Lessons Learned: a few lessons gleaned this past year from conferences/concerts prt 1

[SaintLewis]

I've been processing from the last few Christian worship 'concerts'/events I've been to.

Now, I've seen a lot of bands live in my lifetime – upwards of 3,500 (I worked as a guitar tech and merch guy at music festivals for 7 years in a row, and used to study in college at a concert venue – and I just like live music): as a result of that, and my age, it's not really incredible musicianship that impresses me – it's creativity, great songs, and the ability to move people – to change hearts – to realign people's passions. I go to these shows not only to be personally moved, but to take 'mental notes' – to assess what they're doing 'right', and how I can 'hone' my skills as both a performer and a corporate worship leader.

In the fall of last year my wife and I attended a worship conference in Jacksonville with a number of worship leaders connected to the Morningstar movement. We received teaching from all over the board, to the theological (which I didn't always agree with, but that's to be expected – I still pulled many helpful nuggets from those) to the ever-so practical (a chance to get a guitar lesson from Leonard Jones or learn songwriting tips from Kelanie Gloeckler can change a musician for life – VERY HELPFUL), and even the personal, as we were able to connect (or in some cases, reconnect) to some wonderful, passionate, and talented song-writers and worship leaders, and old family friends. There I was really challenged in the area of 'freedom' and spontaneity in corporate worship, and challenged as a musician and encouraged as a writer, which has really paid off. Yet, there I also recognized the temptation that lies in each and every one of us towards 'legalism', and that it can rear its ugly head in even the strangest places. First we experience freedom in worship in some aspect – whether God moves us to merely lift our hands, or to dance, or some other expression of our hearts – and our 'breakthrough' affects all those around us, and that the whole congregation 'catches the bug' and erupts in similar expressions of freedom in worship. However the legalist in all of us can easily turn those expressions of freedom into a law – we either feel as though we are not 'truly worshipping' or think that other's are not 'genuine worshippers' when we don't see the same outward expressions of worship as we've experienced during our initial breakthrough into 'freedom.' So, our definition of 'freedom' becomes a new law, and we are no longer as free to sit in quiet admiration of God, or to simply close our eyes and sing – both of which, in some contexts, can be very genuine expressions of a true worshipper's heart. I'm challenging myself, and those around me, to both not be afraid to physically express themselves during worship, and yet to try to not be judgemental of those who don't express themselves in the same way.

Earlier this year I attended the 'Indescribable' Tour, with Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman, and Louie Giglio. It was absolutely incredible. In spite of the fact that it was officially a 'concert', it had none of the feel of a concert – I don't even recall either Chris or Matt were actually introduced or promoted during the event, except that they had merch tables in the hallway – the two interchanged the worship leader role, and even led other worship leader's popular songs – whatever worked to affect those present in a way that increased their passion for God, and gave them a greater view of who God is. Now, to be honest, I am not a huge Chris Tomlin fan, but he, for one, has an immense song-writing gift for melody and simplicity – something I struggle with, or rather, lack. That is the power of a Tomlin song – though they may not always be incredibly deep (though he has his moments), a whole room of any age can be singing along before they've even HEARD the chorus, which creates a sense of unity in the Body of Christ gathered – the corporate church – that is nothing short of incredible. I was mostly challenged by Chris as a songwriter. But Matt Redman – as I suspected, having loved many of his songs, and being so encouraged by his books – really embodied much of the worship leader that I strive to be. Absolutely humble on stage, much like Shane & Shane, it was hard to pay him much attention – he looked unassuming, and directed attention away from himself in such a way that you almost didn't even notice him: it was one of the first worship 'concert' experiences where I can truly say it felt as though it was truly 'all about God', and not just youth entertainment with a 'worship' sheen put on top. And though everyone seemed to know Tomlin's songs better, it was Redman who brought the room to a worshipping 'frenzy' – there was just a sense of deep passion and excitement in the room, yet it wasn't an excitement about the music: it was the combined heart of a large gathering of believers getting lost in a beautiful revelation of God's character. The lyrics of Redman's songs come about as close to hymn-like as a 'Praise & Worship' song can get, with what seems to me to be a nearly perfect balance of descriptive language of the nature and character of God, directions to the church in how to respond to the revelation of God's nature and character, and lyrics sung directly too God in response to His revelation. I think that passion, that humility, and that lyrical balance is what I took away from Matt Redman – I seek to love God that deeply, to where passion and humility would be the natural fruit of that relationship – and that Biblical balance of the vertical and horizontal aspects of good worship set are my goal. It honestly made me wonder why I ever despised contemporary worship music so much – the 'Indescribable' Tour wasn't any less 'low-worship' than the 'Hallelujah Chorus'. It would seem that all of those I encountered there would agree. I'm thankful that Giglio, Redman, & Tomlin were able to paint such a big picture of God for me – I couldn't help but worship Him.

(Continued below)

[SaintLewis]

(continued from above)

DUE TO THE SIGNIFCANT RESPONSE (MOSTLY IN PERSON) I'VE RE-EDIT PORTIONS OF THIS SECTION TO CLARIFY A NUMBER OF STATEMENTS...

This past week nearly our whole church went to see Hillsong United – the 'youth band' of the Hillsong Church – in Jacksonville. What an incredible, highly creative team of songwriters and musicians. They're the band responsible for the classic songs "One Way", & "Salvation is Here" – their sound is a loud, edgy mix of U2 & Coldplay, with more (& louder) guitars. They really are setting the standard for creativity, but to my dismay (and some have said this is an age thing), I just have the HARDEST TIME singing along to most of their material: meaning that, though it may be great for SOME youth, as corporate songs for the whole church, most Hillsong United material just isn't feasible, except in maybe certain unique congregations (and yes, I do know one church locally - Family Life - that uses a number of their songs effectively). That said, they do craft some very catchy material here and there: "Take it All" has a very powerful chorus, as does "One Way" and "Everyday" – "Salvation is Here" is just a well-crafted songs, whether intended for corporate worship or not – and "There is nothing Like" is, in my opinion, one of the most powerful contemporary worship songs I've heard in the past 10 years. NOTE: I LIKE HILLSONG UNITED!

