Things I've learned while looking for other things

[DeanThomas]

Fred asked that I drop on by and re-post a thread that I started on another forum, thinking that it was something that y'all might want to chew on, too. So, here 'tis.

There was a columnist for the Chicago Times back when I was a young adult, one Sidney J. Harris. He wrote a daily column, but at least once a month, he'd produce a piece under something similar to the above title, always full of interesting tidbits of info, usually meaty, often with political overtones--or at least as much as I could discern that sort of thing then.

While looking for something else, I happened on a recent article by one Sally Morgenthaler, the author of "Worship Evangelism", a book much discussed here over the last 7 years since its publication in 1999. The title and subtitle of the article are very telling: "Worship as Evangelism: Sally Morgenthaler Rethinks Her Own Paradigm". According to her article, she taught her last seminar in 2004, and took her Sacramentis website down in 2006, and has spent a great deal of time rethinking some of her positions on worship as evangelism.

Part of what I found out explains a lot of stuff. Ms. Morgenthaler is a "contributor to 'An Emergent Manifesto of Hope'". Remember discussions early this year about the whole Emergent Church movement? Yup, *that* one. It explains a lot about the book and a lot about the movement, IMO.

Evidently, Ms. Morgenthaler had an encounter with a worship leader that helped her crystalize some concerns that had been looming almost since finishing the book (my interpretation of the time-line, not her words, okay?). It dealt with giving up on doing evangelistic anything because of an "if we build it they will come" attitude. We do cool worship and the folks will stream in. The WL's point was essentially, "Why bother doing anything else?"

She talked about several different types of churches that she visited, but one in particular got my attention. And I quote the article: "Too many times, I came away with an unnamed, uneasy feeling. something was not quite right. The worship felt disconnected from real life. Then there were the services when the pathology my friend talked about came right over the platform and hit me in the face. It was unabashed self-absorption, a worship culture that screamed, 'It's all about us' so loudly that I wondered how any visitor could stand to endure the rest of the hour."

Her question early in the article is do the worship-driven churches really attract the unchurched? And her answer seems to be (as I interpret the 6-page article) that if leadership is honest and does the research, they'll find that they are NOT reaching the unchurched. The example she gave was where leadership claimed 50% of the congregation was unchurched but after a survey discovered that the real number was only 3%!

She continued by saying that by 2002, there were leaders admitting that they were not making a dent in their communities.

This was a very telling article in a lot of respects. Are we as worshippers affecting our congregations? Are we having any significant affect on our communities or neighborhoods? If so how and why? If not, why and how do we fix that?

I want to throw this out to see if it will spark any conversation before I launch into any sort of personal thoughts and observations. Lord knows I have lots of thoughts on these issues. LOTS of thoughts. And many of you who know me have already figured that out, right? 8^)

[The article was found in the May/June 2007 issue of "rev!"]
--
Blessings!

Dean Thomas
KCMO
www.ZionFire.com
www.ZionFireFriends.com
an extravagant worship arts forum

[fmckinnon]

Dean,
thanks so much for posting this .. I would love to find/see the original author. Sally has great respect in the world of "Christian-dom".

I confess, I've never read the book "Worship Evangelism", although I remember it being a buzz and lots of folks reading it. That being said, (hard to critique something you've not read), I seem to recall that the premise was on how "worship" can evangelize - and was taken from the Scripture where it said "if I [Jesus] be lifted up, I will draw all men unto myself". I always felt this was specifically referring to Christ being "lifted up" on the cross - being crucified, and "lifted up" had nothing to do with "praise" or "worship" in the same context.

I've always been leary of basing a book, doctrine, idea, etc., on a scripture taken out of context. As a result, I never really followed that line of thinking.

Then again, I'm not qualified to really critique it because I never read the book.

All that being said, I wonder if this new "revelation" goes against what she may have written/published in the previous book. Interesting to find out.

Maybe Shannon can comment - he's usually very well-read .. and may have heard of this.

