Pastor mediated music...

[manasotakey41]

Well here goes...criticism of a pastor, but it's bugged me for the last two weeks...be kind please.

Our praise team thought, that since much time is taken up in church with cantatas and children's programs thus eliminating many "traditional" Christmas songs...we would come in 15 min before the service and sing them as the congregation came in. Asking them to join us or make suggestions. Wanted to start the first Sunday of December.

Our praise team leader mentioned this to the pastor and he asked that we NOT sing Christmas songs until Christmas and then two weeks after (ELCA Lutheran). He pointed out that there needs to be a spiritual anticipation (Advent) and singing these songs prematurely would spoil the enjoyment of celebrating Christmas. Mmmmm...

Never in my 57 years have I experienced that approach to Christmas, but I'm open to comments.

[milepost13]

I don't know much about advent...

I think what he meant to say was, "it would spoil Christmas for me".

Nate

[lytesource]

I totally understand your Pastor's perspective although in our culture I think that without instruction the flock will not understand. Since not everyone comes from the old world culture that birthed it, without instruction there is a gap that should be filled.

Here's why I understand your Pastor's perspective:
I was raised in a traditional German Lutheran home and every christmas we didn't see any christmas decorations or hear any christmas songs (in the home) until christmas eve with the exception of Advent Wreaths and Calendars and exterior Christmas lights on the eves of the house. Then on Christmas Eve all us kids were ushered into a back room after the Big Dinner to wait for the Christmas Child (baby Jesus) to bring Christmas to our home. After an hour or two we'd hear a bell tinkling and we knew Christmas had come at last and Christ the Messiah had visited our home. (no Saint Nick in our home)

Scrambling down the hall hoping to catch a glimpse of Jesus, we'd hear traditional German Christmas hymns coming from the living room and a glow of lights as we'd turn the corner to see The Tree all lit up with candles, yep real candles (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Juletræet.jpg/250px-Juletræet.jpg), and presents under the tree and decorations around the room.

We would celebrate christmas until Epiphany on the 6th of Jan., recognizing the visit of the wise men, when all the decorations and the tree would come down.

This tradition emphasized the waiting for the birth of Christ just as in Biblical times when the whole world especially the Jews waited for the coming Messiah. Today, more and more, with the exception of some wonderful traditions, the Christmas season is extended for commercial purposes. And, Christmas songs tend to lose their impact.

All that to say that there is probably a deeper reason behind your pastor's purpose. Ask him to share it with you and pray about some way you can minister it to the flock. This may help with getting the purpose out to the people and bring a very special roll in your ministry's influence on how the people worship their Savior this Christmas.

And, just incase any of you were wondering, we still follow these tradtions and have real candles on our tree and light them up too, but don't tell the fire marshall. :o

[Klampert]

The reality of advent is the coming of the king so really the only songs you technically shouldnt sing are carols or praise that speak of him already being here. an example of an ok carol is o come o come emanuel.

[Jay Tea]

I've been lurking for a few weeks now, and finally really wanted to respond to something, so...Hi!

I LOVE this approach to Advent, but I agree that the church as a whole has lost a lot of the reasons for it, and if your praise team doesn't understand it, the rest of the congregation probably won't either, and could benefit from some level of explanation. I've actually been pushing gently for this at my church for a couple years, with little success.

I'll try to be semi-brief and not ramble too much, but the gist of it is this: the church year can be a really nice tool to teach the life of Christ and help us live in his likeness. Ideally, it's not something we do because we always have, or because we expect some mystical effect to happen in our lives--it's a tool that's been passed down through the ages of church history that we can use.

I love that Advent emphasizes waiting. It runs so counter-culture to (at least) American society today, and is an important part of life in Christ--God often doesn't work on our timetable, right? Waiting to sing Christmas songs isn't some sort of gimmick--it's just a symbol of waiting for Christ. It's a lot like waiting for Christmas presents. The anticipation is part of the goodness.

I love that Advent expresses the paradox in which the church lives. On the one hand, Christ has come, we have forgiveness of sins, and we have confidence in his work. On the other hand, it's not too hard to figure out that he's not finished--with us or with the world--and that continues to be painful.