A little background to make my point: at INSIDE OUT, the Youth Group of St. Simons Community Church where I'm BLESSED to lead worship, I let the youth band and those affiliated with the music (sound men, etc.) usually have final say in what songs we introduce - I distribute cd's with some of the most recently released worship material on them - which almost ALWAYS included something new by Hillsong United - and they choose their top 5 to add to our repertior. Of the many songs by Hillsong United I've put on those cd's over the past year, they've never gotten over 1 vote - the youth usually are more excited about the other material on the cd's. In spite of this fact, I've still have occasionally gone 'over them' and introduced at least 4 Hillsong United songs so far. In spite of the fact that I like the idea of our team having some sense of consensus (so they'll personally 'own' the new material, so to say), I enjoy HU enough, and certain songs in particular, to choose to introduce their songs to the Youth Group even though they don't 'get the vote' - even, also, in spite of the fact that it usually takes a LOT of work to learn their stuff (again, they are a GREAT BAND). That's all to say: I really like Hillsong United.

With all of that said, I struggled at their 'show'. The greatest struggle I had at the Hillsong United concert was this: much of their music that night I found discouraging. I know some have been quick to say, "You have issues!", but I know for a fact that I'm not the only one. I not only know of others who don't listen to a lot of contemporary worship music for that reason, but in fact, after originally having posted this blog, I thought it might be a good idea to ask some of the folks who went down with us (who don't myspace of this site, so they have no idea I've posted this) their opinion of the show: "a great concert" were their replies. When asked to compare HU to the Tomlin/Redman show, they basically stated "Redman and Tomlin were more worshipful, but Hillsong United was just fun." Though on their cds they regularly have songs, like the fore-mentioned "There is nothing Like" that focus the worshiper's attention on God, during the specific concert I attended a great number of their lyrics were 'me-centered' to a degree that left me emotionally exhausted rather than excited about God. When I say "Me-Centered" I mean these kind of lyrics: "I worship You", "I love You more than anything", "I'll give You my all", "I'll never turn from You". I admit it: these phrases are fine and even Biblical, balanced with a full-orbed revelation of God and His actions and character. I'm even convinced that these phrases have an important place in worship, in that there are times we need to say such things to almost 'speak truth into action' to ourselves – to push us emotionally ahead towards a passionate, whole-hearted response to God. But what about when you don't enter the 'worship environment' already primed to sings those words? What happens when the songs don't reveal enough about God, or at least REMIND you enough about WHY we should have such an emotional response to God? Not every Christian is 'hard-wired' to worship musically - they worship God most naturally in other ways (and I think we can all agree that music is just the 'tip of the iceberg' when it comes to 'worship) - those sorts of people need 'revelatory' songs to respond to: besides, ALL of worship is ultimately a RESPONSE to who God is and what He has done. For people that may arrive into that environment not 'primed' to worship musicially, 'self-centered' lyrics begin to wear on a 'potential' worshiper – I DON'T necessarily 'love God more than anything', and after a while, having the attention drawn back on me, and my emotional response, and my actions – essentially MY EXPERIENCE – if I'm not already 'there' - if I'm not 'feeling it' - too many songs back-to-back with those sorts of lyrics can actually depress a soul, instead of lift it. Again, for all those Hillsong United fans – I still like them, and will buy their new c.d. - this imbalance has not been my experience when listening to their recorded releases. But it WAS a great training ground for me as a worship leader.

You see, though it's not necessarily a Biblical fact that it is WRONG to sing those type songs, there are many people in every congregation who will not enter the sanctuary primed to celebrate God - either due to circumstances of the day, or just their personality type, and if we as worship leaders don't work hard in being sure to choose a balance of songs – songs that reveal God, songs that encourage one another how to respond, and songs sung to God in response – we risk 'losing' a segment of a congregation whom we are called to lead, and leading means being the sort of person that people are not only willing, but ABLE, to follow. I found it hard to follow Hillsong United last week AS WORSHIP (though it was a GREAT CONCERT, as a concert), though there was a segment of those gathered that seemed really caught up in the worship (and many came away really built-up - in different ways - by the event ), and it served as a reminder of how important it is to meet God's people where they are – sometimes even leaving the 100 to get the 1 – all of them, and leading them, their thoughts, emotions, spiritual life, and actions, to see and respond to God corporately.

Secondly, and this is a later thought spurned by various comments to this blog: for those of your that are married, or one day HOPE to be married - would your wife (or husband, for those women on here) be more pleased with you if you followed her around the house and reminded her of all the things YOU had done for her - including the fact that you loved her, but by listing all the ways that week you've showed her your love - or would she be MORE PLEASED if you instead told her about herself - all of the things it is about her that make you love her so? Personally, my wife would prefer the latter, but even more so, would prefer the actions that showed her my love even more - and both of those make up the Biblical idea of worship.

Yes, this is a challenge, but is the call of everyone who is called to lead others in worshiping God. Sometimes the act of LEADING means going someplace we may not need to go musically/lyrically to draw as much of the congregation as possible to a place where their hearts are unified in their passion to worship Him.

So, those are my thoughts – I hope you can glean something of value for yourself from there…

[El Ben]

In response to your previous post, Shannon, I have two questions:

1.) Why is it necessary for a song to leave you energized, or "excited" as you put it? Some of the most powerful times of worship I've ever had in my life have left me looking for the nearest bed for a nap. I guess my question is what do you mean when you talk about feeling "depressed" after a certain song?