[russhutto]

I like to think that worship CAN be evangelistic. Most times, in our church culture though, it's not.

A friend once explained it to me like this: Ancient cultures were very "worship" based. There cultures revolved around the worship of deities and spirits, so much so, that usually the shrines, temples, and places of worship were the center of the populated areas. Specifically, in the cultures of the Near & Middle East, during Biblical times, areas of worship were "high places" - that is places that were usually accessible and visible from all directions because they were built on tall platforms or hills.

More specifically, the Tabernacle and Temple of the Jews, had an open-air outer courtyard in which "worshipers" were free to come and go. As people from many different cultures would come and go into Jerusalem (Temple), they would encounter the "open-air" worship that would be visible (smoke) and probably audible (music, prayers) from any direction.

This didn't necessarily "convert" people to Judaism, but at the least, we can see a difference in the way we worship today behind closed doors, and the way God-followers worshiped out in the open. Technically, they were behind walls as well, but it's the openness of the approach to worship in the "culture" that I'm speaking of.

In our culture, we are not "worship-centric" at all. America is not a God-following nation. We are not a "Christian" nation. And by this I mean by the pervading culture, not necessarily by the fact that there are Christians in America, because there are. Life for us does not center around a trip to the Temple, or to the open-air market, or whatnot. Everything we do as a culture is "isolated" - we are behind closed doors more now then ever. As technology moves forward and "connects" us electronically and over the air waves, we become more and more isolated as individuals.

I think the "build it and they will come" mentality has its place, IF and only IF, it's combined with a BURNING PASSION and availability to GO when GOd says go. I think it's safe to say that although Paul and his crew are famous for being "sent" and going into cultures, there was also a season in which he stayed. Bible scholars say that he spent a great deal of time serving in his local "church" family before he was "sent" to do the missionary/church planting work that we are so familiar with. I think it's something like 14 years.

Anyways, I get a little leary of one-sided approaches to evangelism, church-planting, church family, church community, etc. And for me to totally write off worship as being evangelistic is going to take a water into wine experience.

[DeanThomas]

Ms. Morganthaler is still around, still with some amazing testimony as to what God has done in her life. It just seems that she's "changing her tune" some.

BEO, I agree that worship can be evangelistic. I've seen it happen. If Billy Graham is to be believed, there is a God-shaped void in every man and woman. I can agree with that, too, knowing that He created us for fellowship with Him. There is a natural attraction to spiritual things, so long as those attractors are not clogged by the culture, IMO.

The real point of her article is in counterpoint to her book, saying that we can't just build a church and worship in there and expect people to show up, fall on their faces and come up converted. The so-called five-fold ministry gifts are in place to equip us for ministry; the strong implication is that said ministry is to happen OUT THERE, not in here. Part and only part of that ministry is evangelism. We are all--ALL--"called" to worship, no exceptions. Yes, heathens may well be inspired by our worship, but HEATHENS CANNOT HONESTLY WORSHIP OUR GOD! At least, not initially. Gotta know Him to worship Him. Period. They can go through the motions, but they cannot worship that which they don't know. Not possible. You cannot love what you don't know and love is requisite to worship. In my own paradigm, a heathen can praise Him because anyone can easily see and begin to recognize the Whodoneit aspect of the created things all around as the Holy Spirit begins to woo that heathen's spirit to Himself. Just as I can praise an architect or a composer for a wonderful work, I can't honestly say that I love that person because I only know some single aspect of the WORK of that person and absolutely nothing about the person him/herself.

The Word is pretty specific that this whole thing is revelational, not inspirational. "They'll know you are Christians by the obvious and sincere love you show one to another." [Thomas' Own Overly Amplified Translation] Worship services usually don't show and can't show our love for each other. In fact, most times, there is pitiously LITTLE interaction between the pew-dwellers other than a quick "greet one another" or the passing of the peace. The Word does not talk about sharing surfacey greetings, it talks about agape-- self-sacrificing--love. Watching people sacrifice their public dignity in displays of postures honestly indicating heart-felt worship toward an unseen divinity can be life-changing to one who is already open to receive spiritual impressions, but will that alone actually cause true conversion of mind and spirit? It can, yes, but usually it is only a seed. True evangelism, like true conversion, normally requires relationship with those who are more mature, more learned in the stuff of the Kingdom.