I love that Advent embraces the reality of a suffering world. Advent is why we need Christmas. In Advent we stand with the exiled Jews waiting for the Messiah for hundreds of years. We see the groaning and frustration of a broken world, and we continue to wait for the fullness of his kingdom. Apparently a few years back, my church didn't sing any Christmas songs until Christmas, and people in the congregation got frustrated and upsed. The pastor and future worship directors took this as a cue that that was a bad idea (though we don't do a whole lot of Christmas music before Christmas). My take (and this is where I tend to lose a lot of people) is that it's OK for people to be frustrated and upset--maybe it's even appropriate for Advent. That's what happens when you're stuck waiting for a Savior--you get upset.

I love that the difference between Advent and Christmas provides contrast, which can offer depth. Doesn't the contrast between winter and spring make spring that much greater? Or the contrast between the delicateness of the middle of Jars of Clay's "Oh, My God" and the intensity of the end? Or the contrast between Lent and Easter--wouldn't you feel a little silly singing, "Christ the Lord is Risen Today," or "See What a Morning," on, oh, Good Friday? There are some neat parallels between Advent-Christmas-Epiphany and Lent-Easter-Pentecost. Obviously, if you don't celebrate any of those, then that doesn't really matter to you, but there it is.

I love that Advent doesn't allow Walmart to plan our church services ;) Just because the mall plays sappy Christmas music doesn't mean we need to.

I love that Advent lends itself to minor key songs. Woohoo!

I love that marking the church calendar is a way to connect us with saints that have gone before. Singing hymns from the last couple hundred years can have similar value, but once you get before 1700 or so, it's pretty hard to do that.

So, I think there's a lot to love about Advent celebrated in a different way than the "Christmas-lite" that a lot of churches do. But, again, it's a tool. It's certainly not dictated by the Bible. And congregations may need to be prepped (or explained afterward) for it to have any value.

My apologies for utterly failing to be even semi-brief. :)

[El Ben]

Okay, two things:

1.) I've never been a part of a liturgical church, so I'm utterly lost as to the tradition to all of this stuff.

2.) You don't have to agree with what your pastor said to do, but you do have to honor his leadership. Here's a truth that I've come to live by: "People of character always let time prove them right." I say this, not because I think you need to hear it, but because it bears being reminded every so often.

If you think you're right, then as a person of honor, let time prove you right.

A question I'd ask myself also, is "just how much did my pastor interfere?" He asked you to wait a couple of weeks before doing some songs, not to go drink poisoned kool-aid. I hardly think this situation constitutes as "pastor-mediated music."

[twc_admin]

Hey Gang ...

You know, I'm sitting here just overwhelmed with thanksgiving. I don't want to ramble on and on, but reading this thread is a classic example of what I'd envisioned when launching TheWorshipCommunity.Com. To be able to come, vent (respectfully, always), ask counsel, and receive it - from mutliple people, denominations, geographic locations, cultures, and backgrounds. Praise God!

OK - that being said .. I have to agree with everyone else - especially on two points:
1 - honor the leadership of your pastor.
2 - encourage the pastor and overseers to teach/communicate this truth to your Body, so that they understand. LACK OF UNDERSTANDING and VISION will KILL that church. If they are just frustrated because "the Grand Poo-Bah" executed his authority and said "no Christmas Carols", they will be frustrated, confused, and resentful. I hope your leadership will educate the people in your Body as to why this is happening.

Now, as much as I love decking the halls the whole month of Dec, I must confess that this viewpoint intrigues me, and I think it could be very powerful and meaningful. Just hearing the story that "lytesource" shared makes me think, "wow - what a heritage" ... and it makes me think that in cases like that, I'd nearly find myself anticipating Christmas day, rather than looking forward to it all being over. (sad).

Fred

[manasotakey41]

...I understand, lytesource.

I too was raised in a second generation German household (platte deutch) with pretty much the same tradition. We did decorate but only two weeks prior to Christmas day. And also no Santa (but I have a neat poem about Santa...St Nick).

We have asked that he explain this to the congregation and he said he will next Sunday. I think the "old world" will then clash with the "modern world" at that time. Already, the kids cantata is full of Christmas songs and will be presented Dec 9th. It's a bit schizo if you ask me.