AND

2.) What's the big deal with songs with "I" or "me" in them? Let's review some of the most powerful songs of our generation:

-Here I Am to Worship
-Open the Eyes of My Heart
-Trading My Sorrows
-(I'm Coming Back to the) Heart of Worship
-(I Am a Friend of God)

Some of the greatest song to emerge from our "worship culture" have been about the relationship between the believer and God. Some of the most inspiring notions in song have come from a worshipper talking about himself and his state to God. I'll take it one step further. Let's look at some of the greatest songs of years past:

-Amazing Grace (how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.)
-I Exalt Thee
-I Surrender All
-Just As I Am

I know it seems like I'm picking random songs to make my point for me, but honestly, I think we can all say that we have been touched by at least one of these songs. What more is worship than saying "here I am...this is me?" Maybe we're talking about our spiritual state. Maybe we're talking about what we want to do (but need a little boost in the faith department for). Maybe we're talking about our imperfections.

One of the things that annoys me most about our "worship culture" (and this is not a shot towards you or anyone else here) is that we've got these ideas in our heads about what worship has to be. Sure, we're governed by scripture to a point, but for the most part, the whole concept of "leading" worship or even "worship" as we know it today is infantile. Honestly, come on. "Worship" (in the context of a set-apart time of doing songs before a sermon) has only been around for a couple-hundred years, tops, and yet we have, for instance, a theological, exegetical explanation for why we do fast songs before slow songs. It's mind-blowing sometimes, you know?

That would be like me, a 22-year-old punk kid who's been in ministry for six months, claiming to know more than my bible-college professors. Now don't get me wrong, I love worship in the context of how it is done today, but I get a little bogged-down sometimes in the seemingly-endless sea of ideas and philosophies about something we really know nothing about.

I know it seems like I'm going off on Shannon, but I'm really not. This is a rant more directed at us, the leaders of a worship culture. Heck, I don't have nearly all the answers that I'd like to have, not even most of them, but I know that there's got to be more to it than we know or think. There's got to be a deeper level to it than this.

If worship is the gateway to God's presence and intimacy is the key to that gate, then there's got to be more to worship (in the context of musically connecting to God) than singing in front of a bunch of people on Sundays. I know what we say about worship being a lifestyle and all the other clever sayings (that become tommorrow's cliches) that we have about how it's not about a song or music or whatever, but my question is WHAT IS IT? Really. There's got to be more than some empty knowledge of forms and rituals and formulae that equate to a good worship experience.

It's got to be something vast and unknown and consuming. It makes me wonder if we really can know it, if all our human minds can handle are to sit on the edge of it and imagine how big it could possibly be. I don't know anything (that's probably becoming more and more clear to you as you read this post) and I'm not sure that I want to, because it seems to me like the more I think I know about worship, heck, about God, then the more and more constricted my view becomes and the less I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong.

Wow. I just realized how long this thing is. Well...stick a fork in me, I'm done.

[SaintLewis]

In response to 1.) - I don't know that I said that it is necessarily, and if I implied that it was, I'm sorry I did so. I'm with you on that one. When I say "depressed", I mean that the so-called 'worship' lyrics led primarily towards the act of naval gazing and self-assessment, or at least a celebration of my worshipping God, rather than actual WORSHIP - i.e.: responding to a revelation of God, though song or by actions in everyday life. The depression I speak of came from the fact that I found myself singing more about my actual act of singing and about all that I felt (or should be feeling, but in fact, wasn't) during the act of worship, than I actually sang about God, or to God about Him.

2.) Again, I did say that there is nothing wrong with songs with "I" or "me" in them - it's Biblical, to a degree (with balance) - it's simply not practically helpful for me (and many others I know) to spend an entire service singing about myself and what I'm doing for God, instead of actually singing about God. Haven't you ever been in a service and grown tired of singing "I worship You..." - what's the point in repeating such a phrase, honestly? Are we reminding God that, while we are obviously singing to Him, to not miss that point? Are we reminding ourselves, and if so, why is it directed towards God? Again, there is a place for those type songs, but we MUST NOT ever settle in and remain there, as then worship just turns in on itself and can become a celebration of our own act of worship. I think that any of us here, from any denominational background or taste in worship style can agree that simply celebrating our own acts of worship towards God would be a silly thing to pursue.

Regarding the songs you listed, I use all of them - they are powerful, Biblical songs - but only a few even come close to being the sort of songs I was addressing above. The verses of "Here I am to Worship" are entirely God-revealing, "Open the Eyes of my Heart" is a prayer to God and not ultimately about us and our worship, & the focal point of "I am a Friend of God" is the line "He calls me friend" - something God does, not something we do. Those are very God-centered songs, ultimately.

The same with Amazing Grace & Just as I Am - I (the worshiper) am not the focal point in those songs.

Maybe re-read my post after reading this further explanation and you'll understand...

I can say one thing, though - I don't know everything about worship or leading worship, but I do know myself, and when worship leaders sing ENTIRE SETS of songs that primarily celebrate my own worship of God, rather than focus upon God Himself, I grow tired quickly, and have a very hard time entering in - and I've met a great many who agree with me, as the issue has come up in conversation with others with some consistency. Every criticism in that original article was aimed at myself as well - the positive things I learned from those bands, and the negative that I recognized and personally see my need to avoid, because at one time or another we each tend to fall into one of those traps.

For instance, though it may be hard to believe for those who were totally wrapped up in Hillsong United, there were a LOT of people who were clearly not actively 'worshipping' or 'entering in' (I hate to use those words, but I think ya'll know what I mean) - as opposed to when Matt Redman was leading a few weeks before: everywhere I looked all eyes were closed, EVERY hand was raised, heads were - as far as I could see - lifted towards the roof, and voices - good and bad - were singing/shouting...and in that concert other than "Heart of Worship" a vast majority of the lyrics were directly "towards God" and "about God" - prayerful and revelatory...and I've found, in my personal experience, that those type songs often lead people more easily into a 'deep' time of worship, and the more 'me-directed' songs are a good starting point to initially get people's attention and lead them deeper. Clearly, HU were a great band, and many would call them worshippers, but I'd consider MR by far a 'better' 'congregational worship leader', which is what I'm striving to be as well.

And, I think you know I agree with you on the 'worship culture' issue - I was simply addressing the issue of 'congregational singing', not full-orbed Biblical worship: a life-response to God. When it comes to these issues, I'm only speaking practically, primarily.

