Appropriate Expressions for Worship

[Stevie Nature]

I pulled this over from another thread that was dangerously close to being hijacked, and I know how much blindeyesopen hates that. ;)

We all know people who feel reluctant to be outwardly expressive in worship. My question is two fold.

1) Why? Why is there often a disconnect expressed by some people between the way they "feel" about God and the way they "express" this feeling to God?

2) What are appropriate expressions of worship?

What have you thoughts? Personally experiences? What have you heard from others?

[milepost13]

1) Why? Why is there often a disconnect expressed by some people between the way they "feel" about God and the way they "express" this feeling to God?

2) What are appropriate expressions of worship?



This relates a lot to This Thread on My Blog (http://practicalworship.blogspot.com/2007/08/discussion-2-personal-preferences.html) and to what I'm preaching about this Sunday.

1) I think there are four factors:

a) Personality. Some of us are just wired to be more expressive than others.
b) Cultural Background. Some people come out of a culture (community and/or church) that either doesn't exemplify or even frowns upon outward expressions of worship.
c) Ignorance. Some people have never been taught what Scripture says about worship as a verb.
d) Sin. Some people refuse to be expressive in worship because they're either living in sin or because they're just plain stubborn.

2) I believe your surroundings will dictate what are appropriate expressions of worship. I can worship God in just about any way I want to during my personal time of worship. I can dance naked, I can sing at the top of my lungs, I can confess very intimate sins...all of these things could be appropriate acts of worship at certain times and can be inappropriate at other times.

Appropriate acts of worship in a corporate setting involve anything that I can think, say and do that both brings glory to God and encourages those arround me.

Nate

[sicstrings]

Why? Why is there often a disconnect expressed by some people between the way they "feel" about God and the way they "express" this feeling to God?

It's been my experience that the disconnect exists because people have yet to learn that worship is personal but not always private. I also know some folks that will serve (worship) God all week and come Sunday morning when the worship (serving) is musical and others are watching, seem to clam up.

This clamming up could be related to preferring to worship while getting their hands dirty as opposed using our (WL) "favorite" worship expression, music.

[worshiptheKing]

Our pastor has actually been encouraging the congregation to be more expressive in/during worship. I agree with all of milepost's points. I was raised in th Presbyterian church. Not the most expressive of denominations. It was only until I found a church of my own that I discovered expressive worship. I agree with what I think most contemporaries would say is appropriate: raising hands, waving hands, kneeling, small dancing type movements during fast songs and such, clapping hands, shouting. I think there are other forms of worship, but some I think should be done in private setting. Anything that draws attention to one's self is not worship. For example: dancing out in the aisles, falling down on the floor and shaking etc. Some of these are the accepted norm in some churches which goes along with not drawing attention to one's self. (That clear as mud?) Just my $.02.

[free_by_grace]

Anything that draws attention to one's self is not worship...

I'm wondering if King David forgot about this point.

I think I agree that it can distract people and might not be seen as appropriate to draw attention to one's self, but do you think there might be some exceptions to this? I have observed a few people whose worship stood out amongst the crowd and had my judgmental thoughts about them, but I have also had times where I've seen their openness in worship and wondered if that extravagance brings a smile to the Lord.

I agree that there are some surroundings where there are certain norms for worship, but I'm not sure Jesus was always about following the norms.

[twc_admin]

That's a tough call. At first, in the "King David" example above, I tend to agree, but then I don't think you can say that (I assume you are talking about his coming in before the ark twirling and dancing 'til his clothes fall off!) ... in a way, that was an act of individual, personal worship. They weren't really in a corporate gathering.

It's a tough one, for sure. You want people to have the liberty to express themselves, but not at the expense of distracting so many people that they are hindered in their worship. I think the personal/small group versus big corporate gathering context is critical, and furthermore - the overall "feel" of the corporate environment.

[worshiptheKing]

Yeah, I want people to feel free to worship openly. There are so many factors that can be thrown in. I think that is where being a part of a church family comes in. I know that if I laid prostrate on the floor to pray that would definitely be a distraction regardless of how authentic it was. I know that and out of respect for my pastor and my church family I would not do that on Sunday morning.

[garyhodges]

Big confession here. This is a safe place, right? I'm about to rant.

I've been leading worship for about 18 years now and it still bugs the crap out of me when we sing "We stand and lift up our hands..." and one or two out of a hundred actually are doing what they're singing.

THAT's when I wonder what is going on in their heads and hearts. Come on! Are not, dare I say, most of those same people able to go nuts at a ball game without fear of what others are thinking?

IMHO - it comes down to pride for the most part. Think about it. Am I right?

Their "comfort level" seems (I know I'm assuming here) to be based upon what others are thinking. Haven't each and every one of us found ourselves thinking that at one time or another during corporate worship? How often are we unwilling to make a "sacrifice of praise"?

But I think it also comes down to the other things that have already been mentioned on this thread. I also will quickly blame the church leadership (as I already made clear on the post which spawned this one). The pastor and other leaders are "key" worshipers who set the standard.

That's all I have for now...

[worshiptheKing]

...and I agree. I have had that happen during the same song at previous churches. We actually just introduced that song to our congregation, (new church) and it went over well, they responded pretty good to participating with the song. There are a lot of "traditional" people who we are trying to teach, not really how to worship, but what worship really is and what things they can do to express it.

