Forcing or Leading?

[fmckinnon]

Hey Ya'll -

I've got a question to pose ... how would you define the difference between "forcing someone" to do something, and "leading someone" to do something.

For example, in our church ... I often like to demonstrate "clapping" on an upbeat, energetic song by clapping my hands over my head ... this indicates to the congregation that they can (and yeah, I guess in my heart, I'm thinking "should") clap if they want .. and also helps visually "see" where to clap.

Recently, it was mentioned that by doing this, some people could feel "forced" to clap, even if they don't feel comfortable doing so.

At SSCC, we're always trying to be sensitive to the boundaries between expressing ourselves in praise and worship while at the same time, keeping a "foyer environment" where newcomers or visitors can feel welcome and don't feel "forced" or "obligated" to have to respond to God in a certain, pre-subscribed way.

One of our Elders made a good point. I commented that it was hard to know the difference between LEADING a congregation, showing them where to clap (and at the same time, indicating that "it's OK!) and forcing (which wouldn't be my heart, or most any leader that I know). His response was that "it's neat when the Spirit leads people to just begin standing up and clapping and engaging w/o them having to be told to do so".

That was a great response - I've seen that happen - it happened in our 9:30 yesterday during the "walk-in" song ... people were excited and just started standing, singing, and clapping .. I didn't direct it from the "stage" at all .. it just happened.

So, as worship leaders ... how do you reconcile the two. It's easy to think you're leading, but to almost "force" a response on the people. At the same time, part of leadership is taking people - leading them, guiding them - sometimes, even to places they aren't sure they are able to go. (or even desiring!)

Can't wait for your responses.

For the Kingdom,
Fred

[SaintLewis]

From experience, and common sense, it's very rare that people will feel comfortable going someplace that their 'leadership' doesn't lead them. Yes, that spontaneous expression will occasionally erupt, but that's definitely the exception, rather than the rule. Should we also cease to 'exhort' people to LIVE the Christian life, rather than just teach what it looks like and hope that it 'erupts' without the actual challenge? Yeah - it's a little silly as an analogy, but I think it gets to the point. Sometimes we need to challenge people to move beyond their comfort zone - and I think many people find that rewarding, and enjoy being challenged. Staleness may be comfortable for a while, but is it rewarding in the long-term? Anyway - my thoughts...take'em or leave'em.
;-)

[russhutto]

Also, maybe brief "sermonettes" on different "praise/worship" topics could be helpful. By this I mean, just quickly in one or two sentences explaining WHY we clap, or lift our hands, or what not. ESPECIALLY if you do keep a foyer environment. What may seem like common knowledge to all in attendance may be taken for granted and not "shared" with newcomers.

I know that when I lead, I'll occasionally share those 60 second little nuggets and people seem to respond well to them.

A lot of times we just assume that everyone knows to clap or sing or whatnot. But if people come from a different tradition, or have not really ever particiapte in corporate worship, they might not understand what's going on.

PLUS...What I've experienced, is that there's a lot of "church" people who couldn't tell you why we clap or sing a new song or kneel or lift hands, beyond some explanation like, "because it's in the Bible...?"

I think the key here is to recognize that it is ok for worship leaders to not only lead in worship "songs" but to also teach worship (during the times of worship).

Disclaimer: I don't mean that between every song, or at every gathering we should try and teach some deep, profound philosophy on worship...Just everynow and then as the Spirit leads.

[fmckinnon]

Hey ya'll,

Thanks for your feedback here, I really appreciate it!

[El Ben]

I think it all depends on the atmosphere you're trying to create. Are you trying to create an atmosphere where everyone's clapping, being vocal, maybe (God help us) dancing around a little bit? I think the best way to do that is to model it. I think more often than not, we give ourselves huge headaches over why people don't listen to us as worship leaders when we tell them to "clap your hands!" or to "sing it out!"