As for the songs...have you ever tried to find praise songs with an Advent theme? There seem to be very few with any familiarity.

Thank you very much for your insite.

FredZ

[manasotakey41]

...I also appreciate your thoughts as well. The comparison with Lent/Easter was great and insightful.

It's amazing that we already know all these things in our hearts, but get carried away with the fiscal/commercial world around us (Walmart had Christmas decorations out BEFORE Halloween!).

America is a "McDonald's society"...wanting it now and not waiting. Anticipation is a wonderful feeling albeit sometimes frustrating as you pointed out.

Thank you again!

FredZ

[lytesource]

Hey FredZ,
Before I give my 2 cents on this one, let me just say that I realize I'm only getting a part of the whole. Therefore, my responses may not be completely applicable. I hope to be an encouragement to you so, your forgiveness in advance please, if I'm way off here ... Anyways, here goes.

We have asked that he explain this to the congregation and he said he will next Sunday. I think the "old world" will then clash with the "modern world" at that time. Already, the kids cantata is full of Christmas songs and will be presented Dec 9th. It's a bit schizo if you ask me.


Am I right in thinking that you are having a hard time with this because you feel there is a contradiction in your pastors actions? If so, it may not be a contradiction in his thinking because he sees the whole picture. Perhaps he desires a blending of the "old" and the "modern". It is also intirely possible that he desires to spare the congregation the agony of repetitiveness, since they will hear christmas carols everywhere they go between Thanksgiving and New Years. And we all know that repetitiveness dulls the senses causing one to miss out on the impact of the presentation.

Trying to understand someone else's thinking can really be hard sometimes. I know, I've been married nearly 30 years and I still need my husband to explain his ideas several times before I get the whole picture. People process thoughts differently and our reactions are different based on where our thinking is at the time.

Often times it's our reaction to change that can set the mood for the rest of the folks. Your pastor says, "I don't want you to sing christmas carols this year," you can react or respond. There's a difference between reacting and responding. If you react then everyone else will react with you. If you respond you have the people responding with you. This is where your leadership is proven. Worshipleaders have the responsibility of being an example and of leading the people, not only in 'worship' but also in following their pastor and his vision for the church. I realize you are venting, but, be careful not to let the venting spill out over the flock. It's a bit schizo if you ask me. ...is a pretty strong statement. And frankly, not very respectful. (sorry,.. but true) Again I know you are venting here and might not say this in front of your church flock but, be careful... you have put this up on the www for all to see. So, what is your true response here? Not venting, just true response?

As for the songs...have you ever tried to find praise songs with an Advent theme? There seem to be very few with any familiarity.

Acutally, this is a real good challenge for all of us. Time to start writing some new songs...


For what it's worth...

[chipshot0701]

Our praise team worked up a rocked out version of Silent Night and Joy to the World and we wanted to use them on the 23rd. Our Pastor caught word of it and asked us to wait to do Silent Night until Dec 30th. We are also an ELCA Lutheran. Our praise team was caught off guard by this too. Our Pastor is a very very busy man and I'm sure if he had the extra time to spend he would have explained his reasoning to us.
But thanks to my new found friends on The Worship Community.com I have the explaination and I have forwarded this thread to the team so that they can read all of your responses on this matter.

peace n out!
Mike

[manasotakey41]

Hey FredZ,
Before I give my 2 cents on this one, let me just say that I realize I'm only getting a part of the whole. Therefore, my responses may not be completely applicable. I hope to be an encouragement to you so, your forgiveness in advance please, if I'm way off here ... Anyways, here goes.


I accept ALL thoughts and responses. May not necessarily agree with them, though :)


Am I right in thinking that you are having a hard time with this because you feel there is a contradiction in your pastors actions?


Absolutely. But his brief explanation to the praise team had merit and was accepted on faith.


If so, it may not be a contradiction in his thinking because he sees the whole picture. Perhaps he desires a blending of the "old" and the "modern". It is also intirely possible that he desires to spare the congregation the agony of repetitiveness, since they will hear christmas carols everywhere they go between Thanksgiving and New Years. And we all know that repetitiveness dulls the senses causing one to miss out on the impact of the presentation.