>I know it seems like I'm going off on Shannon, but I'm really not.

Well, it does, a bit - but I do realize that you mostly misunderstood my original post, which I've done before too...

>If worship is the gateway to God's presence and intimacy is the key to that >gate, then there's got to be more to worship (in the context of musically >connecting to God) than singing in front of a bunch of people on Sundays.

Personally, I'd be interested in knowing where this idea comes from, Scripturally? I've heard others say similar things, and just wondered. I think of worship being a necessary response to God and who he is, and it helps practically-speaking in realigning our own passions - essentially one aspect of 'sanctification'. Since God's presence is always with believers, as we are filled with His Holy Spirit, worship can - at best - make us more aware of His presence, and that's one of the things I personally strive towards. Maybe I'm splitting hairs?

>I know what we say about worship being a lifestyle and all the other clever >sayings (that become tommorrow's cliches) that we have about how it's not >about a song or music or whatever, but my question is WHAT IS IT?

I guess I don't know why you're still asking that question, as we've addressed it ad naseum HERE (http://www.theworshipcommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3)
and the Bible is pretty clear as what worship is. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your questions, then?

Anyway, I hope you can glean a little something as a worship leader from my original post - those are just the things that God's been showing to me through those events.

[El Ben]

I now realize that starting a post with the words "in repsonse to your post..." that I intended not even really as a response but a general blanket statement was probably not a good idea.

I think I understand your points and get what you're saying, and I respect your conclusions. I'm glad that you're growing and gleaning things from conferences and concerts. There's some amazing ones that I'm hoping to make it to.

I just wanted to make it clear that my previous post wasn't a personal shot at you, and I'm sorry it seemed like I was going off on you. Clearly, you have some very intelligent, well-thought out things to say. I just happen to disagree with some of them. :D

Once again, Shannon, I apologize if it seems like I took a pot-shot. That's not what I intended.

[SaintLewis]

Nothing at all wrong with what you did - that's what these lists are for, to discuss important issues related to worship. You were 'kind' in comparison to many of the conversations my close friends and I have, or maybe you should come back to Ohio and meet my family: if you're not shouting, it's not really a 'discussion' yet. ;-)

[SaintLewis]

Clearly, you have some very intelligent, well-thought out things to say. I just happen to disagree with some of them.

How about this:
let's discuss some of those (as this is a discussion group)!

Note that some aspects of what I'd written in my original note were personal, but yet personal in a way that has affected how I do thing. For instance, as it regards song selection, though the Bible has "me-centered" Psalms, and, even though the overall witness of the Scriptures is to the greatness of God so we may take that as a 'hint' that our song repertoire should do likewise, there is not explicit Scriptural command to not sing back to back songs which are primarily what we call 'horizontal worship' (songs to ourselves, and those around us, either about our worship, or encouraging them to pursue active acts of worship), however, since too many of those songs in a worship service are a stumbling block to me personally when attempting to worship God in song congregationally, and I've met so many others who likewise struggle with the same thing, I've come to the conclusion that it's just 'best practice' to not rely too heavily on those types of songs. Again, not a Biblical mandate - just what I've been convinced by experience is helpful for many. Since this is a 'personal experience' issue, there's nothing really to take issue with - your personal experience may simply be otherwise. No one is wrong or right - it's just that how I lead may not be conducive to you easily worshiping and vice-versa.

However, if you see something in my post that you think I'm actually 'wrong' on, please do let me know, and tell me why. These sorts of conversations can really have a 'sharpening' effect and I welcome them!

blessings, bro!

shannon

[El Ben]

Tell you what, I won't waste any more space in this thread that should clearly be devoted to conferences/concerts and things learned there, but in the future, I'll let you know if I'm having trouble with something you post and we can discuss it then. I think we've pretty much settled accounts here.

[SaintLewis]

Ah - yes, forgot the purpose of this thread. So sorry. But yes, feel free - encouraged - to do so!

blessings!

[fmckinnon]

My simple reply:

Balance your set list with:
1 - songs to God, from you (what I call vertical)
2 - songs about God, to declare His worth (what I call praise)
3 - songs about God, addressed to those around us (ie. speak to one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs).

I think this is a good guideline for corporate worship, but in "special events", I'm not overly concerned if one particular one is used more than another ... we're all wired differently, thanks to our Creator, and thanks to life's circumstances that are shaping us daily.

For me, a revelation of "how big God is" doesn't move me nearly the same way of a more intimate expression of "who He is" ... that's because I'm not wired in an "intellectual" type mode of thinking. I lean towards the more emotional/personal reflection.

There are those that could spend hours and even days doing into the deep, complex mysteries of God, the Universe, etc ... it all just clogs my head - I don't make it very far in those discussions ... call me "simple minded" (LOL), but when it gets into all that stuff (btw - I'm not suggesting those topics aren't important, I'm just saying I'm not usually active in that thought process), I get the same "depressed/weary" feeling that Shannon would get from the other side ...

God made us all unique, amen!?
For the Kingdom,
Fred

[SaintLewis]

Thanks for catching that, Fred. I'm actually with you on that - though there are times, as a science lover, God's 'big-ness' does capture my attention in a special way, simply any revelation of God's nature, character, person, and actions is moving and powerful for me. Good suggestions, though. I appreciate your 'weighing in'.

[worshiptrench]

Yes, our worship should have a didactic element as well. For that reason, I love the writing of S. Townsend (How Deep the Father's Love for Us, From the Squalor). I know that they are not easy sings. In fact, in our context I call them "cheesecake worship." If you really get it, you can only handle more than one piece at a time (such as Hymns like O Sacred Head Now Wounded).

I want emotive response, but I also don't want to dumb down worship. It wears me out for me to go to some of the worship conferences I go to where the same line of a song is repeated for 12 minutes (okay, throw the Hallelujah Chorus in my face, I know). This is personal but to me it almost becomes a mantra.

The challenge is to balance the two

[chrismoncus]

When I feel I can't move because all energy is gone... When I can't breathe because of crying and snotting all over myself... When I raise my hands as high as I can and still long to be closer to God...

