Modesty Issues

[FreedbyJC]

How do you deal with this in your church?

Last week we had three praise Team Modesty complaints from various members of the congregation.

A skirt that was too short X2 [two different vocalists]
A shirt too short [midriff showed when she raised her hands]


Not knowing about these, after our 'convesation' in another thread about practices and performance-I had posted to the Praise Team our 'understandings' about that subject. As the spirit moved me, at the last second, I added a post I picked up a few years ago from Sovereign Grace Ministries' web site....

MODESTY HEART CHECK

"Do not cause anyone to stumble." ~1 Corinthians 10:32

“…Women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.” ~1 Timothy 2:9-10

Start with a Heart Check…
“How does a lead worshipper discern the sometimes fine line between proper dress and dressing to be the center of attention? The answer starts in the intent of the heart. A lead worshipper should examine their motives and goals for the way he/she dresses. Is her intent to show the grace and beauty of womanhood? Is his intent to show of his power and strength? Is it to reveal a humble heart devoted to worshipping God? Or is it to call attention to themselves and flaunt her beauty or his manly physique? Or worse, to attempt to sexually allure and to unknowingly be used as by Satan to distract those weaker brothers and sisters struggling with lust?

A lead worshipper who focuses on worshipping God will consider carefully how he/she is dressed, because his/her heart will dictate his/her wardrobe and appearance.” John MacArthur [emphasis added]

What statement do my clothes make about my heart?
In choosing what clothes to wear today, whose attention do I desire and whose approval do I crave? Am I seeking to please God or impress others?
Is what I wear consistent with biblical values of modesty, self-control and respectable apparel, or does my dress reveal an inordinate identification and fascination with sinful cultural values?
Who am I trying to identify with through my dress? Is the Word of God my standard or is the latest fashion?
Have I asked other godly individuals to evaluate my wardrobe?
Does my clothing reveal an allegiance to the gospel or is there any contradiction between my profession of faith and my practice of godliness?

If you're married, discuss your wardrobe with your spouse. If not, try your parent or an older sibling of the opposite sex.
Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live… train the younger women to … be self-controlled and pure … so that no one will malign the word of God Titus 2:3-5

LADIES: Before you leave the house, do a modesty check. (What are some things you should look for as you stand in front of your mirror?)

From the top…
When I am wearing a loose-fitting blouse or scoop-neck, can I see anything when I lean over? If so, I need to remember to place my hand against my neckline when I bend down.
If I am wearing a button-down top, I need to turn sideways and move around to see if there are any gaping holes that expose my chest. If there are, I’ve got to grab the sewing box and pin between the buttons.
The same check is needed if I am wearing a sleeveless shirt.
When I move around, can I see my bra? If I do, I need the pins again.
Am I wearing a spaghetti-strap, halter, or sheer blouse? Not even pins will fix this problem! Most guys find these a hindrance in their struggle with lust. It’s time to go back to the closet.
Can I see the lace or seam of my bra through my shirt? In this case, seamless bras are a better option.
More key questions: Does my shirt reveal any part of my cleavage? Does my midriff show when I raise my hands above my head? Is my shirt just plain too tight? If the answer to any one of these questions is yes, then I need to change my outfit.

Moving on down…
Does my midriff (or underwear) show when I bend over or lift my hands? If so, is it because my skirt or my pants are too low? Either my shirt needs to be longer or I need to find a skirt or pants that sit higher.
I also have to turn around to see if what I’m wearing is too tight around my back side, or if the outline of my underwear shows. Also if I’m wearing white does my underwear show through? If so, I know what I have to do!
And as for shorts – I can’t just check them standing up. I need to see how much they reveal when I sit down. If I see too much leg, I need a longer pair.
The “sit-down” check applies to my skirt or dress as well. And I must remember to keep my skirt pulled down and my knees together when I’m seated.
And speaking of skirts, watch out for those slits! Does it reveal too much when I walk? Pins are also helpful here.
Before I leave, I need to give my skirt a sunlight check. Is it see-through? If so, I need a slip.
Finally, I must remember to do this modesty check with my shoes on. High-heels make my dress or skirt appear shorter.
And don’t forget – this applies to formal wear as well.
A note on swimwear: It’s not easy but you can still strive to be modest at the pool or beach. Look for one-piece bathing suits that aren’t cut high on the leg and don’t have low necklines.

Guys … Before you leave the house, do a modesty check. (What are some things you should look for as you stand in front of your mirror?)

Does my abdomen (or underwear) show when I bend over or lift my hands? If so, is it because my shorts or my pants are too low? Either way, my shirt needs to be tucked-in or get a longer one.
I also have to turn around to see if what I’m wearing is too tight around my waist, thighs or back side, or if the outline of my underwear shows. If so, I know what I have to do!
When I am wearing a loose-fitting V-neck or polo shirt, am I showing any chest hair at the neckline? Then I need to use those buttons to corral them!
And as for shorts – I can’t just check them standing up. I need to see how much they reveal when I sit down. If I see too much leg, I need a longer pair.
If I am wearing a button-down shirt, are the buttons strained? If there are, I’ve got to grab another shirt.