This is a thorny topic. I figure that's part of why our fearless leader asked that it be introduced here. :)
--
Blessings!

Dean Thomas
KCMO
www.ZionFire.com
www.ZionFireFriends.com
an extravagant worship arts forum

[russhutto]

Great points all around, Dean.

After reading your post, and re-reading mine, I'm compelled to point out that maybe the definition of worship we (as a church culture) are using is too narrow. Where the "worship" I'm talking about is a lived-out, "open-air" life-style of worship, the "little c" church tends to compartmentalize worship into either singing, praying, or some sort of gathering/service.

Of course, those are all elements of worship, the definition of worship goes way deeper than that. It might even be totally UNDEFINABLE in human terms...

But, through scripture, many aspects of a worship life have been revealed, as we all know. I think the "experiences" that the writer of the article was wrestling was "worship" in the cultural sense, not in the lifestyle sense. And, although, this conversation can become cliche and run into the ground, the TRUTH is as "churches" we AREN'T training, equipping, encouraging, edifying, the believers to make disciples as we should. I'll admit that. I repent of that constantly, and I continue to raise my voice in the community I'm a part of in a loving, challenging matter, to make sure that we pursue this form of church family life, and not just the status quo.

God's BEST!

[DeanThomas]

...maybe the definition of worship we (as a church culture) are using is too narrow. Where the "worship" I'm talking about is a lived-out, "open-air" life-style of worship, the "little c" church tends to compartmentalize worship into either singing, praying, or some sort of gathering/service.
Yup, I suppose that could be, but I also fear that folks also use way too BROAD a definition.

I often teach about worship and I do tend to define it narrowly. There is a difference between worship and a "worship lived out" lifestyle. There are those who blithely proclaim that "everything I do is worship unto Him". I usually smile, nod, and ask some very pointed questions. Usually the person, if he or she is a thinker, sees that maybe we're talking about two way different things.

First, worship by definition is an action verb, not a noun. It is a verb that requires both action and object. "I worshipped today" is not a valid sentence, frankly, any more than "Wasn't worship great today?" Someone smilingly referred to me as a worship nazi. In many ways, that person was right. I'm very jealous when it comes to that word. Like so many other words in contemporary English, it has taken on connotations that just are not part of the original languages' intentions. And contemporary Christian churches have brutalized it! We've allowed it to become all things to all people and we've not guarded the word or the Word, in this case.

I also like to share that worship is a lot like the word love. I love my wife. When I am work, serving as a customer service rep, I do not think about my wife, but it does not mean that I stopped loving her. In a very obtuse sense, my work is an indication of my love for her in that I am earning the $$ to keep us in house and home, but she is not the direct objective of my work: my customers are. She is usually not even in the furthest reaches of my mind as I concentrate all my efforts on getting things done on behalf of my customers. Then, it's break time. I give her a call on the cell phone and tell her that I love her and that I'm glad to hear her voice. I like to refer to these two, one passive, one active but distant as love and Love. Now, when I get home and my honey is standing there, ready to greet me, I can drop my briefcase and give her my full attention, hugging and kissing her, telling and showing her I love her with my undivided attention and intention. Now we have love, Love, and LOVE.

Similarly, we could look at our worship of our God in similar ways. We do our job and go about our daily tasks. When those tasks are intense, we can honestly say that our last thought of Him is to say, "Lord, please help me with this!" and then we tackle the tasks at hand, giving 100% to the task, AS UNTO the Lord. That phraselet does not mean giving it TO the Lord. Careful construction of the languages show that. Let's be honest, most of us while taking care of bodily functions do not sit or stand and give thanks while doing those sorts of things. Sorry to be graphic, but it conveys a point. NOT ALL ACTIVITIES ARE WORSHIP!!! Worship must be intentional and have a direct, identifiable object. Going merrily on our way, expecting God to be part of our lives even when He's not really part of our thoughts, just is not worship or part of a lifestyle born out of worship. IMO. Understand, I am intentionally narrowing the definition because I feel that this activity IS narrow by HIS definition!! That's the only opinion that matters, yes??