I guess we'll have to wait until Sunday to find out. He has been very quiet about the whole thing and only let the praise team know because we came up with idea of singing Christmas hymns before the services. No one knows exactly what he's thinking because there has been no explanation. Perhaps your possibilities are right on, but we won't exactly know until Sunday.


I realize you are venting, but, be careful not to let the venting spill out over the flock.


No worry there. Only the praise team is aware of this and we're a tight-mouthed group. In fact, nothing at all has been discussed amounst us since he informed us of his thoughts.


(schizo)...is a pretty strong statement. And frankly, not very respectful. (sorry,.. but true) Again I know you are venting here and might not say this in front of your church flock but, be careful... you have put this up on the www for all to see. So, what is your true response here? Not venting, just true response?


The strength in this statement lies in the fact that everything else...cantatas, kids choir, special music, Christmas trees (without real candles)...all continue as planned. BEFORE CHRISTMAS DAY.

The WWW has very little idea of who I am and the chances of anyone in our congregation knowing, even the praise team is slim to naught.

I believe we might be delving a little too deep into this matter with consideration to my original post and I am guilty in being pulled into the psychological aspect of this discussion with my reply to your original post. I would like to keep this discussion on the surface with replies relating to my original post and I, in turn will try my best to keep my responses centered there as well.

Thanks again lytesource.

[lytesource]

I totally understand... I'll be praying for you...

blessings and joy to you~!

[fretguy]

I really wanted to formulate a good response to this. I went through a similar situation.

Submitting to the authority of the church is manditory. What the pastor says goes. God gave that pastor that flock for a reason and that has to be honored.

I don't agree with that treatment of advent - even though it sounds very poetic and romantic. I agree with Lytesource that it doesn't sound like this is leadership - since no leading is taking place. The congregation may not understand what is going on and how then can the be led to a place of anticipation?

During advent I want to ignite a desire in the congregation to dig deeper and know God more intimately. This is a great time of year to ask 'do I love God more than I love myself?' Unfortunately, all too frequently I must say I don't - or I at least don't act like it. How can you do this by NOT singing the music of the season? By NOT singing the music that asks that question?

Finally, the music of Christmas is more God focused than what is typically sung the rest of the year (It's all about Me, Jesus, all for me). A friend told me this week that this is the season of 'You' songs, not the 'I, me, my' songs in church.

Disagree with the pastor - privately and respectfully - and use this as a platform for exploration of the relationship.

[worshiptrench]

By the 26th, I am tired of Christmas music (but not Christ nor the incarnation mind you). Our local radio stations start beating you down with it Nov 1. So I doubt there is much anticipation fueled by delaying Christmas music for them if your area is anywhere like ours. (Our home owners association thru up the wreaths on the entrances on Oct 28....yikes).

I would submit to him, but that doesn't mean you can't talk to him about it behind closed doors. We have occassional knock down drag outs with our exec staff behind closed doors, but when we emerge we are all on the same page. I have often said or heard, "Well, I want you to know I don't agree with this decision but no one beyond these doors will know that I don't agree with it."

[manasotakey41]

...to keep you updated. Nothing at all was mentioned at either of the two morning worship services about not singing Christmas hymns. The Kids Program and Senior Choir Cantata went along as usual at 2 pm...still no mention of his ideas. :(

Thank you all for your thoughts, ideas, and prayers. Praise team sings on Dec 23rd with a selection of Advent songs from our praise songbook. I think there are six of them and I know one...O Come Emmanuel.

January will be the Christmas songs before the early service on the fourth Sunday...as usual.

[El Ben]

I have often said or heard, "Well, I want you to know I don't agree with this decision but no one beyond these doors will know that I don't agree with it."

What a leadership culture to be a part of, wow! That's an absolutely amazing thing to be able to say.

[El Ben]

We'd love to have an "intro" post from you in that section. By the way, welcome!

[El Ben]

Um....uh...sure.

