through this intellect first. Yes, yes, I know that that's what brains are for, but we do have communion with the spirit of God, don't we?

One other thing... what if this outpouring isn't really God (although I experiened it and know it is, but for sake of scenario)...? Then what? Do we just carry on as normal? Or do we seek the Lord for that kind of power to accomplish what the Lord wants to do in the earth?

I am a worship leader, but I don't want to just sing good songs and make everyone feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I don't just want a heavenly-like experience (and that is awesome!) over and over-- I want to see strongholds come down over nations! I want to see the dead raised, cancers die, people being radically saved! I don't want to sit back and wait to see if something is real, I want God's power to work like that in and through me!!!

Can I get an Amen?

James

http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

stephen_can_man

06-12-2008, 11:10 PM

I am a worship leader, but I don't want to just sing good songs and make everyone feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I don't just want a heavenly-like experience (and that is awesome!) over and over-- I want to see strongholds come down over nations! I want to see the dead raised, cancers die, people being radically saved! I don't want to sit back and wait to see if something is real, I want God's power to work like that in and through me!!!

Can I get an Amen?

James

I have certainly felt at times in worship at our church we sing a song and do a dance, then, we go home. But, I want to dispell the myth that it takes miracles to shake a nation. We are one of the few United Methodist churches that is outreach oriented and last year we had 71 adult baptisms, the second highest in our state for the United Methodist church. We are far down on the list of church sizes, but the impact we are able to make is huge. Why is this so...

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

The miracle that I am most proud of at our church was a few months ago when a young man covered in tattoos, who was once angry at God and the church, found a church home, got saved, and was baptized. I asked him what the difference was, and he told me somewhere between the time that the "preppy" worship leader invited him and his "live in" girlfriend to their home and the time that he walked into a church that didn't look at him strange for his tattoo covered body, God got a hold of his heart and wouldn't let go. No fan fare, just plain old love. That is the kind of miracle that I seek.

tlhartsfield

06-13-2008, 09:22 AM

No fan fare, just plain old love. That is the kind of miracle that I seek.
Yes, yes, yes. Very well said.

jcrlanger

06-13-2008, 09:39 AM

Is everyone ready for this conversation to increase a bit?

Geraldo At Large on FoxNews Channel 10pm EST this Saturday (14 Jun) is suppose to be interviewing Todd. Let's see what comes of this.

John

James Vincent III

06-13-2008, 05:49 PM

The miracle that I am most proud of at our church was a few months ago when a young man covered in tattoos, who was once angry at God and the church, found a church home, got saved, and was baptized. I asked him what the difference was, and he told me somewhere between the time that the "preppy" worship leader invited him and his "live in" girlfriend to their home and the time that he walked into a church that didn't look at him strange for his tattoo covered body, God got a hold of his heart and wouldn't let go. No fan fare, just plain old love. That is the kind of miracle that I seek.

I fully agree, Stephen, but let's remember that the compassion of Jesus moved Him to do miracles! Any miracle done should be out of the love of God, and if we do miracles in the name of Jesus by the spirit of God, then "the kingdom is come unto us!"

Not you, Stephen, but I've known people to use "love" and the bible as a cop-out when it came to going beyond themselves. God is GOOD! His goodness leads us to repentance. Whether it be through simple acts of kindness, a harsh word, or an all-out can't-deny-it miracle, it's ALL God's goodness. I want the fullness of His goodness to find place in me in order to do and move whatever and however He wants.

I never said that miracles were the only way; that would be absurd. Many of the disciples started following Jesus without having seen anything yet. But through the goodness of God, miracles have their place. Through the goodness of God, mercy, love, healings, kindness have their place. I repeat:I want the fullness of His goodness to find place in me in order to do and move whatever and however He wants.

James

http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

chrisfromcanada

06-18-2008, 04:48 PM

Is everyone ready for this conversation to increase a bit?