So, as I drive down the road, paying attention to the traffic, the road hazards, the drivers doing silly or dangerous things in the next lane, and singing mindlessly the Christian tunes from the radio or the CD, am I really "worshipping"? I don't think so. My attention is at a minimum divided. In order to truly qualify as worship of One Who we call "Lord", dare we divide our attentions or intentions? If we do are we worshipping or are we driving?? Maybe this could qualify as Worship as opposed to worship, but it surely ain't WORSHIP!!!!! Again, IMO.

And just to grind on a tad more, I tend to be even more specific. Singing worship like songs, talking to others, talking about my intentions or my feelings and talking to myself about my own feelings, just is not worship, no matter how worshipful the music might be. Is a prayer worship? Is a rant worship? Is praying the prayer list worship? Is repentence truly worship? Is evangelism worship? The list is endless. For me, only WORSHIP is WORSHIP and everything else pales in comparison.

And as Fred once said to me, "Won't you tell us what you REALLY think? ;) I guess you now know that. :)

[russhutto]

Great post, again.

One question though:


For me, only WORSHIP is WORSHIP and everything else pales in comparison

So what IS worship? Not trying ti nitpick or anything, but you gave a great analogy for worship, in loving your wife. But that's what worship is like. I just want to hear your definition of worship, so that this conversation can continue on withouth misdirection because of "almost the same" definitions.

Thanks!

[DeanThomas]

What is worship? Good question, and one that is regularly bantied about, and often battered in attempts to make sense of it all.

As a first premise, we can't really use the English definitions very easily because they don't have an anchor in modernity at all. This is not worshipping the ground she walks on, or the swoonings over concert idols. And we don't want to go off into what we think it ought to be. Where then do we go? The only place to go is into the Scriptures and there we end up in some murky and some feel subjective waters.

As a further premise, let's not divide between worship and praise for the moment. That's another whole thread in and of itself. The words and contexts for the two words translated as worship and praise are dramatically different.

Worship occurs in both Old and New Testaments, and in all instances, it is a verb, not a noun. The translation of the primary word translated from the Greek as worship is proskuneo. I am not a Greek or Hebrew scholar and want to quickly identify that. I can only share what has been shared with me and what of that makes sense to me. Both Hebrew and Greek are picture languages, and the pictures associated with the words often goes a long way toward identifying what the intentions were of the writers in the context of their lives in the first century AD.

Proskuneo is translated so many ways and has been associated with many word pictures. Figuring out which is the right one is certainly beyond me. One translation is "to kiss the hand toward", or some say simply "to kiss toward", kind of like blowing kisses. Think Middle Eastern culture and remember that one of the ways one greeted royalty was to bow deeply at the waist and there were various hand movements, one of which was from heart to mouth to head and then toward the royal one. It seems to have echoed a familiar proverb, out of the heart, the mouth speaks. It was an act of expressing love and loyalty to the sovereign, one could say. Another picture is that of bowing one's head to the dust at the feet of the sovereign. The intention there was to say without words, "Here is my neck, O Sovereign. Whether I live or die is at your whim." If you've ever seen any of the old black and white flicks where the arab or indian or any middle eastern flunkie comes charging into the room and hits the floor in front of the head honcho until said honcho allows him to rise, that's very similar to the picture. And the third definition is a bit different from the first and is just "to kiss the hand" and the picture given with that one is that of the silent affection shown as a favored dog might sit at the side of his master, pleased to be in his presence, and shows that pleasure with a bit of a lick to the hand that feeds him, that protects him, that guides and instructs him.