Okay, I'm not sure what kind of background you come from, Joseph, but we've got all types here. That was very eloquent, but not really clear. For the sake of those (including me) who aren't super-versed in what you're talking about, could you boil that down a little. I'm still not sure what you said. Sorry :)

[El Ben]

Oh, all right. That makes much more sense. Thanks for the remix, and I'm inclined to agree with you. Hiccups in unity can cause friction between pastor and staff, but ultimately, there is a structure to authority for a reason. We all know what happens when you get too many cooks in the kitchen. There is a definite necessity for someone to be able to make the ultimate "yes" or "no" calls in ministry, heck, even in life.

Of course, it stinks when leadership makes calls different from what we would make, but that's the nature of working with people. Different people feel differently about different things. Boy, I just said different a whole lot, :D. Anywho, unity is great and all that, but we do need to recognize that each and every one of us have different personalities that give our decisions different "flavors." You and I, for instance, Jospeh, could make the same judgement call on a particular item, but because we have different personalities, we would choose to execute that judgement call differently.

In an environment of multiple leaders (a staff-led church), this can cause some friction. What really impresses me with a leadership culture or dynamic, is when this friction is accepted and re-harnassed into something creative. This, of course, requires secure leaders at the very top of the leadership pyramid, but utilized correctly, you get some pretty amazing results.

[carguy1]

Ok, either I missed something or El Ben has taken to talking to himself........

[El Ben]

Apparently, there've been some deleted posts. It does look rather strange, doesn't it?

[manasotakey41]

[COLOR="Blue"]Still no explanation as to the no-Christmas-songs policy until Christmas. However, Christmas Eve full of them, especially the 7 pm service. Christmas day service consisted of three songs in the "Christmastide" section of the hymnal. Two I had NEVER heard before. The sermon was good though :)

He did ask the praise team to sing Christmas songs before every 8:30 service throughout January. However, I'll be taking a 2 wk hiatus to Florida then. My guitar callouses will be peeling off by then!

[worshiptrench]

He did ask the praise team to sing Christmas songs before every 8:30 service throughout January

That is just crazy to me. Even a formal lectionary doesn't run the text like that (Anglican doesn't at least as far as I know).

[Jay Tea]

That is just crazy to me. Even a formal lectionary doesn't run the text like that (Anglican doesn't at least as far as I know).

That's what I was thinking. Most calendars will give Christmas two weeks, tops, depending on where January 6 falls.

Did you get the feel that not singing Christmas songs was a problem for your congregation? That they were confused or perturbed? Or did they just not seem to care too much either way?

[Joseph]

No ! I`m truly sorry. I deleted some posts. I guess a explanation is in Order. Lately, its been very difficult for me due to some overwhelming medical conditions that have turned my life upside down. I`ve been a little sensitive to feedback from others as well as negative in my thinking towards some Posts that I write that seem to Stir up controversy. this is my first blog site, So immediately I write something that might give people the impression that I`m not a stupid Man, and that there is actually some greater importance to " Me" that might be considered acceptable to others. A definite Confidence problem. I know. Actually I`m a loner. I`m trying something different in relating some of my experiences with others as well as hoping to pick up a few tips so as to further the ministry of praise and Worship that I`m currently involved with. My medical condition is called Adrenomyleneuropathy which in laymens terms is a Brain Dymelinating Disease that attacks the Mylin Sheath that protects the Brain and Brain stem. Some symptoms that I`ve been fighting with, is short term Memory loss. So its a little difficult when your playing " Here I am Worship" and some where through the song you forget where you are and the riffs that your playing. Anyways El Ben has been very patient with me and I appreciate His tolernace and kind words. Thanks

Joseph.

[El Ben]

Wow, that condition sounds very serious, Joseph. I'll definitely pray for you. Still, I think we'd all love to hear your point of view. Sometimes, all it takes is someone relaying a thought in a way we've never thought about to stir us up into thinking different for ourselves. Charge on!