[R.True]

I know through many of my posts I'm sounding like a stick in the mud. I don't mean to, it's just that sometimes my experiences have lead me to it I guess.

We always have to remember that we are talking about (and we must include ourselves in this too) fallen people trying our best to discern what worshiping the God of the Universe is all about.

Gary I don't really agree with you that the Pastor or Lead needs to set the standard. Who are we following really? The Pastor or God. God has set the standard period and none of us have lived up to it, no not one of us.

All are human and of course we would like our Pastor's and leaders to be the mature Christians, but that's not always the case either. I've lived through a couple of immature pastor's overseeing my church and let me tell you, they are really hard to follow. Many people say we shouldn't "slag" God's chosen (the Pastor or Leader) but they are just as human as the next person.

On to the question at hand.

There are many more expressions of worship that we as a people have not even conceived yet I'm sure. Being a former Vineyard worship leader, I can say that I've been through (both leading and as a participant) some very "interesting" times of worship. During the 90's, through the revival movement such as the Airport Vineyard in Toronto worship times were sort of a free for all. I remember one worship time a friend of mind was at, round about the time Braveheart came out and the cry for "freedom" was sounding out in our worship services. Well, one guy stripped down buck naked and yelled at the top of his voice, "Freedom Lord, I receive your freedom!" Well, I'm pretty sure no one else in the congregation wanted to him to receive God's freedome at that moment. I'd say that's not an appropriate expression of worship in our day and age, atleast not in public, maybe in the private place of worship.

Because we are fallen people what will be totally acceptable to one person will seem like total blasphemy to another when in fact, All expressions of worship which are done with an honest heart and true desire to worship God needs to be acceptable. When people start dumping their own expectations of what is or is not acceptable in worship to God, we really loose sight of what we are there for in the first place.

Because we will never (maybe when we see him face to face) fully understand or fathom the vastness of who God is, we will generally fall short in our expressions of worship to him. Oh, we will have times when we come awfully close to our level of "high" but is that really what God has in mind for our times of worship? I don't have the answer to that one.

Remember, we as people have divided ourselves up into different groups of Christians, we have Baptist, Pentecostals, Anglican, Lutheran, Mennonites, Southern Baptist, and the ever popular "non-denominational" types like Vineyard, Hill-song's, Seeker sensitive (Willow Creek), Calvary Chapel, and all the little "community" churches out there going it alone, to name a few.

Why has Christianity become like this? One reason is because we can't seem to agree on what is appropriate these days when it comes to having a relationship with God and our worship expressions are no different.

Distractions only come when we are not engaging ourselves with the almighty. Not because some person is dancing about with a flag, all around the congregation, or some other person is off in a corner looking like Eddy Van Hallen rocking out with Jesus. These people are freely expressing their praise to God and we are saying they can't because they are a distraction? Come on people, we want to allow everyone to be free children of God right. What is heaven going to be like. Do you think God is going to cordon off groups of people? "The Baptists need to go over here because they can't worship me in the same way the Pentecostals do", "Oh and make sure you keep those Vineyard people away from the Anglican's, that's just a real mess waiting to happen". God can handle everyones expression of worship. I'm honestly glad when I see someone free enough to dance around the room praising God, or another person shouting out at the top of their voice "I LOVE YOU LORD, YOUR THE GREATEST THING I'VE EVER KNOWN". I also love to watch one good friend of mind in particular who just stands there with a smile on her face as she's singing quietly to her Lord and King. She's not distracted by the dancer rushing by her, she is totally focused on God.

People shouldn't be blamed for the cause of being distracted, we are distracted because of ourselves choosing to turn our focus on those around us instead of fixing our eyes upon Jesus.


Helen Lemmel said it best when she paraphrased a gospel tract into this simple verse in 1922

Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.

[worshiptheKing]

"People shouldn't be blamed for the cause of being distracted, we are distracted because of ourselves choosing to turn our focus on those around us instead of fixing our eyes upon Jesus."

Thanks bro'. That is a great word!!

[El Ben]

I wonder if the real question is this:

Is our ability to worship the One True God so delicate and weak that we get distracted by someone dancing? Clearly they are not distracted by us.

Just a thought.

[Stevie Nature]

True,

Your post was long, so let me apologize in advance, because my response will have to be pretty long.

Gary I don't really agree with you that the Pastor or Lead needs to set the standard. Who are we following really? The Pastor or God. God has set the standard period and none of us have lived up to it, no not one of us.

I think what Gary is getting at is that the pastor (and I would argue other church leaders) should lead the congregation. This does not simply begin and end with the pulpit. Often a congregation will only be as engaged or fervent or whatever as the perceived engagement of the pastor and other leaders. To suggest that the a leader is someone to imitated is not to say that we're not at the same time focusing upon and honoring Christ. Consider the words of Paul in 1 Cor. 4:16 "I urge you, then, be imitators of me", and his further clarificationin 1 Cor. 11:1 "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." God gives us leaders to lead us to Christ. It's not an either/or, but a both/and.


All are human and of course we would like our Pastor's and leaders to be the mature Christians, but that's not always the case either. I've lived through a couple of immature pastor's overseeing my church and let me tell you, they are really hard to follow. Many people say we shouldn't "slag" God's chosen (the Pastor or Leader) but they are just as human as the next person.