Something I've been learning lately is that, given the right amount of time, people naturally gravitate to and emulate leaders. There's the practical aspects of needing to teach people what worship is all about, sure, but most of us learn better by example. I'm guessing that if you model yourself to be a leader that people can trust, that you prove yourself to be a godly man or woman worthy of respect, and that you are passionate about what you do and who you are, people will catch on. Leadership is contagious.

For instance, I'm leading worship now at a young adults ministry in addition to my responsibilities on Sundays. Now, keep in mind, I come from a pentecostal/charismatic background where if someone played one note on any given instrument, you stood up, prepared to clap your hands. My first night leading worship at this gathering of young island culture adults, I was a little taken aback. They all sat there, arms crossed, staring at me blankly. It felt like that dream where you're at high school in your underwear all over again.

I settled it in my mind to just lead by example, so all I ever asked them to do is to stand up when we start worship. It's been a couple of months now, and these guys aren't jumping up and down or anything, but there's a marked difference. I think you just have to teach people why we do what we do and give them time to respond to your leadership. Boy, I hope this doesn't come across as ADD as it seems at first glance.

[russhutto]

I've also found that word pictures along with physical example are nice.

[El Ben]

Can I get an example?

[russhutto]

Well, I don't have any off the top of my head, but mostly things that happend during the week, or in life, that kind of "convey" the attributes of God.

I guess this doesn't necessarily fall under the "how to" worship category, but more along the lines of painting pictures of God's relationship with us. Or the way He works, or loves us, etc.

Sometimes even using the greek/hebrews pictures of praise & worship is good to "frame" a worship set. Especially as you move into a more intimate time. Just inserting a quick personal experience or a "word painting" about the expression of worship.

I'm thinking of the idea of "praise" as being lifted hands, as a child reaching out to its parents. It's not profound, it's something we all relate to because we've seen it at least once in our lives, hopefully more, unless one lives under a rock. I don't know I guess just using everyday life to make our worship environments less mysterious, and more accessible to people.

Not to take away from the supernatural side of things, though. I hope I'm making sense. I'm rambling a bit.

[russhutto]

P.S. The "praise" picture I referred to with the child, is not the only one, just meant the one I was using as a pseudo-example.

[chipshot0701]

I have struggled with this issue for MONTHS. As the rhythm guitar player in our group I can't seem to find any places during the music that I feel that I could just stop playing and start clapping. Now don't get me wrong here.....
I feel like clapping in most all our songs and have re-written a few just to allow ME the chance to do just that! Such as "Come Now Is The Time To Worship" we decided to add a complete verse with only percussion and clapping. BUT there are other times during the music we play during services that I just feel like I should be clapping and having a good ole time yet I'm stuck with the guitar and pick in my fingers.
Keep in mind We are a Lutheran church that is as conservative as they come. So clapping and standing DON"T HAPPEN very often, so if I do clap most everyone thinks I'm a dork and sit with arms crossed and stare straight ahead and frown. lol
Any way,,,,I've decided to clap when I feel led to do it, stand when I feel led to, smile when I feel ledto and laugh when I feel led to and if the congregation doesn't like the way I do things then they can go the the Saturday Night 5:30 service or the 8:30 Sunday service instead of the 11:00 PRAISE SERVICE and sit with arms folded and frown for an HOUR!

thanks for the soap box
mike

"I don't go to Church and worship God to be better then you! I go to Church and worship God to better then me!" anon...