It's then I realize - I have less a clue about God than I did before I met Him again. I have less a clue about "church" than I did before.

Screw the formulas and theories.

God wants a heart connected to His.

Here's modern worship - me ascribing to God the credit and the honor due for Him simply being God. He saved me. He loves me. He cares for me. He knows the hairs on my head. I could never be loved more. I can never be loved less.

For me to spend one less minute than 86,400 a day at His feet is a travesty.

For me to attend an hour and fifteen on Sunday and have not connected with God is an issue more on my plate than the worship leader's.

Why did I not confess my sins? Why did I not resist that temptation? Why have I not been buried in His word? Why have I not been on my face intently worshiping Him.

While we talk about the role of a worship leader and band so much, it's the lesser issue.

We need congregations of professional worshipers though one may get a paycheck for it each week.

Here's a series idea. "Worship God". No acronyms. No plays on a TV series' name. No clever ideas.

Let's begin to pray right now for our congregations to be these worshipers the Father seeks. Those who worship in spirit and truth. John 4.

AW Tozer said this, "Christians don't tell lies they just go to church and sing them".

Let's seek God on how to better prepare our people and not only our songs. Worship starts in the heart. That's where worship leading should begin also.

I don't care what song is being sung or who it's by. If it meets the criteria of "is it worship?", it's all right with me. I believe it's also all right with God. It's all about Him, right guys?

Let's be in His Word as much as charts, ok? Let's be on our face as much as we're on a mic. Let's seek God first, before we try to lead others in doing so.

God, make us worshipers first. Lead us into leading our congregation to your throne. Guide our every step of planning so that we do your will and not ours. Lead us into difficult but rewarding new places. Teach us to be selfless in our planning. God, be glorified in us.

[SaintLewis]

When I feel I can't move because all energy is gone... When I can't breathe because of crying and snotting all over myself... When I raise my hands as high as I can and still long to be closer to God...

It's then I realize - I have less a clue about God than I did before I met Him again. I have less a clue about "church" than I did before.

Screw the formulas and theories.

Chris - some formula/theory was applied by the worship-leader in leading worship to get you to the point of seeing God and yourself in a way that leads you to cry & snot all over yourself. Some things work better in aiding people to 'see God' than others, and helping people's hearts 'connect' to God's. That's why this discussion is important - I'm trying to learn 'what works', from a practical standpoint, yet at the same-time is still 'Biblical'.


"For me to attend an hour and fifteen on Sunday and have not connected with God is an issue more on my plate than the worship leader's."

Having had been a conservative PCA Presbyterian for almost 10 years of my life before moving here, I USED to think the same way - when I 'led' worship back then I sang whatever song I thought had powerful content - true lyrics -whether or not anyone would 'connect' with those songs, or were even familiar with them (in my presby circles, the lyrics were ALL that mattered - even if the hymn had melodies that hadn't been sung in 200 years), and even after I first moved further South a little over 3 years ago, I 'led' (I don't even consider this leading, honestly) by singing what may have even been familiar songs, but I DOVE IN - VERY DEEP - from the start...totally ignoring where people where and whether what I was doing was in any way connecting - or initiating contact - with those present in the congregation, and my excuse was, "Well, I'm worshiping - if they aren't going to follow me there, that's their problem." I think there may be a LITTLE of that, but I think much of the responsibility lies of the worship leader - it's a 'pastoral' role, and as the pastor/shepherd it's our responsibility to 'lead' the sheep, sometimes even leaving the 100 where they are safe, to go get the 1, and bringing them ALL to the 'mountain-top' together, so to say.

I'd like to see this discussion continue: what things, practically can we do, that flesh out Biblical corporate worship in a way that can draw the most people possible in our congregations to see God for who He is, and what He has done, and respond appropriately?

And, I do indeed echo your heartfelt prayer:

"Let's begin to pray right now for our congregations to be these worshipers the Father seeks. Those who worship in spirit and truth. John 4."

I'll continue to pray for this, too.

blessings, bro!

[chrismoncus]

Good point bro. I don't want to let the leaders of the music and song off the hook in their responsibilities. I guess my thought was that God can be worshiped regardless of what method or style we use. We are speaking on conferences and concerts. I don't believe for a second that certain venues or bands have a corner on the market. Like it was discussed earlier, methods are constantly evolving and we constantly realize that what we did last year seems so "last year", like some of the songs we sing or the instruments we use. We are constantly finding new ways to express worship to God through music. My point was that some times we put too much credence on the method and not the one who can measure the stars by the span of His hands. I say "screw the methods" in almost desperation for something pure. I was having a "heart of worship" moment and wanted to clear the stage. That song, in fact, Clear the Stage, by Ross King could have probably been my theme song last night.

Thanks for pointing those things out.

Much love homie.

[russhutto]

I don't believe for a second that certain venues or bands have a corner on the market.
Actually, it's quite Biblical to say that maybe some do. Especially Old Testament, think Levites. THIS IS NOT TO SAY that God hasn't empowered us ALL to worship freely and with total abandon. HE HAS. But at the same time, to some he's given gifts to be teachers, to some evangelists, to some prophets, to some apostles, and to some pastors. Personally, I agree with Shannon on this topic. I believe that "worship leaders" are a pastoral role. That means, to me, that BEFORE picking out song sets, before practicing a single note, before leading a music set in a gathering, before EVERYTHING else, a worship pastor is PASTORING people.

If we're not connecting with people and helping them to grow in their daily journey with God, we might as well start a band, learn some mainstream covers, call the club, and entertain people. Because if all we're doing is "leading songs" then we're not worship pastors, let alone worship leaders.

All that to say, that God searches all across the face of this earth looking for those who would diligently serve Him. And that He has gifted certain people/groups of people with special gifts to train/equip people to not only enter into "times" of corporate worship, but to also train/equip them to live worship daily.

