Monitors... are they really this tricky?

[cindinj]

Being a keys player with no technical understanding or experience, I'm at a loss regarding monitors. We usually have 3 guitars plus 1 bass (OK, so 4, lol), drums, me and 4 vocalists on the platform. I'm playing a Triton. I share my monitor with 2 of the guitars and it seems like we're always feeling like the other is too loud and we can't hear ourselves. Last week I truly could NOT hear myself and then I just want to cry and go sit down. I'm just not talented enough to contribute when I can't hear myself. Is this a common problem? Is our audio team just too inexperienced or is this really as tricky as it seems? They are all volunteers except the head of Production who seems to just step aside and let the volunteers run the show.

?

Cindi

[milepost13]

Here's a quick fix: pick up a hotspot. it's basically a small personal monitor that won't add much to your stage noise and will give you some control to what you hear.

As far as long term...your techs need to figure out a way to send different mixes to your individual monitors. Or, you need to go in-ears.

Nate

[cindinj]

Thanks! I'll look into it. Yes, stage noise in general is a problem, too. 4 guitars all on amps becomes crazy -- and our drummer is directly behind me (off to the right a bit) and as we say "out of the plexiglass" again. We're struggling with what to do with him, too. He can't hear a thing in there but we can't hear a thing when he's out - lol!

Thanks, again!

Cindi

[milepost13]

Thanks! I'll look into it. Yes, stage noise in general is a problem, too. 4 guitars all on amps becomes crazy -- and our drummer is directly behind me (off to the right a bit) and as we say "out of the plexiglass" again. We're struggling with what to do with him, too. He can't hear a thing in there but we can't hear a thing when he's out - lol!


OK...you've got lots more problems than what I mentioned before. Unless your stage is huge...

Nate

[garyhodges]

...(less than a hotspot) is to get a Rolls PM50s headphone monitor amp. It lets you mix the monitor send from the board with your instrument (or mic). The beauty of this piece is that it takes a speaker level input, so you can chain it right from a floor monitor. Pair it with earbuds and you're set!

My wife used this for several years at our old church where she was our pianist and loved it.

Rolls also makes another box that simply takes the monitor speaker level in and outputs to headphone level. Our DRUMMER used one "in the plexiglas" with much success.

[dtpuga]

Monitors don't have to be that tricky. Try a few things. First, EQ them. Rent an RTA and make sure that your monitors are as flat as you can get them response wise. Sometimes it helps to take lows out of them as well if you have a bass amp on stage anyway. A good EQ on your monitors can help make things punch through and it is often overlooked.

A hotspot will help you only if it is in a separate mix from the other monitors. If you chain it to the existing mix you are complaining about you will simply amplify the same problem. That really is the best solution though, separate monitor mixes. You can do that multiple ways... separate floor wedges, in-ears, the headphone adaptation someone else mentioned here or with some other method I didn't mention.

That being said, the easiest fix happens to also be also the cheapest. We have two keyboardists play on some Sunday mornings and occasionally they are located where they have to share one of our 4 monitor mixes. When they do share mixes, one, if not both of them will plug ear buds/headphones into the headphone out of the keyboard and listen in one ear. It is definitely not the 'professional' solution but it has worked for us for a couple of years. They get the monitor mix and room in the open ear and just their keys in the other, works pretty good. Give that a try, put the ear bud in the ear towards the loud stuff if you can and help yourself out there too.

Hope this helps! Either way, let us know what does.

-Travis

[amprodirect]

Cindi,

This is a common issue particularly when you have limited number of monitor mixes. Usually (read 99.9% of the time) any given musician will want/(need?) to hear themselves louder than anyone else. Please do not suggest that the tech guys can not do their job. My guess is that as soon as the mix is right for one it is wrong for the others. Use some of the suggestions given by these other contributors and be sure to work with the tech group to find a solution. I am confident they are every bit as interested in it as you are.

[Stevie Nature]

amprodirect is absolutely right. Most musicians (and vocalists in my experience) want a "little more" of themselves in the monitors. Divas, the whole lot of 'em. :D The issue usually isn't the sound guys. Everyone thinks they need more of themselves and if you're not able to drop the money on a new monitor system or don't have the ability to run multiple mixes from your board the real key is compromise. Understand that the mix won't be perfect for everyone. If everyone can hear themselves it probably means that the mix isn't perfect for anyone. You basically just want to be able to hear enough of yourself to make sure you're not off. Remember that it's not about any one person. It's ultimately about honoring God and secondly about the congregation as a whole.