To be honest, I wouldn't be at a church with such a pastor. Pastor, overseer, elder...these are all the same office the qualifications of which include maturity.

Because we are fallen people what will be totally acceptable to one person will seem like total blasphemy to another when in fact, All expressions of worship which are done with an honest heart and true desire to worship God needs to be acceptable.

I really have to disagree with you there. Not everything that is done in sincerety is to be understood as acceptable. I mean, you just gave the example the William Wallace wannabe. Look at the book of 1 Cor. Paul corrects many abuses in worship. (I'd go into them, but this is already going to be a long post, and I'm sure you can think of a couple if you're at all familiar with the book.) I'm sure many of the Christians at Corinth were sincere in their desire to honor God, but that really wasn't the point to Paul. Some of their worship practices were not appropriate so Paul corrects them.

When people start dumping their own expectations of what is or is not acceptable in worship to God, we really loose sight of what we are there for in the first place.

I agree with you that we ought not stand over someone in judgment of their worship to the point that we do not worship. That's not the reason for this question. As worship leaders we should constantly mindful of how we can help facilitate the worship of our Lord in our churches, and elsewhere if we have the opportunity. The question is, how can we help our people worship God in a way that is honoring to Him. The problem is that we've made worship so personal, that our own existential experience trumps pretty much everything...often, even what God has prescribed or forbidden in His word. I guess that's all I'll say about that now.

Distractions only come when we are not engaging ourselves with the almighty. Not because some person is dancing about with a flag, all around the congregation, or some other person is off in a corner looking like Eddy Van Hallen rocking out with Jesus.

You can't seriously believe that. If I'm sincerely worshipping God, and all of someone goes into some kind of frenzy next to me, bumping me, and screaming loudly very near my ear, I'm not to be distracted.

These people are freely expressing their praise to God and we are saying they can't because they are a distraction? Come on people, we want to allow everyone to be free children of God right.

No, not primarily. My primary desire is to be honoring to God. The question is what is honoring to God in a corporate worship setting? This is the reason for this thread.

What is heaven going to be like. Do you think God is going to cordon off groups of people? "The Baptists need to go over here because they can't worship me in the same way the Pentecostals do", "Oh and make sure you keep those Vineyard people away from the Anglican's, that's just a real mess waiting to happen".

I'm not really what your point is here. No, I don't think God will segment off different groups. I'm not sure what this has to do with having standards for worship.

God can handle everyones expression of worship. I'm honestly glad when I see someone free enough to dance around the room praising God, or another person shouting out at the top of their voice "I LOVE YOU LORD, YOUR THE GREATEST THING I'VE EVER KNOWN". I also love to watch one good friend of mind in particular who just stands there with a smile on her face as she's singing quietly to her Lord and King. She's not distracted by the dancer rushing by her, she is totally focused on God.

Let me ask you. Is there any standard at all? Is there something that you would absolutely not do in worship?


I guess, in general, what concerns me is that there seems to be some people who believe, or at least function as if, there is no objective standard for worship. Personally, I hold to the regulative principle. I think that Scripture needs to be our guide as to what is acceptable in worship. I'd go into it, but this is already a long post.

[russhutto]

I sometimes wonder why we have to "define" what is an appropriate worship expression? No that I haven't tried to, I think we as humans are just creatures of comfort and we like to compartmentalize everything...

But if worship is more than just music....

If it's more than just clapping, singing, shouting, dancing, kneeling, etc...

It's a spiritual act. It comes from within. It's a heart thing.

To me: an appropriate "act" or expression of worship is one that comes FIRST from a heart that is turned towards God.

And don't fool yourself. If you're heart is really and truly turned towards God, you won't be doing "inappropriate" acts of worship. At least not to GOD! I agree with those before who are hinting at the underlying issues of pride and ego that try and dictate what is good, when truly when all the dust settles there is only ONE who is truly GOOD, and that is GOD!

Of course, we are united to God through Christ, so HE in us is truly good, and if we're communing with Him, then shouldn't most (if not everything) that comes out of us be "appropriate"?

This is not to say that we can do it on our own, but I mean true worship is SPIRITUAL. And it's only by God's grace that we can even worship in the first place, so it all comes back to GOD!!

Appropriate worship is GOD-centered, not man-centered.

I think the problem for most of us is trying to balance out an authentic, worship oriented gathering, with the need to edify and evangelize. We try and squish it all into one package. Might grow churches in numbers, but it just doesn't seem to be the "true worship" that a lot of us know is "out there"...

I think if we just had "gatherings of worship" along side of evangelistic events/gatherings, Bible teaching gatherings, service "projects" we might experience some sort of change? Good or bad? I don't know.

I just know that the "western" idea of "worship" isn't really what God had in mind.

[Stevie Nature]

I just looked over my post and there were a lot of typos. I was at work when I wrote it, and didn't get a chance to proof read. Oops. :o

[R.True]

Wow Stevie your response was really long.

First off, thanks for taking the time. I really like the fact that you really really care about this stuff. I've seen way to many worship leaders who have made it more about them than God or the people in the congregation.

Honestly, Bravo :)

I'll try to shorten my answers a bit :rolleyes:

Church leadership should really be taken over to a different topic. I'm sorry for bringing it in here. The long and the short though for me is that I was a "member" (not that there was membership, that's another issue too) long before the immature pastor came along. So to answer your response, I wasn't going to leave the church I loved because someone else made a bad decision that couldn't be changed. Many people did leave because of the pastor but we didn't and wouldn't.