One thing that I find helpful periodically in helping others worship is to teach about it. Not necessarily an "Every Element of Tabernacle/Temple Worship From the Age of Old Testament Ritual and How it Applies In the Life of A Symbology Starved New Testament Church Trying to Come to Grips With What Worship Really Means" kind of teaching, but more of a here's how we can worship kind of teaching.

I know it's basic, but I love to teach on the "7 Ways to Praise" teaching. Using seven DIFFERENT hebrew words that translate into English as "praise" - and using current word pictures to describe them.

For example, "halal" means to boast, to shine, to be clamorously foolish. Kind of like David did when the Ark of the Covenant was brought home to Israel. Also, kind of like people do every Sunday at 1:00 p.m. at their favorite sporting event (football). It's where we get the phrase "halelujah" which literall means "to boast, to shine, to be clamorously foolish for/to the Lord" or as we know it "praise" the Lord.

I know most of us have already seen these seven words, but most church goers haven't and it's a really fun teaching to do, especially if you have people actually go through each "praise" as you teach them. It's a great way to "empower" people to actually worship with their bodies as well as with their hearts/mouths on Sunday morning. It's a permission granting teaching, not a life-stealing teaching (to use words from the now infamous, but still loved by God and me, Ted Haggard).

Anyways, I do a teaching like this every so often and in different ways. Sometimes I'll go over these words with our worship team. Sometimes I've done them in corporate settings. I love to do them in a small group setting, because the potential for discussion is really great.

Anybody else have any "practical" Biblical teachings on worship you'd like to share?

[El Ben]

"For me to attend an hour and fifteen on Sunday and have not connected with God is an issue more on my plate than the worship leader's."

True words. Very true. I mean, obviouslly, there has to be some significant measure of effort on our parts as worship leaders to help people connect to God. I have even made that my personal statement of purpose as a worship leader:

To facilitate the connection of creation to creator by whatever means necessary.

Let's be brutally honest for a moment here, though. As a believer, you are as connected to God as you want to be. I've yet to see a person hungry for more of God not encounter Him in some way. Think back to what Jesus said:

"If your child asked for bread, would you give him a stone, or if he asked for fish, would you give him a snake? If you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give good gifts to those who ask him?"

Here's a truth that I've come to recognize: The depth of your spiritual relationship with God is proportional to the level of hunger you express.

Does it seem way too simple? Sure. Is it that simple? I really think so.

[Lodeharper]

I've noticed that the posts here are quite comprehensive. But it's okay. Anyway, praise songs, especially those in a first person pint of view, are really empowering.



______________
berta
Chrysler Cars and Trucks Catalogs (http://www.who-sells-it.com/c/automotive-chrysler-1116.html)

[SaintLewis]

I know it's basic, but I love to teach on the "7 Ways to Praise" teaching. Using seven DIFFERENT hebrew words that translate into English as "praise" - and using current word pictures to describe them.

For example, "halal" means to boast, to shine, to be clamorously foolish. Kind of like David did when the Ark of the Covenant was brought home to Israel. Also, kind of like people do every Sunday at 1:00 p.m. at their favorite sporting event (football). It's where we get the phrase "halelujah" which literall means "to boast, to shine, to be clamorously foolish for/to the Lord" or as we know it "praise" the Lord.

Anybody else have any "practical" Biblical teachings on worship you'd like to share?

Wow, Russ - VERY HELPFUL.
I sometimes use the analogy with our youth to imagine what it would be like to have a guy/girl (depending on their sex) express their undying love for you and tell you that they'd want to be your girlfriend/boyfriend, but have them swear you to secrecy - that you couldn't tell ANYONE. Imagine how HARD that would be - when we are truly in love, part of the fullness of that emotion is our expression of that love not only to the one we love, but to those around us - when we truly love someone, we have a need to let everyone else know about the beautiful person we have discovered. I've found this as a helpful way of not only challenging youth to worship with passion, but also to tie together congregational worship AND evangelism - both are honestly opposite sides of the same coin.

I've also found it practically helpful to always make a point of 'revealing' some aspect of God, something Biblical, but hopefully tied to a short personal story of how that's effected me. Since all worship (corporate or not) is a response to God, it helps to reveal God during worship to aid worshipers in responding, but some folks, the more 'intellectual', respond more powerfully directly to the Scripture, where those who are more 'relational' will connect more deeply with the 'personal application' aspect of what we share.

Anyway - that's not to say that I always do that WELL...I've got a lot of growth to do.

[SaintLewis]

To facilitate the connection of creation to creator by whatever means necessary.

Yes
Yes YES!

Awesome, bro!

I'm keeping that!

[El Ben]

lol...Glad you liked it.

[bblankin]

To facilitate the connection of creation to creator by whatever means necessary.

let me be the second to say it: that is good.


The depth of your spiritual relationship with God is proportional to the level of hunger you express. Does it seem way too simple? Sure. Is it that simple? I really think so.

i'll give you a corollary. When people come up to me after a service and gush about how wonderful the worship was, they're not telling me anything about the worship team: they are saying, "God is really working in my heart right now."

[bblankin]

I've also found it practically helpful to always make a point of 'revealing' some aspect of God, something Biblical, but hopefully tied to a short personal story of how that's effected me.

how many of us try to build each week's song list around a specific theme? i do about 2/3 of the time. when i know the sermon theme in advance, i usually start with that. when i don't, i will usually seek the Lord for a theme before I seek his direction for specific songs. and soemtimes it works the other way round: i'll gather a list of songs, and the theme will emerge as i think about them. e.g. two weeks ago we sang:

Blessed Be the Name of the Lord
I Will Rejoice
Yesterday, Today and Forever
It Is Well With My Soul

i honestly can't say how i arrived at that list, but i realized after rehearsal that all four songs share the theme that even though our lives feel like a roller-coaster, God is always the same and always there for us.

here's where I'm going with all this: i often start the worship time by telling the folks, "the theme of this week's worship is ... so keep that in mind as we sing these songs." then i throw in a few words between songs to tie them together and keep that theme flowing.

[bblankin]

Anyways, I do a teaching like this every so often and in different ways. Sometimes I'll go over these words with our worship team. Sometimes I've done them in corporate settings. I love to do them in a small group setting, because the potential for discussion is really great.