As far as some practical steps, our keyboard player brings her own amp so she can hear herself over the mix.

[russhutto]

Good post Stevie,

I would second the use of a personal monitoring system such as an AMP or a set of headphones.

[Stevie Nature]

Yeah, you could go old school ghetto fabulous with the head phones and have one side on, one side off.

[russhutto]

You have to wear a track suit, gold chain, and adidas shoes though...

[Stevie Nature]

Word...........

[chipshot0701]

...(less than a hotspot) is to get a Rolls PM50s headphone monitor amp. It lets you mix the monitor send from the board with your instrument (or mic). The beauty of this piece is that it takes a speaker level input, so you can chain it right from a floor monitor. Pair it with earbuds and you're set!

My wife used this for several years at our old church where she was our pianist and loved it.

Rolls also makes another box that simply takes the monitor speaker level in and outputs to headphone level. Our DRUMMER used one "in the plexiglas" with much success.

I need to look into the Rolls thing. Any idea who sells it?
mike

[worshiptrench]

Almost sure Musicians Friend or Guitar Sinner I mean Center. The Rolls do NOT have a limiter built in if I remember correctly so BE CAREFUL if you don't trust your engineers. Any feedback could be piercing.

[stephen_can_man]

The easiest solution is to get a keyboard amp, or, put all the guitars in amps and take the guitars completely out of the monitors. BTW, don't be afraid to speak up and look for solutions, as in most situations nothing will get done if you don't take some initiative. Good luck!

[cindinj]

I appreciate the encouragement to speak up -- that is a problem with me and I'm really asking God to help me more (don't just grumble, DO something!). I also didn't mean to sound like I'm blaming the sound guys. I band does tend to indicate they aren't very qualified but I've been there, too, and perhaps some of these ideas will help.

Most of the guitars have amps AND monitors now, making the platform sound pretty LOUD. Do I understand the suggestion that just amps might do?

Cindi

[garyhodges]

Sounds to me like it's time to rebuild the mix onstage. Every now and then you just gotta do it. I know that you (cindi) probably aren't in a position to make such a suggestion to the sound guys, but maybe you could go to your worship leader with some thoughts "you've" had (wink) about improving your monitor situation.

The other issue at hand when the stage volume gets out of control is that you can never get a decent house mix. The sound coming from the platform will destroy even the best house mix.

My technique would be to begin at zero with everything and allow each instrumentalist to bring their amp levels up to the minimum that they can work with. Have the band play without singers and make any adjustments neccessary to make everyone happy. Then add the voices to the mix, once again bringing them up to the minimum that is needed. Some creative work with the EQ will help separate the instruments sonically so that there is more distinction and clarity -- both in the monitors and the house.

Anybody that doesn't have a good attitude through this process -- slap 'em.

[stephen_can_man]

Did you get your problem resolved? I was going to say that the volume from a guitar amp or keyboard amp is plenty enough volume for someone to hear themself on stage. Sometimes musicians want to face their amps at the crowd, rather than themselves because they don't trust that the sound person is putting them in the mix. This is not a good idea because it makes it impossible to get a good monitor mix and it changes the overall mix, which makes getting a good sound difficult. If this is your situation that sucks, but, maybe reassuring the musicians that they are being heard would help convince them to turn the amp around...maybe.

[cindinj]

We're actually in much worse shape right now. We blew out our sound board, for lack of a more technical term. We're borrowing a much small (less functional) one and we spent most of practice last night trying to get the mix right. Something crazy is going on with the keys. I started out with no volume at all -- the lead noticed he couldn't hear me and asked them to fix it. Once they did, I ended up with no space in my volume pedal. I'm going from 0 to 60 in a fraction of an inch. This is going to be wildly painful on Sunday because we're doing some songs that really require volume control on the keys (O Praise Him, for example).

I know, more than you wanted to know... but thanks for asking :) Once we get back on board with our board we'll work on it some more. We're going to two keyboards for the 12/24 service and that completely terrifies me as far as sound on the platform. This concept of some sort of personal in-ear monitoring (in one ear only) is very appealing to me...