All of those are actions, and all out of deep respect for the object of the action. Some of that respect could be translated as fear of the Lord, a trembling at His greatness and knowing full well that our very breath is at His pleasure.

In what we call the Old Testament, the word worship is always presented as a verb with an object and an intention. The primary pictures associated with this word are two. The more common one is that of bowing down or prostrating oneself before one who is superior, whether deity or royalty. This is exactly where the Roman Caesars got into so much trouble. They forgot that while they were superior, they weren't THAT superior. :) The head in the dust thing, the falling on one's face when confronted by angels or the Captain of the Hosts (usually identified within a Christian context as being Jesus), or your local sovereign, you hit the ground in respect and honor of this superior.

The second primary picture is the picture of Abraham preparing to go up the mountain to sacrifice his 30+ year-old-son, Isaac, the son of the promise (Gen. 22:5). What was Abraham going to do? He was getting ready, in sheer obedience to what we have to believe was God's audible voice, to put a knife in the heart of his beloved son. He was putting aside everything that he was and all that he had hoped for in obedience to God's spoken command. That's worship!

Remember that indictment of the Jews and being stiff-necked? Or the one where they bend the knee to Baal? These are instances where the shachah was again talking about bowing, but they forgot just Who it was that they were to be bending!

What that looks like in our own lives begins to be quite the discussion. Paul tells us in Romans 12:1 that we are to present ourselves as living sacrifices. The NASV indicates that "this is your spiritual service of worship". That word is latreia and is the word that spawned "laity", or the non-ordained folks in the pew, and the definition for that is "the service and worship of God according to the requirements of the Levitical law".

More in part 2 of this answer!

[DeanThomas]

But what does that LOOK like???? It is going to look a lot like being in conversation with Him, in communion with Him beyond the elements of bread and wine that we associate with that word. Moses went into the Holy of holies to commune with Him Who sat between the seraphim, atop the mercy seat. It was there that Moses paid very close attention to God. God spoke to him and he spoke to God. Aaron also went in there and ministered to God in the ways God instructed. We don't have that sort of tabernacle in which to worship. We don't have David's tent in which to worship. We've been told that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Temples are where sacrifices are offered. We offer the fruit of our lips and the fulness of our hearts. I cannot be in a conversation with you if I am not talking to you! Likewise, how can I be in communion--in conversation--with God if I am talking in third party terms???

Worship is an outward act representing an inward response to Who He is and what He has done in us, to us, for us, and even through us. It is an outward display of affection and respect for our Sovereign. It can be bowing, it can be singing, it can be quiet lavishing of love on Him Who saved us and allows us to have our breath and being. It can be sitting quietly in His presence as that dog might lie at his master's feet, pleased to be with him, but not demanding his whole attention like a pest. At times, it could well be exhuberant celebrating of Him or what He has done. All of these, however, are carefully focused on HIM, not on us. For me, that means talking TO Him, not so much ABOUT Him.

Look at David's words in the psalms. We have some of the best examples of communion with God right there. Not all of the psalms are worshipful. Some are thanksgiving with hints of worship. Some are prayers with hints of praise or worship. Some are very specifically instructive, telling others how they should treat or revere God. Those are instructive to me, but they are not focused on God or addressed TO Him, and are therefore, not worship as I understand it.

Yes, I do have a very narrow definition of worship. I also have a very narrow definition of marriage. One Man, one Woman, in their home together. That's marriage. Happy, sad, getting along or not, kids or not, wealthy or not, black, white, brown, yellow, red or some combination thereof or not--none of those define marriage. Good or bad marriage? Nope. Just marriage or not. Very narrow, but with some latitude within the boundary, yes? Same with worship for me, very narrow, but with some latitude within the boundary.

The Jews were criticized for having stiff necks, being unwilling to bow before their God. I pray I never hear that sort of indictment. If my neck is in a cast and can't bend, am I damned? Of course not. We know that God looks on the heart, but we also should recognize that God and God's people look to the outside for indications of what the inside is feeling. My knees are probably older than the rest of my body. Kneeling is sometimes very painful for me. Laying on my face before my Lord is awkward physically, and in our church space is VERY awkward, but I still try to find ways to humble myself before my God and to set an example for others who have eyes to see and a spirit to understand, that it's not lip service for me. They know my knees hurt and that when I am on my knees, it is out of love and respect for my God.