Second response. There is a time and place for everything, including getting naked before the lord. Everything in it's place and a place for everything.

1 Cor was about a chastisement of how these people use to be and still were being despite being saved. Of course what they did was inappropriate, but even Paul said that it would be best if a man was not married and remained celibate like him (a little big on himself I'd say [ducking now]) The people at Corinth were messed up man, like really. They were drunkards, womanizers and basically anything went sexually. The were very prideful and arrogant with one another. I'm sure those characteristics didn't change once they receive Jesus. That's what Paul was writing to them about.

Third response. WORSHIP IS PERSONAL!!! Do you really think that God wants us all in a little neat organized box? Really?

Forth response. Yes, I do believe that distractions only come when we are not engaging with God. Why can't people look at someone dancing around and be moved to worship MORE rather than turn their nose up at that person? So the person bumps you or even comes up and hugs you because they "Can feel the love of God in this place, We believe your goodness, We receive your grace" (thanks Kevin Prosch). Why do we get annoyed with people who are truly embracing God and loving him with all their heart, all their soul and all their strength. Now, I can be a fool for God when I worship. I'm a really bad dancer, I'm not the best flag waver, I'm very good at yelling and I love to run around and follow the dancers who will lead me around the congregation, BUT it wasn't always this way. It took me a long time to accept this style of worship to God. But God kept prodding me and asking me to look at these peoples hearts. See that they are in love with me and when people are truly in love, they do things that can not be explained.

Fifth response. Being honoring to God. Is that suppose to be the exact same thing for you as it is for me, or for my neighbour or for the little old lady who sits in the front row each Sunday morning? God is vastly bigger than we will ever every know and what you think is honoring to God, might just be boring to another. Don't place God in a box by saying we need to restrict the way people express themselves to God in a corporate worship setting. Yes there needs to be limits on what is acceptable in a corporate setting, but what is that limit.

I'm certainly not going to be the one to make that box of limits. I want to expand the limits in which man has placed on ourselves. We need to free ourselves for the religiousness of our day and give God all the glory that we can while we are here on earth. This is just practice remember. When we get to heaven, their aren't going to be any rules in how we worship God as long as it's God we are worshiping. Who am I or you or anyone else for that matter to say what is honoring to God. Only God can judge the heart. Yes we need to be discerning of what is going on, that's why we ask for wisdom. But can't you see the heart felt expression on people who are truly dancing before the lord and giving him honor and glory with the talents that he has given them?

I think that there could be two, maybe three rules (dare I say) for worshiping God while we are here on earth. First rule, Love your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength (Show him this in your worship to him). Second rule, love your neighbour as you love yourself. Third rule, treat others as you want to be treated.

Can you see how these can be conflicting? But they are all "commandments" given to use in scripture.

I'm not saying that figuring this all out is easy. Maybe that is why we as humans have separated ourselves one from another, because You don't worship the same way as I do.

Is there anything that I would not do in worship? Hummmmmmm, good question. Well, if I knew that I would be honoring God but look like a fool to everyone else around me......you bet, I'd be doing what ever it was I thought would honor God.

This is not easy stuff, it can be hard really, but I guess I'd rather err on the side of allowing a good amount of freedom for people to express their love to God than to restrict them by saying "you can't do this" or "you can't do that, It's not honoring to God".

What is the regulative principle? sounds really legalistic. (am I stirring your pot enough yet?)

Stevie, and all. I want to see God worshiped, in any way imaginable. As long as it's with a pure heart and is a true expression of who God is, I honestly don't have a problem with it. But remember, everything has it's place and there is a place for everything.

I'm pretty sure you'd have a big issuse with the way I lead. It's kind of a free for all :D, but that's where I'm at with all this. I'm tired of it being neat and tidy all wrapped up with a nice big bow. That just isn't what worshiping God is about to me.

[R.True]

Blindeye open, we should talk. You really speak my language.

[Stevie Nature]

Okay, it's pretty late so I'll try to keep this short. Here is the basic dividing line between us as I see it. I look to Scripture to describe what are appropriate acts of worship. You seem to take a more laissez-faire approach. Basically, when it comes to the worship of God, anything goes. Here is the problem I have with that. There is no objective standard for what is acceptable and what is not. The individual becomes the grand arbiter of what is acceptable to God and what isn't. This can obviously lead to some problems. What happens when someone does something in worship that you perceive to have gone too far. I had a friend of mine at a service where some guy got all wound up on stage and quite literally stomped another guy's guitar to pieces. I think every musician here would agree that, that is too far. Well, let me ask you. By what authority do you tell this guy that he's not to stomp people's guitars for the Lord? You have your subjective reality and so does he. He can simply respond, "It didn't make much sense to be either, brother, but the Lord told me to do it." What do you appeal to show him he's wrong?

This is partially why I subscribe to the regulative principle, which basically means that Scripture ought to regulate what goes on when the church meets. If that's legalistic, then so be it. (On a side note I'm a little tired of people crying legalism every time someone suggests there might be a prescribed way to live the Christian life. Legalism is not attempting to keep God's commandments, it's attempting to gain God favor, specifically salvific favor, through the keeping of these laws. A Christian keeps God's commandments as a response to already having gained favor with God through the atoning work of Christ.)