Anybody else have any "practical" Biblical teachings on worship you'd like to share?

most of us are aware of the metaphor based on psalm 100:4
"Enter his gates with thanksgiving
and his courts with praise"
that there is a natural progression thanksgiving => praise => worship.
this ties into earlier posts in this thread RE those who barely make it into church on Sunday, and are not prepared, spiritually or emotionally, to worship God. organizing the song list to emphasize this progression can help them: it's easier to say "thank you" for some concrete blessing than it is to dive straight into deeper worship.

[russhutto]

I've always heard and been taught and maybe even practiced a bit in my time the concept of "praise" being about God, and "worship" being to/with God.

I don't know how Biblical that is, but I do know this: that when we begin to focus on things God has done/is doing, how big God is, etc. our focus is stripped away from ourselves and redirected into more of a thanksgiving mode. Like Ben B said, we begin to progress through those gateways into deeper and intimate encounters/responses with God as our focus moves more from "about God" to "to and with" God.

[El Ben]

I think we just start building walls for our worship when we start throwing around these random, uber-biblical "worship theologies" on it. Don't get me wrong, I love the analogies we were discussing earlier, but I worry about assigning an equation to anything related to God, as he has a nasty habit of working outside the equation (sometimes, it seems, just to spite the fact that it's there.) What it all boils down to for me is this: If the songs I sing are more about God than to him, does he get any less glory? If the songs I sing are more about God than to him, have I worshiped any less?

The answer, obviouslly, is no. And since this reply only serves to continue the degredation of this thread from the topic, I'm going to move it here (http://www.theworshipcommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3&page=4).

[SaintLewis]

I also responded there, and I agreed with you. ;-)

[russhutto]

No doubt! I agree. Just pointing out that what I said was not "here's my formula for worship" but what I had been "taught" in the past...

It wasn't pro-formula, it was anti formula.

[worshiptrench]

I don't believe for a second that certain venues or bands have a corner on the market.
Actually, it's quite Biblical to say that maybe some do.

The Levitical blessing was based on set-apartness of the Levitical order as a whole (consecrated/sanctified language) in the Old Testament by means of holiness as shown by adherence to specific ritual law. To equate that to modern worship leadership is a stretch at best. In fact, if you get outside of US/Western Europe to the exploding church in the East (China, Southeast Asia), their leaders are amazed at the "cult of worship" that has emerged among certain believers in their attitudes towards US/UK "superstar" leaders. In talking to the pastors in my travels, they are baffled by that phenomenon. (I would contend that the phenomenon is largely driven by the labels, but that is another post). Not to offend anyone, but I think equating the

They would contend that effective leadership is based on obedience, not that the US popular guys don't have that, they just don't have a corner of the market on it.

[russhutto]

Great points, Trench.

I didn't mean to imply that cetain bands or venues have the "corner" on the presence of God, but just as you pointed out, it's the obedient whom God uses.

IMO, it's easy to see if you visit 100 different churches on any given Sunday. I don't care how you paint it, some churches appear to have "tapped into" the "flow" (insert worship word here) better than others.

I personally believe that we all have GREATNESS written on our identities as Believers, but that greatness only comes as we become like Jesus, the Servant of all. And contrary to what many Christians believe, that greatness may not manifest until the other side of eternity. In fact, I read Jesus' words in Matthew 5,6, and 7 in that sense. That being great isn't about this side of "heaven" but about what the Father sees and rewards us for in eternity.

Back, on point. I also wasn't saying that only some NT age Believers can worship while others can't. What I was saying is that, just as God has gifted some to be this, and others to be that, leading others in worship (be it through song, prayer, teaching, study, etc) is a pastoral role, and it's CLEAR that God has gifted (and even set apart) different people for those roles.

All believers are "levites" in the sense that we are servant/priests, following Jesus, our High Priest. Now if being a worship leader in any way has any elements of super "stardom" invloved, then it's not what I was talking about anyways.

Hope this brings a bit of clarity. I stand by my original statement, that some bands/venues have a "corner" on the market...in that I believe that some people are gifted in different ways. This doesn't mean that we all don't worship.

[El Ben]

I think maybe what you're trying tos ay is that som bands or venues are more gifted at LEADING people into worship, but I would hesitate to say that they are more gifted at worship. Worship, after all, does not appear to be a spiritual gift so much as a spiritual discipline. Some people may be more disciplined in it, but as far as having a "corner on the market?" Come on, man. That's a little out-there.

[SaintLewis]

Great points, Trench.

IMO, it's easy to see if you visit 100 different churches on any given Sunday. I don't care how you paint it, some churches appear to have "tapped into" the "flow" (insert worship word here) better than others.

Russ - I like you.
I like the way you think.
And I totally agree with this. Practical. Profound.

[russhutto]

Ben, maybe that is what I'm trying to say! But if "worship" is a human response to God, then I don't necessarily think it's wrong to think that some humans may be better at it.

The "religious" elite of the New Testament were worshiping in what they thought was the "primo" forms of worship, yet Jesus called them snakes and tombs. They actually thought that they themselves had a "corner on the market" ---

I guess I would agree with you in saying that nobody really has a corner on the market in worshiping in this day and time. But I do believe that some worship is sweeter to God than others. I feel that if we read the first few chapters of Matthew (specifcally 5,6, and 7) we see the principles of the Kingdom laid out in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus lays it all out and basically says that when we do things (in response to God) we should do them to receive our rewards from the Father in secret. He's saying we should look to eternity to receive our rewards, not this life. In essence, those who run around "worshiping" with ritual, calloused hearts, and arrogance are offering a stinky sacrifice. But those who worship with humility, servant's hearts, and truth are offering a pleasing sacrifice. IMO, as I read through Scripture, I see that the "goodness" of one's worship response is based on the condition of one's heart. If you can see that as some worship being better than others, than that's what I'm talking about. If not, then we can agree to disagree.