[Joseph]

My view most of the time sounds very eloquent to people as well as complicated. How I would love it that there was an amazing amount of unity in our Churches here in Ontario, Canada. But I gotta be honest. Especially here in Orillia Ontario and surrounding areas, the Spiritual Battles that are fought here are many, and many have either fallen by the way side and are now trampled on, or they are just walking away from the church. Personally speaking I`ve many times found myself distancing my association from many of these new churches that are springing up all over the place.( Small little home groups and or groups that have been sent out to change the beliefs of Christians.) The reason? I`m a little unsure about. I know that I`m hearing The Voice of The Father concerning many of these troublesome trials. But I`m a little reluctant concerning them due to these medical conditions and the fear of saying something that might not be the right time to say, or saying it wrong. As well, is it my responsibility or place to speak about them?

What do you think I should Do??

United with you in Jesus........... Joseph.

[Psalmist]

Hi Joseph.

Pray without ceasing!

We are, without doubt, living in the last days. I believe Christ will return if not with this generation, then the next. That being said, there will be churches that pop up, prophets that spring up and preachers that rise up who will proclaim to preach the Word of God and bring unity to THE CHURCH, when in actuality, all they do is serve themselves and glorify their own name. So what do we do?

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is unity! We continue to preach Jesus and we continue to show His love towards all mankind! Some of us will be called to radically stand against those who speak in the name of the Lord, but do not bring Him glory. Others will be called to stand by continuing to live as examples. "Be still and know I am God."

I have friends who are members of "churches" who don't follow a biblical example of unity. As a matter of fact, they will readily tell me and others that we are going to hell and that their church is the only one going to Heaven because that's what God has revealed to them. I'm not speaking about a total denomination of folks. I mean 300 members in a congregation are the only ones going to Heaven and God is going to split the earth and swallow up the rest of us! Ridiculous, huh?

My response to them...continue to love them. 1 John 2:5-6 (paraphrased) If you say you are in Christ, you must walk as He did. My words can do more harm than good if they are only my words. When God gives a word to share, I share it. No one can argue with His Word! Other than that, I just try to live as light. There are times to act and times to let God move. But He'll let you know when to do what.

No matter what you do, pray first and seek His guidance. Remember, too, that God hurts for those who are blinded by their own ignorance. He doesn't desire for any of us to NOT see the Truth.

Finally, I pray that God works supernaturally in your situation. He is a God bigger than your illness. It didn't catch Him off guard and He is not unaware. He is God.

[Joseph]

Agreed!!! What you are saying is So True! God Is Tri-une and There can Be Know Life outside of His life. And Yes!He was aware of This Illness in me before it even had Life or a name. ( Psalm 139) As well, there will never be a day that He is not aware of or that He didnt Ordain, Again Psalm 139:16. Should we speak out against these people that we are speaking about? or is all this happening for the Fullfilment of His Word? Like, Should the Light that is within us be exposing these issue`s so as to strip away the Authority from which these issue`s are being ignited and executed in the Land? or is The Light in our Lives there to reveal the Truth that gives evidence to the Existance of Jesus and that He is The way. The Truth. and the Life. In the Churches in the area that I am living in, Many people are claiming that they are the only People who Hear God. And many are following them. Now, my life is Grounded in The Foundations of the Word From which my life finds a reason for submitting to the Authority of Jesus. But Honestly speaking. When I was a Blind man ignorant of Jesus and all His Ways, It was easy to claim innocence for my lifes issue`s because I believed then, 23 years ago,that Ignorance was bliss. But Now that my Life is consumed with Jesus and All His Ways as defined in His Word, I find responsibility and accountability actively working in the depths of my being. So as living as Members of One Body, is it our resposibility to restore these individuals to a stonger manifestation of The Holy Spirit, so as to bring The Body into one unified voice and action.Iserve His People in Praise & Worship in Our home Church Faithfully. But is my service interpreted as Faith and Deeds working together so as bring His poeple to a greater understanding of Him, or is it just used as an instrument that He uses to Bring His People to a Higher Plateau So He can Minister and fellowship with Them?
So I come to this Realization. I cant set people free. Only His Word can. But nevertheless you are Right. HE IS GOD. He always was God and always Will be God. and His Sovereignty and Kingdom was established long before the earth and its Creation ever existed. I guess His Sovereignty is not dependant upon whether man believes it or not.

Interesting Queries. But maybe foolish Babblings
might befit these Words. I am a Man. and until He fully Redeems me, I will remain as a Man.

United with You in Jesus.

Joseph