Adapted from:
• Modesty Heart Check: © 2002 Sovereign Grace Ministries by Carolyn Mahaney, Nicole Whitacre, Kristin Chesemore, Janelle Bradshaw
• Modesty Check Republished in Girl Talk: Mother-Daughter Conversations on Biblical Womanhood by Carolyn Mahaney and Nicole Whitacre (Crossway Books)
• A Decent Proposal: Dannah Gresh, the author of And the Bride Wore White: Seven Secrets to Sexual Purity and Secret Keepers: The Delicate Power of Modesty (both Moody Press). Article from Today's Christian Woman. May/June 2003, Vol. 25, No. 3, Page 46 Copyright © 2003 by the author or Christianity Today International/Today's Christian Woman magazine.

More resources at: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16217&forum=34&10

Now I am a prophet... gifted with forsight to some and a doomsayer to others who think that it's not an issue that we need to deal with.


Your thoughts? Do you have "modesty" covenants with your team?

[russhutto]

We don't have "modesty covenants" with our team. Instead we just have a simple common sense dress code. A lot of people that we "minister" to through our services are extremely desensitized to what "we" who have grown up in church consider to be "racy" or "sexy" or even immodest. That's NOT to say that cancels out the need to be modest.

We try and approach individuals who tend to dress a little more "edgy" with loving suggestions about what people in the "line of sight" should and shouldn't wear. We've even had situations where (pardon my bluntness here) a woman with a larger chest was asked not to wear some styles of shirt that others were able to wear because of the difference of "fit". On others, there was no inappropriate redirection of the eyes. But on her, you couldn't help but be drawn to her torso.

We've approached this from a more "practical" standpoint, I would say, then a purely spiritual approach. Not that it isn't necessary to re-emphasize the spiritual aspect of modesty as well. We do occasionally.

But we do feel like that if we "lord" over our teams with contracts and dress code police-like behavior it really has a tendancy to offend people. I think a more individual approach, laced with love and common sense, gets the same results, and creates a more partnership-minded ministry as opposed to a "worship leader/that person in the 3rd pew who is always looking for ways to criticize" versus the "worship team" ministry.

I hope that makes sense. I'm not advocating getting rid of modesty or not listening to wisdom from the church family, but a lot of times, we're so quick to point out what we think is wrong about someone's appearance, that we stab them right to their core without caring a minute about their spiritual health.

I've seen it so many times. Personally, I think strict dress codes are overboard. You know, like guys have to wear slacks and shirts and ties, or nice shirts every sunday or whatever. Let people be themselves (within reason!).

Soapbox mode disengaged. Haha.

[worshiptrench]

And men, no Mr T starter kits...leave your gold medallions and lizard print pants in the closet until disco night. thanks.

this isn't exactly a modesty issue but it is a courtesy issue. EASY on the cologne and perfumes when you are in close proximity to others on stage....

[dtpuga]

I'm with you Blindeyes...

In the 5 years when I was a youth pastor we had to revisit that issue more times than I would have liked. However I always found that it was easier to deal with it on and individual & common sense basis in lieu of going with the dress code direction. Everybody is made different and different things fit different on diferent people.

I found that when we told them the issue was not to be distracting or revealing it was easier for them to handle and adjust to. The first couple of times we were more straight forward with don't wear this do wear that, and it got us nowhere due to the aforementioned reasons of God making everyone fit into clothes diferently.

On a lighter note, I do recall an issue when one of our staffmembers 90-something year old parent told her that he could see our guitarists "privates" when he was sitting and playing. (Probably b/c right now, our front row is about 2 feet fromt the stage.) THAT was a fun phone call for our administrator to make. Needless to say that guy now says he wheres long pants every week and at least two pair of boxers. HaHaHa.

Travis

[FreedbyJC]

Awesome ...thats were we want to go also guys ...one on one 'common sense' approach but it sometimes never makes any sense as to what some people will wear and sometimes it all too 'common' :eek:

Some teams have uniforms and color charts :confused: but that is not what we have in mind...After the week we had we wanted to get everyone thinking about what is the 'right thing to do' in the area of dressing to fit the position.

The Covenant will probably never happen but the heart check will be shared with all so that we can readily identify a problem and personally address it with the individual; before it becomes and issue.

OK. Next question [more comments welcomed-FRED? ST L? what do you guys do?] ... as they do happen ...if one of the guys sees a wardrobe faux pas or even a malfunction with one of the ladies :o Does he take it directly to her or ask another lady to address it and save face ... funny-or not so- story later....

[russhutto]

If something is brought to my attention by another male, I'll usually relay it to one of our female staff members who will lovingly approach the matter from a "fashion" standpoint first. If the person approached doesn't "get it" then they bring up the modestty issue. Again, it depends on who the individual is and what the "offense" is.

Most if not all of our team members go through our starting point discipleship process so stuff like this usually isn't a big issue. But occasionally something will slip by, i.e. the situation I mentioned earlier. The outfit wasn't revealing at all, yet when the female in question, began to "praise" with movement, it became very distracting as she "moved" before the Lord...haha. Probably not to many women, but to one specific guy, and probably many others, who weren't trying to be distracted, but just couldn't avoid it. We don't want to tell our leaders not to "move" but they do have to be careful in that as well.