[hstucky]

I believe our primary reponsibility as worship leaders is to model a worshipper. If we feel clapping at a certain point would be worshipful, we need to feel free to clap, not as planned coreography, but our heartfelt expression of worship. Consequently our congregations will learn that it is OK for them to do the same when they sence this need or want to follow our example. I don't believe we shouold clap, just to be clapping. Our expressions of worship have to be natural and come from the heart of the moment. Not everyone will worship identically. Freedom to express ones worship is of primary importance for our people to personally become worshippers

[chipshot0701]

I believe our primary reponsibility as worship leaders is to model a worshipper. If we feel clapping at a certain point would be worshipful, we need to feel free to clap, not as planned coreography, but our heartfelt expression of worship. Consequently our congregations will learn that it is OK for them to do the same when they sence this need or want to follow our example. I don't believe we shouold clap, just to be clapping. Our expressions of worship have to be natural and come from the heart of the moment. Not everyone will worship identically. Freedom to express ones worship is of primary importance for our people to personally become worshippers

I agree but I want to make the point that by adding planned choreography in a certain song is OK. By doin that the congregation knows that there will be some clapping going on today! Because we clap every time we play that particular number! So yes. planned is okay...
However. I agree that it is more beautiful and wonderful if it is spontaneous.

[Surrendered2Him]

Let me give you my 2 cents:

- My Background: Raised in a somehow charismatic church environment down in South America. (get the groove?)

- My first exposure: After I moved to USA, and after a few months without car and not being able to move-through town by myself, I found a church that seemed to have the kind of worship I wanted. I visited very early on a Sunday morning, the musicians were playing and the bit caught my heart. I came back a few hours later to the Sunday service, a couple of thousand people were sitting and the band started playing. i got up, closed my eyes, raised my hands (that was it, no jumping or anything like that) and started to let my emotions to take me to the place where I longed to be in a worship corporate setting. A few seconds later, all of the sudden, my friend touched my arm and when I opened my eyes, here there was everybody sitting with a "what-are-you-doing?" face, looking at me. I was frustrated; we left the place. I could not understand how one, living in such a blessed and prosperous country and having been bought with Jesus’ blood, could stay sitting like a statue on a char staring at a band as they sung "Lord a give you my heart..."

- My journey. I visited many churches. I joined one largely known for its focus in worship. However, I was hungry for food, spiritual food, music and arts were not filling my heart. (no wonder!). I visited a church that had an amazing simple, but profound focus in studying the word of God and the Word of God alone. The worship, well, let me just say that my first thought was: “no way, my grandpa has more energy!!”. However, it was then when God showed me that His desire to feed me and for me to know Him was more important than my desire for “good worship”
I decided to stay and God has taught me about worship (Not music but my life as a sacrifice) more that I have ever learnt in my entire life. Later on, we got a new worship leader who is a heartfelt seeker of God’s heart…( and “cool worship leader” and musician too). Little by little, the congregation has developed a freedom to express what we sing, and what before was rare (somebody getting up in the middle of a song with raised hands) now is pretty much part of every Sunday’s ministry time.

- My conclusion:
Be yourself. God called us to lead people into His presence, not to sell our local church (I know some leaders may somehow disagree with me). Do and be who God made you to be. Charismatic, contemporary, traditional: and the people who are in line with your style will stay, the ones who are not, well, they will leave to another place…(or another option, your pastor might fire you.. )

Teach the word. Yeah, I know, some say that’s not our “job” primarily. However, I believe it’s our duty to teach the biblical principles of worship expression. Many of us have been raised in church or have heard the Word for years. We often forget that many people don’t know some of the concept we hold as “basics”. I was surprised when a brother showed himself surprised that the Bible specifically talks about raising our hands and kneeling down and so forth. Some may even think that the Bible teaches to scream and yield like crazy because one feels like doing so. Of course that Bible doesn’t teach that. However it is by the study and sharing the Word that we grow and do things in the right way.
It may even be very useful to talk to the Sr. pastor and have you, from time to time, to teach to the whole congregation on Sunday morning about worship. I think it is part of your job as worship leader/pastor. Our worship leader had the chance to do that and it was amazing how the worship attitude changed in the congregation after that.

I think it’s more than telling people what to do in a Sunday morning or Bible study. It is a longer process that deals not with external expressions alone but with the internal work that the Word of God does in our hearts, and as we are being transformed, and as we understand God’s love and grace and mercy, the external expressions will flow freely.

I dream with the day that people will shout and raise their hands sincerely with the same passion they do at the ballgame.