Does that help you hear my heart? It HAS to be about what the Word says, not about how WE think it ought to be. What I've shared here is only a tidbit and only the briefest of looks at what worship should/could look like. If you're raising your hands in surrender, your neck is not stiff. If you're not singing while others are, but your eyes are wet with tears, that says to me "humble heart". If you've truly entered His courts and come with praises and songs and joyful noise, that's obedience. If you're stomping around out of anger at having to do these things, I'll recommend a neck massage! ;)

[El Ben]

...what is worship?

Noooooooooooo!!!!

*brain explodes*

[russhutto]

Haha, Ben. I didn't ask to run the question into the ground, but to see what Dean's definition was, so that our conversation could be grounded.

Dean, see this post here (http://www.theworshipcommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=788&postcount=40)
...which is part of the "What is Worship" Thread. (http://www.theworshipcommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3&page=1)

In my post I laid out the "greek" word picture of a dog kissing it's masters hand (proskuneo). I think our definitions are the same, or very similar at the least.

[El Ben]

I know. I'll tell you what, though, I'm still trying to work up the desire to go back and read his exhaustive definition. I'm not there yet, but I'm hoping to get there before week's end. No offense about the brain exploding thing, btw.

[fmckinnon]

Hey Ya'll -

Guess what - Pastor David (SSCC) is staring a new 4-weeks series "Wired for Worship" ... and this coming week is part of the "what is worship", including John 4: 23-24 (one of my personal "anchor" scriptures), proskuneo, etc.

[C Hutcheson]

I feel ya, bro'. Complications arising from the simplest of things.

Hey, those fanatical terrorists think they know what worships is - blowing themselves up and a bunch of innocents in the name of their god. I guess, in the technical and wordy sense, that what they do is considered "worship" to their god, therefore requiring definition. BUT, ain't you glad that ain't our definition of worship!

Wait, did we ever finalize our definition?

Aww, jeesh, now my head is also going to explode...

:eek:

[DeanThomas]

Wait, did we ever finalize our definition?
Probably not. My bad. And defining "our" definition is going to be tricky. I find that the definition of worship is a matter of revelation, sometimes a matter of degrees as it were.

FOR ME (!!!!!), "to worship" is a verb, indicating a visible, outward activity, usually done in response to an inward and invisible work. It is an active expression of adoration and exultation to our God, not just merely ABOUT Him. To exult means to rejoice in something (or Someone), to be exuberant about something (or Someone) and its (His) affect on you. It might include exAltation, too, but I am using exUltation here with intention.

Worship is not a spectator activity. King David did not watch others dance before the Lord. HE DAVID danced for and to the Lord with all his might. He did not merely dance BEFORE the Lord, the dancing and worshipping was UNTO his God, an outward activity, responding to the grace that had been extended to him on so many occasions when death was what David deserved.

Does that help? Sorry to have taken so long to answer this. No excuses, just an apology. :o

[worshiptrench]

The way to fight the narcissistic worship is to very intentionally mobilize your laity using their vocations (latin= voca, voice or calling). We push this so rabidly at NorthWood that we quit sending our mailers to a certain wealthy area nearby because the people were so self-absorbed that we didn't have the jumbo indoor playsets and 1000 gallon fishtanks for their kids, that they wouldn't come back.

Our children's ministry pastors just met with the most prominent church in that area's children's ministry pastors (well known for their worship services and CD's) and found out they paid every childcare worker they had until very recently. That, my friends, will destroy discipleship and merely reinforces a very bad culture.

Can I make a book recommendation along this line....Glocalization: How Followers of Jesus are Engaging the Flat Earth by Bob Roberts. Really fleshes out this serving by mobilizing strategy in unique ways.