[SaintLewis]

OK. Next question [more comments welcomed-FRED? ST L? what do you guys do?] ... as they do happen ...if one of the guys sees a wardrobe faux pas or even a malfunction with one of the ladies :o Does he take it directly to her or ask another lady to address it and save face ... funny-or not so- story later....

Working primarily with Youth (who naturally seem to dress in 'less'), I've found it much more effective to find a woman leader to talk to any women who seem to be walking very close to, or overstepping the 'modesty' line. I did otherwise - once - a long while back...outcome wasn't the best...so that's from experience.

[dtpuga]

I have a former YP buddy who used to address the issue rather bluntly, and with suprising results. He and his leadership team would simply see a 'questionably dressed' kid and say, "hey, is that for sale?" When they said no he said, then don't advertise it here. Amazingly enough, not one kid responded with saying that it IS for sale.

A bit of a forward approach, but you know your people, haha. Do what works. If it becomes an issue in an environment where 'dressed up' doesn't matter, keep a few T-shirts with your youth or church logo on hand and throw it on the guilty party.

tp

[thetentguy]

I like what a guy said in a comment on The Modesty survey " If you don't want to attract dogs, don't dress like a sirloin."

There is another dimension to this issue as well; and that having to do with the word Worship. It means in part to "gaze upon, to look to give full attention". The enemy would like nothing better than to divert our attention away from God's worship through accidential visuals that stir our fallen natures. I'm thinking that's why many worship oriented musicians have an extra battle in the areas of sexual temptation... As minstrels in the King's courts our whole identity flows out of being a doorway for others to enter into God's presence and when we are in some way clouded or there's a screen on that doorway, other's praise is hindered. It's not just an issue of some poor soul in the congregation lusting, though that is serious as well, it's about the very nature of praise and whether or not we as musicians up on "the stage" are leading other's in the right direction (that is, in God's direction!)

[El Ben]

We don't have "modesty covenants" with our team. Instead we just have a simple common sense dress code...

The only problem with that is that it begins with the assumption that the majority of your people have common sense, which could be dangerous. ;) I wish that I were only joking here, but I'm not. I'm not talking necessarilly about the church that I'm at right now, but I've been some places that seemed to attract people who were absolutely oblivious to the way things were.

I was listening to an audio clip from a leadership meeting with Dr. Sam Chand, an incredible Christian leader. In this clip, a pastor asked Dr. Chand:

"Why is it that so many of my people fail to live up to my expectations?"

Dr. Chand paused for a moment and replied:

"Perhaps because your expecations have never been vocalized. Your propblem probably isn't that your people don't live up to your expecations, it's just that they have no clue what they are."


You know what they say about assuming, right? A hard lesson I'm having to learn in my first year of being on staff at a church is to NEVER assume anything. That's the first random thought that came to my mind.

[russhutto]

I agree, Ben. What I mean by common sense dress code and not a covenant is the way we approach it. First, the people who are part of our team have gone through our 1st Discipleship class, which covers the basics of our church, ministry, and what it means to be a follower of Jesus. This INCLUDES things like behavior, dress, attitude, etc. for serving in the church.

We don't necessarily make it some sort of contractual agreement that people have to sign off on (which is not necessarily a bad thing) but we just allow people to use the wisdom/common sense they've gleaned in their learning journey.

More times than not we have fashion faux pas, as opposed to modesty no no's.

Make sense?

[FreedbyJC]

MOST EXCELLENT point!

Again we cannot know whats wrong until we know [and are told] whats right ... and wrong!

Its working wonderfully! After posting the Modesty Heart Check we've had some laughs about our personal faux pas...several even identified themselves as example of what not to wear. The big thing is communication is happening!

OH...OK ...the rest of the story... at one point we had team members who had ongoing and seemingly endless 'wardrobe/fastener' malfunctions :eek: and there was a code to me [the designated 'teller' -the elder :cool: ] from the observing party so I could address it. My surreptitious code to the poor guy/gal was simply "Job 5:27"...s/he always got the point after the first explanation and was always grateful for the backup.:o




OK- to keep BibleGateway from crashing :eek: ....Job 5:27 "We have examined this, and it is true. So hear it and apply it to yourself."

Hey, It worked!

[Elizabeth]

We have one woman with a large chest who insists on wearing revealing tops. People have tried to make kind comments to her, but it falls on deaf ears. :(

The one thing that was addressed successfully was the skirt length issue. Our platform is a good 3 feet off the floor, so one must be careful with skirts (and shorts). We had an older lady who was very overweight who ended up wearing a short skirt for our patriotic service. It was after that that our Minister of Music asked the pastor's wife (who is also in our choir) to give a little "talk" to the ladies. I also put something in the music newsletter with a cute graphic. (Well, there was the version I actually sent out and the version I sent to the MoM and his wife as a joke. In the one that went out, I found a horrified looking guy. In the joke version, I chose a slightly different expression.... :D)


Elizabeth