Anyway, that's all I've got for tonight. I hope that was fairly coherent.

[R.True]

I don't think your getting my point. I do subscribe to scripture based Christian living. It's one of the only measures we've got. Unfortunately we will always look at scripture through our own lens which is usually crafted by our forefathers best intentions (read interpretations, how many translations are out there now?)

Let me ask you this, if you were a Christian living in 1050 AD where would you stand once hearing the Pope's plan for another crusade to win back Jerusalem from the Muslims. Would you have gone so your sins would be remiss? That was the propaganda used you know for getting these "soldiers of the church" to go to war.

If you were living in 1550 AD and were a devout Christian catholic who was trying to follow Christ what would you have done when you heard the words of Marin Luther that you were being lead by those who were presenting a false doctrine?

Now I'm glad that these man took the catholic church to task as what they were doing in the name of God was wrong. But what I'm getting at is this. Even the messages from our forefathers have been passed down to us through the human lens by which we see all things.

What do you think of my (be it limited) three rules. They are all scripture and the three most basic principles we have to live by.

All three of those principles were broken when your friend had his guitar trashed by the wound up guy. Did he really say God told him to wreck another persons property. Of course he had no right to do that. That's not God's heart at all. Who would have allowed this person on stage to begin with. Was he known by the members of the team? Was he invited on stage?

You asked "what do you appeal to show him he's wrong" I would have asked him this "Did you stop to check with the owner of the guitar? Did you tell him you felt God tell you to trash his guitar? What was his response to this? Ya, I felt the Lord tell me to trash my guitar too!" Come on, God has placed moral boundaries in us all for a reason. We all know trashing someones guitar isn't right just like killing thousands of Muslims to win back the "City of God" isn't right either.

Stuff like this can happen I guess although this is the first incident that I've ever heard of where someones personal property was destroyed in a worship service.

Have we not learned anything from history (which was pasted down to us in the bible)? Are we the same type of baby Christians like the Corinthians, needing a good tongue lashing by the apostle Paul? I certainly hope we've matured a considerable amount beyond those early believers.

We need to of course look at the bible as our guide, but we also need to come to the understanding that we can go beyond this guide by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the examples set out by the letters written in the Bible. We are not bound to live the lives of people from 2000 years ago. Surly we as a race and followers of Christ have moved beyond them. Read 1 Cor 2:6-15

It would be really sad to see us still drinking milk after 2000 years of enlightenment from the Holy Spirit and much discussion (such as this) and debate over what is right in the eyes of the Lord and what is not.

Stevie, your making me out to be someone with out any standards. That's just not the case.

I'm just trying to get you to see that there's more to consider.

God is in control, no doubt about it. He is the beginning and end. He knows the outcome of our lives before we were even conceived. He knew that I would be writing this post to you and he even knows what your feeling inside toward me right now (I don't though, hope it's not to frustrated). He judges the hearts of men and He alone sees authenticity and what is just human will to do what the human would. He is still in control though.

There is no one in scripture who has not let God down but for Christ. No one is perfect and every single session of worship, ever sermon ever spoken, every prayer ever prayed, every life ever lived will be unfortunately laced with our humanness, that's just the way it is and will be until we are all taken home and can be freed from our sin.

I'm not saying everything is permissible (although Paul said this in 1 Corinthians) and most certainly not everything is beneficial either. There's just this more to consider.

I think I'll move on to the next topic here. I believe that I've explained myself as best I can. I am honestly just trying to open the eyes of your heart to see worship in a possibly new way.

Stevie, you've won my respect as a brother in Christ. I truly wish you all the success as a worship leader. It's not an easy job and can be really taxing on the spirit at times. I'm sure a debate like this isn't easy on the spirit either.

I'll end by saying this. I certainly may be wrong in my thinking and you've given me some good things to think about.

Thank you.

[Stevie Nature]

True,

First, let me begin by saying I have no hard feelings toward you whatsoever. I know it's hard to discern tone online. Just imagine us sitting a back porch, coffee in hand, and a warm smile. Just two brothers chatting. :) That being said, we begin.

I don't think your getting my point. I do subscribe to scripture based Christian living. It's one of the only measures we've got. Unfortunately we will always look at scripture through our own lens which is usually crafted by our forefathers best intentions (read interpretations, how many translations are out there now?)

This, again, is the dividing line. The question is not the helpfulness or usefulness of Scripture, rather the sufficiency thereof. You say that you subscribe to "scripture based living" and that it is "one of the only measures we've got." I do not attempt to live a life simply based on Scripture, rather to have my life conformed entirely to Scripture. I do not believe that it is one of the only measure we've got. It is the only sure infallible measure we have. Now obviously not everything we need to know in life is explicitly mentioned in Scripture, but there are many implied principles that can be used. I believe that the farther we get from Scripture the less certain we can be about a given issue. We are not talking about auto repair. We are talking about worship. The Bible speaks much on this subject. The discussion should be held on the grounds of Scripture.

Let me ask you this, if you were a Christian living in 1050 AD where would you stand once hearing the Pope's plan for another crusade to win back Jerusalem from the Muslims. Would you have gone so your sins would be remiss? That was the propaganda used you know for getting these "soldiers of the church" to go to war.