Geraldo At Large on FoxNews Channel 10pm EST this Saturday (14 Jun) is suppose to be interviewing Todd. Let's see what comes of this.

John

Did anyone watch this?

jcrlanger

06-18-2008, 04:53 PM

Did anyone watch this?

You should be able to see it on You Tube. Can't get a link for you because I'm at work (you tube is blocked)

John

Mike Darley

06-18-2008, 05:11 PM

Mike Darley

06-18-2008, 05:12 PM

I hope I put that up correctly. He said he'd give documented evidence. We'll see how that goes.

fmckinnon

06-18-2008, 06:59 PM

It's up there, personally, I was very impressed with the interview. One thing is for sure - Todd has put himself on the line. Geraldo won't run from it - he'll dig as deep as he can. (Of course, if you dig deep enough, you'll find anything you want on anyone).

James Vincent III

06-18-2008, 11:14 PM

I saw the interview. I thought Todd did well considering... And like Fred said, maybe Geraldo will "learn" that Todd was a cross-dresser back in the 1850's or something.

James

http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

Mike Darley

06-19-2008, 01:08 AM

If they are real, honest to goodness, miracles there's nothing Geraldo or anyone can do or say to disprove them. For example, Todd mentioned a kidney ailment. If there is proof that this person had a kidney problem, and that there is no other explanation like some other treatment or the sickness running its course, then there's not much Geraldo can say about it except, "Wow."

SaintLewis

06-19-2008, 10:26 AM

I'd be MUCH happier, however, if they sought out solid medical verification BEFORE they marched folks across the stage and proclaimed them 'healed'. It would do a great deal for their reputation. Personally, I have investigate, to the best of my ability - through personal contact, articles, and other research - over 15 of the supposed miracles, and only 3 of the 15 had proven genuine (and for those 3 folks, it's AWESOME)... it's almost tantamount to 'lying' to announce to the world on TV from a stage that someone is healed of something, if it's not true. It'd be a pretty simple correction to make, it would seem.

It would also end the embarrassment of someone claiming to have been raised from the dead, and then calling the doc who says "um, excuse me - they were never dead" or the woman who supposedly was healed of deafness, whom - when independent investigators called her house and talked to her husband, he replied, "my wife? She's never been deaf!" There's been a lot more of that than is necessary, and a little investigation ahead of time to cease that.

chipshot0701

06-20-2008, 11:51 AM

jcrlanger

06-20-2008, 04:47 PM

On Yahoo news today "Teenager from faith-healing family dies in Oregon"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080619/ap_on_re_us/faith_healing_death;_ylt=AhEmrQLlBqnBDuyoRQK4.XJH2 ocA
We all know that this isn't the first time that this has happened. I hope that all those that attend and are healed go for check ups afterward.

We all can be in agreement with this. There is a level of faith, then there is a level of insanity. Even Luke was a physician. Also I have this article from the Charlotte Observer here in North Carolina - http://www.charlotte.com/local/story/676527.html
Please check out the link for the testimonies and the Q&A is very interesting.

Bless you all
John

chipshot0701

06-20-2008, 06:25 PM

a real miracle would be if the State of S C will be able to produce "I Believe" license plates!

I was just reading the charlotte observer news about the advocacy group wanting to stop SC from producing I Believe license plates. Siting separation of church and state the advocacy group wants to ban the plates.
Sad...really. especially considering the stories in the same news paper that describe things like murder, embezzlement, death and doom.
Maybe they want to ban "I believe" plates because its really really hard to BELIEVE right now.
mike
ps. this doesnt really fit this thread. but the news article was in the same edition and I couldnt stop reading after the Bently article.

carguy1

07-08-2008, 03:33 PM

Brrrr, it's cold under this rock. Oh, wow, it's much warmer out here in the sunshine.

anyways, I live like 20 minutes from Lakeland and I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Please forgive my ignorance (about this particular event) and fill me in.