[El Ben]

When you word it that way, I'm a little more inclined to agree with you. Just so long as we're talking about the "acceptability" of our worship to God, understanding, of course, that this acceptability doesn't have anything to do with musical quality. As long as that's the page we're on, then we're on the same page.

[russhutto]

Right on. I'm just thinking of "worship" as an outward human response (action). It may or may not be attached to music. And just as some people are good at "responding" to different relationships in many different ways, there are also others that really stink at it. I'm actually included in that last group a lot! This weekend, I responded to my wife terribly, with no patience, and a total lack of sensitivity to her feelings by the words I said and the language of my body and countenance just because I was frustrated at the circumstances we were in. My response did NOT make me a good husband in those moments. Luckily, like God, my wife DOES have patience, and although I hurt her feelings, she shared with me why and how, and I'm attempting not to repeat that incident again, but not just that, I'm also going out of my way to find BETTER responses that I can substitute if a similar situation ever arises. Hopefully, getting better at "responding" to her and to circumstances* as I go on.

How does this relate to the topic. It probably doesn't. Ha. But God showed me a lot in my moment of idiotic, bad husband-ness. And so I'm kind of lingering there for a day or two, gleaning a bit from what I learned about relationship and trying to apply it to my relationship with God.

* Disclaimer: I do understand and believe that worship isn't dictated by circumstances. Worship is objective. An object (Person) is worshiped because they are the object of worship (for whatever reason). In the Believers case, it's because God is God, the only God, and there isn't anything or anybody else worthy of worship.

[SaintLewis]

The interesting thing is, worship isn't ONLY a human response to God - all of creation worships. It only seems that humanity (and at least for a time, Angels) have the capacity of choosing who or what they will give worship to.

[Jimmy Purchase]

and this is really for El Ben,

i would not consider in any way I am a friend of God a worship song in anyway. for all the reasons Saint lewis said, who is it worshiping... us or god?

[fmckinnon]

Hey Jimmy -
I guess it all depends on how we're defining "worship" ... I probably wouldn't classify "I Am A Friend of God" as a "worship song" .. but I'd 100% definitely say it's appropriate for "corporate worship" ... both in Ephesians and Colossians, we're exhorted to "speak (sing) to one another with psalms, hymns, spiritual songs".

The song covers two "perspectives" as well - the singer is singing TO GOD, asking "who am I that you ...." .. "is it true that You are thinking of me ... how You love me .."

Then, as a response to the revelation of the answers to these questions, the singer proclaims "it's amazing", and then of course - the Chorus, "I Am A Friend of God".

So, we're communicating to God (probably a rhetorical question, really, but we're still engaging directly asking God) and then we're proclaiming our faith (and we're paraphrasing Scripture back) when we sing the Chorus, since the concept of God calling us "friends" is directly from Scripture.

Just my $.02. (in defense of "El Ben" who is still away on a mission trip to South Africa)

[SaintLewis]

Since we probably won't be seeing Bob Kauflin join this group soon (though I think I've invited him), I'll quote his newest blog post almost in it's entirety, as it relates to this topic directly:

Lyrics in worship songs can be generally categorized as objective, subjective, or reflective. Objective lyrics tell us something true about God that helps us know him better. Most, but not all, hymns from the 18th century tend to focus on objective truths. Like this one:

Before the throne of God above
I have a strong and perfect plea
A great high priest, whose name is love,
Who ever lives and pleads for me.
(Before the Throne of God Above, words by Charitie Lee Bancroft)

Subjective lyrics express responses to God such as love, longing, conviction, or adoration. Don’t assume a song that uses a lot of first person pronouns is subjective. Psalm 86 uses the personal pronouns “I, me, and my” thirty-one times in seventeen verses. But you’re never left wondering who the focus is. Also, subjective doesn’t necessarily mean man-centered. God delights in strong emotions that are a response to objective realities. These are subjective lyrics:

And I, I'm desperate for you
And I, I'm lost without you.
(chorus to Breathe, by Marie Barnett)

Reflective lyrics describe what we’re doing as we worship God. We bring our offering, we praise, we sing, we lift up our hands.

We stand and lift up our hands...
We bow down and worship him now.
(from Holy is the Lord, by Chris Tomlin)

These three categories aren’t hard and fast divisions, and many songs contain all three perspectives. All three are an aspect of singing God’s Word. But objective truth about God's glory in Christ should be the main part of the songs we sing. If it isn't, our songs will eventually drift into emotionalism and self-absorption. We lose sight of God and get caught up in our own emotions. We start to worship our experiences, become focused on how well we're doing what we're doing¸ and are more impressed with our feelings and actions than God's.

If I'm leading, or even when I'm in the congregation, I often fill in what a song leaves out. Many songs, both traditional and modern, don’t say everything we want them to. So if I'm singing, "I stand in awe of you," I might interject something like, "Your mercy is great," or "You're my Creator," or "You're seated on the throne." On the other hand, in the midst of a song packed with truth, I might express "We love you, Father," or "You are my joy," or "There's no one like you." The thing is, we don't have to settle for one or the other.

A lot of times I see churches react to a perceived imbalance and end up being unbalanced themselves - either all emotion or all theology. God wants us to enjoy both. Our songs should reflect the passionate God-centeredness of the Psalms, filled with emotion, struggle, and personal language, but leaving no doubt as to the Creator-Redeemer around whom everything revolves. Praise God, there are an increasing number of songs, both old and new, that help us the balance in tension.

To read more of Kauflin's stuff, his blog is called WORSHIP MATTERS (http://www.worshipmatters.com/).

[russhutto]

Wow, Shannon. Thanks so much for posting this. A very good perspective. I think if we approached our corporate "worship response" from this angle we'd be a lot more balanced.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and so far this has been the best picture painted of what my feelings are about "lyrical content" in what we call worship songs.

Definitely going to jump over and add BKs blog to my every day reads. Thanks.

[SaintLewis]

Should I point out that Bob Kauflin is the main speaker for the GLORIFY worship conference in Orlando that I posted a few days ago over in the 'Conferences' section? ;-)