I can't tell you what I'd do during that time. That's not really the point. The reason the pope was giving indulgences was a lack of submission to Biblical authority. When there is no objective authority, anything goes. This only further demonstrates the need for an absolute submission to Scripture.

If you were living in 1550 AD and were a devout Christian catholic who was trying to follow Christ what would you have done when you heard the words of Marin Luther that you were being lead by those who were presenting a false doctrine? Now I'm glad that these man took the catholic church to task as what they were doing in the name of God was wrong.

Basically, same as above. Sola scriptura was one of the cries of the Reformation. Praise God for such men as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et al.

I'm not saying you don't have standards. I'm saying you don't have Biblical standards. If your standard is what seems right to you then it is subjective and arbitrary.

I guess that's about all I'll say about this stuff. I'm at work so I'm not that I've been very clear on this post. Anyway, we'll have to interact on this stuff later.

[worshiptrench]

Sometimes the worshipers aren't expressive because they are mirroring worship leadership from the platform that is either non-expressive or so fake that they wouldn't ever mirror it. Brent delivered one of the best challenges to our worship team that I have heard in a looooong time on the subject. Its audio only in form or i'd cut and paste here.

Mp3 is at http://www.worshiptrench.com/?p=135

[Stevie Nature]

Yeah, I think you posted that somewhere here before. I listened to it. Very good. Very challenging. It's something I've talked to my team about as well as considered for myself.

[russhutto]

Quick story:

I have a friend, we'll call him "Mr. Bass Player". He is a fellow "worship team" participant and has been for over a year. Mr. Player has had a hard time being consistently on time and I, "Mr. Put In Charge 3 Weeks Ago", was informed by the powers that be that it was "ok" to begin a probation period with Mr. Player to begin this past Sunday.

I have been in a pseudo-leadership position over the past year as well, and have observed that Mr. Player has not grown spiritually in any significant way, has made no attempts to plug-in to church family life, and rarely sticks around during the "message" times on Sundays - these few items were going to be the topic of a discussion with Mr. Player and our pastor in the next few days.

* Disclaimer: Mr. Player was invited to join us on the team with the hopes that he would begin to move FORWARD in his relationship with Christ and with others on the team and in the church family. That was over a year ago and honestly there's been no change.

If Mr. Player was late again, we would begin the process of removing him from the team. So, this past Sunday, we're an hour past "show up" time and Mr. Bass Player is no where to be found, no explanatory phone calls, text messages, or emails. Then all of the sudden he rushes in and right before he begins to plug in and play, I, "Mr. In-Charge" have the excruciating task of ASKING Mr. Player to sit out for the morning since we have already established guidelines in place that basically say if you're more than 20 minutes late don't worry about playing.

With as much love and care not to offend Mr. Player, Mr. In-Charge proceeds to carefully explain why Mr. Player needs to just sit this one out. Mr. Player huffs and puffs and says his cellphone is dead so he couldn't call. Mr. In-Charge says "I'm really sorry, but rules is rules" after which, Mr. Player storms out.

***Awkward moment ensues as the worship team kind of looks around at each other nervously.***

Fast forward to about 10 minutes before start time and Mr. In-Charge gets a phone call from Mr. Bass Player, you remember, the one who's cell phone is dead...

Mr. Player is freaking out and railing on Mr. In-Charge saying that he's taken away his opportunity to "play for God" and that "worship" is the only thing he's got in his life right now. Mr. In-Charge can't get a word in, but knows that he made a good decision and sticks with it....

Mr. Player informs Mr. In-Charge that the reason he was so late is because he was up past 5 a.m. due to the death of a close friend. Mr. Player will bring the obituary to prove it. He keeps saying this over and over.

Mr. In-Charge feels terrible, but knows that REGARDLESS of the circumstances, more than 20 minutes late is the established guideline, and that if Mr. Player would have stuck around for a few minutes that Mr. In-Charge would have asked him to just hang out and enjoy the time of music and message, ya know, just to breathe a bit and be refreshed.

Again, Mr. Player seems to be on crack or something and hangs up on Mr. In-Charge.

Anyways, Mr. In-Charge really, really LOVES Mr. Player as a person, and could care less if he plays the bass, but would rather see that he grows in relationship with Christ.

Long story long, haha, Mr. Player basically states that his "bass playing" is for God and that NOBODY should be able to tell him when he can or can't "worship" thru playing. This my friends is called spiritual masturbation. Using "worship", bible study, church, or anything that God has given us for HIS glory to stroke our OWN egos and immature, selfish desires.

Basically it all comes down to this. Mr. Player will not be playing with us anymore. He will be invited to just come and plug in to the church family. To grow with us. He is loved. He is accepted, but he needs to grow up.

The only reason I bring this story up is because many, MANY people that I've come across throughout my many years in churches are spiritual masturbators. They are seflish, egotistical, and immature. They view worship as their own personal pet. Something that is their own pick me up. Their personal Genie in a bottle.

These are the people who think they are "losing" themselves in worship when in reality they aren't looking for anything other than what they, themselves, can "find" for their own consumption in "worship". Worship doesn't exist to stroke our desires. Worship was not created for us. We were created for worship.

Plain and simple: worship is about GOD. The hard part is "fleshing" that out in a corporate setting. It is my belief that our gatherings should be about exalting GOD in worship and encouraging OTHERS in the process. Our "selves" are third on this list, if they are even on the list at all.