I am not ignorant to the discussion about healing and being filled with the spirit and all that. While I was raise baptist, I do believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. However, for right now I want to know about this event that slipped right by me.

cre8ted4praiz

07-08-2008, 05:46 PM

You can read about it on their website. www.revivallakeland.org (http://www.revivallakeland.org)

Or if you have GodTV or access to it, it is on their airwaves way too long! :)

(Sorry, I miss the other shows.)

SaintLewis

08-05-2008, 06:51 PM

I’m sure some of my friends leaning further into the ‘reformed’ camp will immediately question me for having gone, and I can entirely understand why: a scattering of unBiblical teachings from the ‘pulpit’, a number of examples of overblown claims, and some practices that are questionable at best. Don’t worry, folks - I’m still with you on those, but please hear me out.

Overall, I was really challenged and blessed there.

the rest of this blog response is HERE... (http://heatlight.wordpress.com/2008/08/05/the-lakeland-outpouring-now-i-have-gone-and-these-are-my-thoughts/)

chrisfromcanada

08-12-2008, 04:05 PM

http://religion.theledger.com/default.asp?item=2248784

Todd Bentley, the evangelist who has led the Florida Outpouring revival here in Lakeland since April 2, has filed for separation from his wife and might not return to the revival, according to his former local spokesperson, Lynne Breidenbach. She said Bentley made the announcement to his staff this afternoon. Bentley and his wife, Shonnah, have two daughters and a son and are Canadian citizens. Under Canadian law, separation is a first step in divorce proceedings and takes nine months. Bentley and his wife have been in marriage counseling for several months, Breidenbach said. She called the situation "very sad" but insisted it "doesn't invalidate what Todd did" at the revival.

stephen_can_man

08-12-2008, 06:26 PM

Hmmmmm... does "I told you so" go well here?

yod1948

08-12-2008, 07:46 PM

I think this is a pretty great opportunity for wisdom and maturity. We've been praying here that if it is truly of God that it would be made famous - that it would continue, expand and spread around the world.

you mean like Islam or hinduism?

"many will say in that day Lord Lord did we not cast out demons and heal people in your name? and I will say depart from Me I never knew you

I have friends that have gone there and loved it. People I trust...but I still think they are only being deceived. I do believe it is a work of God...a strong delusion. People get healed every day in many ways. Can it happen in a meeting where Todd Bentley is? Why not? On the surface, healing is not necessarily a sign that can be trusted as an endorsement from God.

I've held my tongue for a long time but I believe David Reagan sums it up in such a way where I shouldn't be silent anymore

http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles.php

russhutto

08-12-2008, 09:56 PM

Edit: Yod's post jumped in there before mine.

Hmmmmm... does "I told you so" go well here?

No not really, because last time I checked, ANYone, and I mean anyone that spends that much time in ministry has got to be neglecting other areas of their life. In this case their marriage. I doesn't invalidate the signs ans wonders (if they were indeed real) it just wrecks his credibility and leaves a marriage and family shattered by the wayside.

It's sad and merits our prayers, not our stones.

stephen_can_man

08-12-2008, 10:37 PM

Questionable theology and marital problems to me are enough to discredit his ministry and this revival. But, if you are desperate to be healed it really doesn't matter what he says or does...and really that seems to be the two perspectives on this whole discussion anyway. I think this guy could spew out anything and not be held accountable, that is, if someone claims they were healed. Will anyone agree that Satan has the power to heal? Will anyone agree that spiritual truth matters more than physical healing?

yod1948

08-13-2008, 01:47 AM

It's sad and merits our prayers, not our stones.

I could not agree more with you here, brother.

When I first became a believer, I had been married for 13 years and lived the rock singer partying lifestyle. My wife played along with my newness of life for 5 years before walking out on me and 4 little children.

So here I was, "worship leader" and single dad. I never got any condemnation from the saints over it...but I was too broken to remain in ministry and needed a couple of years for healling.