Luis V.
myspace.com/surrendered2him

[fmckinnon]

Luis -
Thanks so much for your reply - wow .. it's amazing. I added you as a "friend" on my MySpace .. hope you accept it.

Just curious - your MySpace said you were in Atlanta now .. what church did you eventually end up at in ATL - we've got tons of friends in ATL, and know several churches up there.

[Surrendered2Him]

You've been accepted my friend. I ended up at Calvary Chapel Stone Mountain. (http://www.calvarychapelstonemountain.com/). It's actually in the Snellville/Lilburn area, northeast of Atlanta.

[fmckinnon]

Hey -
Don't know the church, but have relatives in Stone Mtn, and we frequent the park there 1-2 times per year!

[garyhodges]

Hey

Two effective ways of encouraging (programming?) clapping, raising of hands, etc...

I feel that it's important if you have a worship team with people who only sing (we usually call it the front line) to utilize them as worship leaders and not just singers. I have found it very effective to have them be our "clap" leaders and "raised hands" leaders. This is especially true if you're singing "We stand and lift up our hands..." or "Clap your hands all ye people..." It has always been very strange to me to be in a worship service singing these or similar songs and have nobody on the worship team doing what they are singing about!

The other thing and what I consider a vital aspect of leading worship is giving the congregation a scriptural understanding of what we're doing. It's all about the revelation to which they can respond. So if you want them to understand why we lift our hands or clap -- read it to them straignt from the Word.

That said - I'm NOT one for preaching during worship. I can't stand that and I think it totally distracts people attention from where it should be - on God.

So there.

G

[fmckinnon]

Hey Gary!

Welcome ... glad you are here .. you're in Ireland, right? Thanks for your input ... I think that's exactly what we're trying to do ... and I agree completely.

[El Ben]

Luis said something so completely amazing that I'd like to echo it. He said:

"...be yourself."

Isn't it amazing how, in worship, we (I include myself here) are sometimes, well, a lot of times influenced by others around us to the point of changing how we worship or the intensity of our worship in order to more easilly fit in the picture? It's easy to jump around and go nuts when everyone else is doing it, but what if no one's doing anything? Now, I'm not saying that jumping around and going nuts is indicative of true worship, but if we really believe, I mean REALLY believed what we said we believed about Jesus, would we not be motivated to respond to him in a way that somehow befits his majesty?

I'm in danger of hobbyhorsing or soapboxing or whatever you want to call it, but let's just be real for a second: while the depth of our worship can't be judged by our appearance, our appearance is certainly a pretty good indicator of the intensity with which we worship. Come on, we're a vocal, expressive species (in general) and we're pretty much vocal and expressive about everything else. Is it so wrong to be vocal and expressive when it comes to loving Jesus? I'm not saying we have to require it of anyone at all, but what I am saying is that I think it should be reflex to want to celebrate what God has done for us.

Now, granted, everyone has their own thing, but come on, when do we get to the place where we step outside of how we like to think and how we like to do things and just take a moment like David took when he said "Bless the Lord, Oh my soul, and all that is within me." David COMMANDED himself to worship. He spoke to his own soul and told it to get up off its lazy butt (my translation :) ) and bless the Lord. The fact is, we as worship leaders shouldn't HAVE to "force" or "lead." It should be a natural response, and the sooner we teach people that, I think the sooner we'll see a change.

There...removing myself from the soapbox.

[fmckinnon]

Ben,
I think your post was summed up best in the LAST couple of lines ...
"and the sooner we teach people that ...."

I'm grateful Pastor David @ our church is doing "Wired for Worship" - today he covered all various words for praise and worship, and what they looked like "physically", etc ... it was great teaching, and I think people are starting to see that they can reflect themselves physically.

[russhutto]

I keep coming back to the "purpose" of our gatherings in the first place.