I do think we love God and love others (as our selves), but that line doesn't mean we are to go around loving our selves primarily.

Ok, VERY VERY long post, sorry, but I just thought this story and my thoughts might be of some benefit to the topic, if not, I apologize, you can hurl donuts at me if you like.

[garyhodges]

I have to stand with Stevie here. My motto is: If it can't be substantiated by scripture then it needs to be drawn into serious question. If we hold our teachers to that standard, we should hold our worship leaders to the same.

I know that the leadership in the "Toronto Blessing" believed that they were following a "new work" of the Holy Spirit, but when you stand back and hold it up to the light of Scripture, gaping holes quickly become apparent. That's why (if my information is correct) Wimber disfellowshipped them from Vineyard.

If anyone has exhausted all the expressions of worship found in scripture and they are no longer "working", let me know. I'd be interested to see if that has ever happened.

[El Ben]

*** MODERATION ALERT***

The Worship Community is a non-denominational, free-standing resource to you, the leaders of your own various worship/tech departments. We are here to encourage and offer assistance to each other, not to rail on other members or their respective churches or any other church for that matter. Please refrain from openly criticizing any specific church, leader, or denomination, or organization. If you feel the need to loud out these particular ministries, please do so in private messages and not in the public forums. Thank you and please continue this lively, interesting conversation.

[Stevie Nature]

El Ben,

In your opinion, was that line crossed? If so, where? You're one of the moderators, so it's your rules. Personally, I'm of the opinion that brothers ought to be able to ask each other the toughest of questions, and challenge each other's convictions. Iron sharpening iron gives a picture of the tearing away of ourselves and there's often pain involved, but in the end we're made a more useful tool. Looking back over the post's I'm pretty sure none of us openly attacked the other or the other's denomination. Anyway, let me know. I don't want to do anything out of line.

[russhutto]

I'm thinking that "Mod Alert" might be in reference to the "Toronto" comment??

[El Ben]

I'm checking with Fred to confirm our policy mentioned in my previous moderation alert.

[R.True]

I think I'd like to say one more thing in this post ;)

Stevie and Gary are right. We must hold up scripture as the highest standard for our lives. If our worship can't be substantiated by scripture than it is susceptible to doubt and question from each other as we all struggle along our journey's with God.

One question that has been rolling around in my head these last couple of days is this;

What role does the Holy Spirit play in each of your lives today? Was the Holy Spirit not given to us to discern what we are to do along with scripture? There are more verses' in the book of Acts that mention the working of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the first Christians and also in the lives of the Gentiles than I can count.

How many people are spoken to by the Holy Spirit in Scripture? To many to count I'm sure, both in the old and new testament.

The Holy Spirit was speaking to God's people before they received scripture, while they were receiving scripture (letter's from Paul to many gentile cities and nations) and after scripture was received.

What I want to know is this; What role does the Holy Spirit play in our lives today. Not just in the area of musical worship but all forms of worship such as worship in the form of giving our tithes and offerings, worship in the form of surrender of our very lives to God.

Doesn't the Holy Spirit open our eyes, mind, spirit and heart to what scripture is saying both to those it was first written to and what it means to us today? Doesn't the Holy Spirit speak to us, just as he (although I wonder if the Spirit is actually genderless) spoke, fell on, taught, enlightened those we read about in scripture.

When I said back in my last post the scripture is ONE of the only measures we have for Christian living the only other measure that I believe we have is the Holy Spirit, revealing God's truth to us be it scripture and what it means to us today as well as to those it was first written to or through spiritual revelation. What relevance scripture has to our society in the 22nd century. Did Jesus not tell us in John 14:9-27 that he was sending the Holy Spirit to us? Was that "us" meaning to the disciples of the day? To the following believers who the disciples touched and the Holy Spirit fell on? To the remainder of all mankind who believe on Christ for salvation from sin and reconciled relationship back to God through him?

The Holy Spirit has spoken through most of our scriptural mentors (The apostles, David, Moses to the children of Israel, Arron to help Moses to name a few) with wisdom (proverbs) words of knowledge (David prophesying about Judas) also to name a few.

The Holy Spirit lead Jesus in the desert after he was tempted by Satan. Was Jesus weary from such temptation that he had to rely on the Holy Spirit to guide him? He is one with the Holy Spirit just as he is one with the Father and Jesus said that because we are one with him, we will also be one with the Father. Is it safe to assume that we are also one with the Spirit if we are one with Christ?

I have to believe that the Holy Spirit is real to us today and that the Spirit is given to us to open our eyes to not only the things written in scripture but also to enlighten us with what God has for us as Christians in the 22nd century just as the Holy Spirit was given to the first Christians in Acts and given through Paul to the Gentile's.

So what does that mean for our worship times (be it musical which is mostly what this board is about or any other act of worship we may perform) and what is appropriate in Worship?

Thought's?

[russhutto]

If it is contrary to Scripture then it isn't the Holy Spirit.

Which sometimes is a hard bite to swallow, because a lot of times in the 21st century we're dealing with things that 1st century Christians couldn't have ever dreamed of. YET, the STATE of humanity remains the same. Apart from Christ we can do nothing, we are fallen, sinful, and utterly gone. But IN Christ we are free, redeemed, washed, and humbly victorious.