So my only question about this is why doesn't he take some time away for restoration?

Was his marriage truly that meaningless and disposable?

russhutto

08-13-2008, 12:33 PM

Stephen, I don't disagree with what you're saying. In fact, I'm probably closer to where you are on the spectrum than my post would let on to...

But I'm talking about the man's marriage and the living, breathing people who have been affected by this separation. Does it indicate that he's got issues? Sure. Does it add to his lack of credibility? You bet.

Does it make him less worthy of our prayers? Not a bit.

Does it mean we should casually throw him out without a second thought at restoration? No way.

I don't "get" the Lakeland revival. In fact, I'm one of those who is very, very cynical about things of that nature, yet I can't find myself writing the PEOPLE that are involved off. I continue to pray for them.

I hope you will too. Remember, even if we disagree with his theology, he's a child of God who needs grace just as much as we do. So while being wary and vigilant against heresy and false truths, we, at the same time, should continue to "love our enemies."

chrisfromcanada

08-13-2008, 02:13 PM

you mean like Islam or hinduism?

Yes. That's exactly what I mean. Thank you for clarifying.

James Vincent III

08-19-2008, 09:43 PM

I think this guy could spew out anything and not be held accountable...

Err... anyone keeping up with the whole Lakeland thing knows that Bentley was commissioned under the authority of the ICA for accountability purposes. Plus his board asked him to step down after the whole marraige thing. jeeez! Todd Bentley is my brother in Christ... is he yours?

Let's Go Up,

James

http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com/WORSHIP%20BEYOND%20BANNER%201.jpg (http://www.worshipbeyondradio.com)

stephen_can_man

08-19-2008, 09:55 PM

russhutto

08-20-2008, 09:34 AM

Read this yet?

James 3:1
1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

Yes, we've all read that. Which is all the more reason to pray for the dude. Since, neither you, me, or anyone else reading this is never at fault, perfect, or able to keep our whole bodies in check, there's more reason for us to pray for those who are inaccurate, wrong, and heretical.

Discipline them? Yes.

Judge them more strictly? Yes.

Restore them? Yes.

Mock them, berate them, slander them, curse them, forget them? NO!

What I've been learning in this whole situation that even though, as a "teacher" he HAS TO BE judged strictly, that my sin which is not laid bare before an adoring or critical public, is no less than his. My sin is just as sinnish. And I need the same forgiveness and grace from God, and from His followers.

And because of that, even in the light of being judged as a teacher, God's grace is still big enough to forgive that sin. Same for me, same for you, same for Todd.

My prayers are for his family.

My prayers are for him.

My prayers are for us.

worshiptrench

09-08-2008, 06:16 PM

Will anyone agree that spiritual truth matters more than physical healing?

YES! YES! YES! I don't care what happens in a "revival" if people say they are healed, met God or whatever. If they cannot in elementary terms articulate that:

1. They have a sin problem.
2. The death, burial and resurrection of Christ is changed their status with God.

It isn't a revival.

That is my one complaint against some proclaimed "movements." Teach all you want (okay not all you want) on the blessed life, but only after you articulate that people's real problem isn't a low bank account or physical sickness isn't their deepest problem. Sin is. I feel sorry for some "movement" pastors at judgment. As God looks at the 30,000 people who went to his church and says to each his parishoners, "Depart, I never knew you.... You prayed to me for blessings, but never availed yourself of what I made available on the Cross," I wonder if people are going to lock eyes with the pastor at exit time and wonder aloud, "Why didn't you tell me? You increased my bank account but lost my soul. What a horrid feeling for the pastor as they realize their ultimate failure.

(as to mr. bentley's teachings, they were borderline occult oriented centering on the angel Emma and gold angel dust, rather than on the person and work of Christ on the cross and in the resurrection. The bible speaks of knowing by their fruit, namely fruit not being miraculous acts but Character conformed to Christ).