1) As "leaders" we are to train and equip our "saints" to build the Body of Christ. (Eph. 4)
2) We are to encourage one another. (Heb. 10.25)

1) Equipping/Training: This happens in several ways.

We model by example.
We "teach" from scripture
We use other methods/stories to communicate scriptural truths


2) Encourage: Each translation I visited uses the word encourage. It's a great word. KJV uses the word exhort. I think God has given us many different avenues to take when it comes to "leading" our people into worship response. But the key factor in all of them is "encouraging" them.

How many times have we as leaders gotten frustrated when our people didn't respond in a way that we thought, at the time, was appropriate?

How many times have we tried to really exhort, and I mean exhort with a heavy hand, our people into worship?

How many times have we wrapped our emotional response up in our people's "level" of participation in worship actions?

I'm guilty.

But I keep coming back to encourage. If I keep leaving our worship gatherings discouraged, my focus is probably in the wrong place. Without totally, abandoning my call to serve others as a leader, I still have to, as Ben mentioned, kick my "soul" into gear sometimes. There are times, when as a leader, I'd be better off WORSHIPING, instead of trying to "lead" worship. By just being a visible example of worship I'm being more of a leader than by trying to make things happen.

There are, however, other times when I need to pause and share what God is revealing in the moment. The awesome thing about creating atmospheres where we can be free and bold in our heart response to God, is that there HAS to be different degrees of response. If we all looked the same, something would be wrong.

The point of Eph 4.12, is that we are constantly growing. But not growing just for the sake of growth, but so that the Body is built up. So that we're not a "boat" full of immature followers tossed this way and that. But, it's just the nature of the beast, that we'll always HAVE babies in our midst. IF not, we're dead and useless. We must be always teaching. It's kind of like the ....(cue african tribal music)... circle of life. As Believers, we should have mature, growing, and baby followers in our gatherings. If that's the case, we'll always be teaching different degrees of Scriptural revelation.

It sounds circular, but it should be. Those who are growing and maturing, should be taught to be teaching those who are "younger" than them. So, in theory we should be teaching teachers. We should be growing growers. And maturing maturers.

How does this relate to worship leading? Maybe directly. There should never be a time when you feel like your "worship" response corporately has arrived. We should always feel the need to "teach" worship. Sounds funny, but I believe it's true.

[El Ben]

John Maxwell calls this the law of explosive growth in The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership (a GREAT read). When we as leaders raise up other leaders, we don't grow by addition, we grow by multiplication.

In just looking at the topic, though, I'm beginning to ask myself: Aren't there times when leading and forcing might be the same thing?

Isn't it sometimes necessary to take a heavy-handed approach? I'm thinking one of the most basic aspects of leadership is discipline.

*bracing myself* >.<

[russhutto]

Sure thing. But I think what I'm referring to is not necessarily in the same category as "discipline" - i.e., body building/encouraging, on a corporate level usually doesn't include discipline, in the "heavy-handed" sense.

In my understanding, discipline is to take place on a much smaller scale, as in 2 or 3 people involved. The only way see discipline being involved in a "worship" atmosphere is BEING disciplined as leaders, not disciplining others. For example, setting a good example to always be on time, to make every effort to "press in", to worship with abandon, and above all to have a teachable, humble spirit. (not being punished by some other leader :) )

I'm not referring to leader/team dynamics, but worship gathering dynamics. So to answer your question, it might be necessary to "push" through stuff at times to enter into periods of freedom, and whatnot, but actually "leading" the people, IMO, shouldn't ever resort to "pushing" people where they are not ready to go.

There is a difference from my perspective. Pushing people or pushing through, are not necessarily the same thing.

That being said, sometimes people DO need to be pushed, but I would guess that it's probably more of the exception than the rule.

[El Ben]

Thanks for clarifying. I was just wondering, because I'm still working that one out for myself. Good points all around.

[russhutto]

Here's a great lesson in leading...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p6P52q0JrY

Pride comes before the fall.

[Surrendered2Him]

I thought this relates to the discussion.