I'm just thinking that the Holy Spirit, who is the Son, who is the Father (yet distinct) won't "lead" us into areas that aren't covered in Scripture, and by that I mean that he won't call us into areas that would produce unscriptural thoughts and behaviors, or lead us into any actions that are opposed to the concepts and "attitudes" of Scripture.

[twc_admin]

Hey Gang,

Thanks Ben for the mod alert .. yeah, Gary (love ya, bro) meant no harm, but I agree with Ben, in our dialog, the best policy is to not get too specific by calling out the names of individuals and/or specific churches.

If you would've said "a big movement that was going on up in Canada" it woudn't have caught the mod alert .. but putting the church's name in there gets a little specific.

It's a fine line ya'll - we don't want to over-moderate by any means, but I think we can still get our thoughts/theologies across without having to mention specific people or churches, if whenever possible.

Now .. on with the discussion.

[worshiptrench]

thinking that the Holy Spirit, who is the Son, who is the Father (yet distinct)

Blind Eye, let's clarify that a little...homoousios (same substance) is the Creedal word but not same as "Holy Spirit, who is the Son, who is the Father" but I'm sure you didn't mean it that way as evidenced by your parenthetical comment. I am just really picky on Trinitarian language. Hey, but one of the largest "churches" in Dallas isn't even Trinitarian (and hence its questionable to call them a "church" in light of Church History) (and look I didn't even mention their name).

[Stevie Nature]

Do we have a modalist in our midst? Just kidding. I'm sure you didn't mean it. worshiptrench, I appreciate your theological accuracy....and from a worship leader. :eek: there is hope for us yet.

Anyway, to get back to the topic. I completely agree with blindeyesopen (except of course for his slip into non-Trinitarianism :D). If it is contrary to Scripture it isn't from the Spirit. God does not contradict Himself so if something is going on that is contrary to God's word then it's not of God.

As far as the role of the Spirit goes, I believe He is as active as ever. He leads and guides His people, He seals them, He directs us to Christ. Again, He will never move contrary to what He has already revealed through Scripture.

[garyhodges]

Sorry guys for overstepping the line in my previous comments. I tend to get a little touchie when it comes to this subject.

[russhutto]

Blind Eye, let's clarify that a little...homoousios (same substance) is the Creedal word but not same as "Holy Spirit, who is the Son, who is the Father" but I'm sure you didn't mean it that way as evidenced by your parenthetical comment. I am just really picky on Trinitarian language.
Thanks for clarifying for me. I'm not a modalist. I'm a good ol' 4th century orthodox Trinitarian.

Yay, Blessed Trinity!! Go God!

[IanMcIntosh]

haha well this is fun... I kinda go with the loose interpretaion. When you work with youth, stuff ends up being a lot more obvious, or so it seems. haha. A lot of our youth dance REALLY crazy, and some of the shake, and some of them do more... questionable things :-). However, as far as doing it to look cool... they're 15-18... it's not cool for them hahaha.... so the whole sacrifice of praise thing comes through. Another thought is that if we do call it a sacrifice of praise... scripturally that refers to Old Test sacrifice. which is... messy. really messy. like walking between two halves of a sliced butchered and bloodied calf. ewww.

ewwww.

Now. Honestly tho, my opinion? I choose not to have one. God is certainly large enough to deal with them himself, and we make a point of having relationship with our kids, so we know their heart. And that's all we're worried about. If they're wanting to glorify and honor God, and they're not going and destroying things and getting naked or whatever lol, then we're cool with it. I sometimes wonder if there is a correct answer to any of this at all, if God isn't just sitting up there chuckling at out right or wrong mindsets haha.

So yeah, I keep a more open type mindset about it all. I kinda think if I were to question people's methods of worship, I would kind of be asking for them to question my style of worship... which is... different... weird to some people... and messy.. haha ewwwww


Hope that didn't sound harsh, wasn't pointed at anyone. :-)

ps - yeah I'm kinda weird haha

[garyhodges]

Ian - I appreciate your weirdness and totally support you in it.

I don't want to sound like I'm legalistic, and I wholeheartedly support freedom in Christ -- I just feel that in all things spiritual there need to be boundaries and Scripture is our source for that information. I also feel compelled to follow Paul's teaching when he says that things should be done "decently and in order" (1 Cor 14:40). Now how one fellowship of believers interprets that may differ from my interpretation and I'm okay with that, but we must hold Scripture as the standard. It is, afterall, the Word of God.

Another thought is that if we do call it a sacrifice of praise... scripturally that refers to Old Test sacrifice. which is... messy. really messy. like walking between two halves of a sliced butchered and bloodied calf. ewww.


Actually this is in reference to Hebrews 13:15: "Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that confess his name." Not so messy, see?;)

[IanMcIntosh]

I understand what you're saying :-). There's just enough in His Word that makes me think I'll never understand all the different things about Him and that point me towards thinking I'm going to be seeing some crazy stuff anyways. (Paul's glory of kings to search it out, mysteries of God, beyond understanding stuff).

And in context I believe the Heb 13 is extremely messy hahahaha fruit of lips= sacrifice.... ewwwww

hehe :-)

and I love any response... but I probably will be hopping out of this thread soon. I'll definitely read any response, however I feel like I've stated my thoughts clearly. Cheers!

[chipshot0701]

"It didn't make much sense to be either, brother, but the Lord told me to do it." What do you appeal to show him he's wrong?

show him a bill for a new one?