(From my blog: http://blog.myspace.com/surrendered2him)

“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him”
John 4:23

Sample test No.1
As I walk through Peachtree Street Atlanta downtown, I stop a random young guy and ask him to express gratitude towards me; I explain that I am a good person, a good husband and that I help the poor. I ask him to express what he thinks about me. That simple. His reaction: He would probably think that I am crazy. And walk away. If I’m lucky, he may say that I am a good person and even a decent good looking guy… (just for the sake of argument!!)

Sample test No.2
I go down a few blocks and, right in front of the Fox Theatre, I after telling him the same facts about me, I ask a professional actor to express what he thinks about me and to communicate to the passer-by’s how great I am for, let’s say $100.
He is a good actor, he may do a better job about showing emotions about me.

Sample test No.3
Finally, I drive down a few miles and go to a low-income neighborhood where I meet a jobless single mom who is about to loose her house because she doesn’t have money to pay the rent. She can barely make her ends mean to feed her three kids whose father has been out of the picture for years. Not that all these is enough bad news, she is about to face a judge and a sentence for a charge shoplifting at the local grocery store.
I take her with me, go to the bank and pay her full mortgage. Furthermore, I open an account for her and give her a black American Express (limitless credit) for all her expenses and needs going forward. Also, I hire the best attorney in Atlanta to plea her case with the judge and, after committing to fully pay and restitute what she stole with interests –out of my pocket, and after agreeing that I be sent to jail for a time in her place, she is release clear of all charges.
After all these, I ask her to express gratitude towards me and to show to the world what she thinks of me. What do you think she would do?

Case-study notes
The word “worship” comes from “worth-ship”. It is ascribing value to something. It is only until we understand and experience who God is, what he is done for us that we truly understand and appreciate the value of who He is and what He’s done and therefore we express it freely and accurately. True worship happens only when we understand that He paid ALL of our debt, when we understand what He freed us from and not only that, when we understand the riches, blessings and His righteousness that have been credited to our spiritual account going forward.

As someone noted, lifting hands or shouting does not necessarily imply that we are worshiping in spirit and in true. However, we and our congregations will experience and express (in spirit) that kind of worship that the father is seeking as we get to know Him –through His word (in truth), more and more and the power of His resurrection.

As the song goes:

“If we could see how much You're worth
Your power, Your might
Your endless love
Then surely we would never cease
to praise...”

[MarkSooy]

We must approach these situations with balance in mind, and with Pastoral hearts. The worship leading position is pastoral by nature (which is why worship leaders must be theologically trained!! Another topic for another day...). Look at Colossians 3:16 and you'll see the pastoral responsibility of the worship leader.

So we must balance allowing people to be comforted in their communal experience of worship, while at the same time helping them grow. This must be grounded in a full understanding of our congregations and how they need to grow, as well as understanding the theological basis for our teaching (through worship).

This has more to do with teaching people how to think, from which they will then respond.

[fmckinnon]

This must be grounded in a full understanding of our congregations and how they need to grow, as well as understanding the theological basis for our teaching (through worship).

This has more to do with teaching people how to think, from which they will then respond.

Mark -
Thanks so much for that insight - you hit the nail on the head ... in this case, I'm still learning our congregation, and this discussion took place in an eval meeting w/ myself, the Pastor, and one of the founding elders ... all who have a passion for Christ and for seeing others come to know Him. Plus, they know the history, makeup/DNA of this congregation, too.

As a highlight, my pastor did a 4-week series on worship (well, week 4 is tomorrow morning) after that!

God bless,
Fred

[BillyChia]

Surrendered2him,
Nice analogy. I dropped you a comment on your myspace.

[BillyChia]

How many of you raise your hands over your head on a fast song and clap your hands on all 4 downbeats emo/indie rock style?
Super cheesy, but tons of fun.

[russhutto]

We do. But I'm pretty sure that goes well back into the 80s punk movement...maybe.